All this wasted talk on Hasayfu. Hay Say Fu hung gar is all a made up lie by wing. He made up the lineage Hay Say Fu Hung Gar so that he could teach more weapon forms and hand forms at his school, which are basically repeats of the ORIGINAL , TRADITIONAL 5 hand forms. That allows him to make more silly tapes on those weird-as-hell " snake form" “crane form” " Leopard Form" etc. Those are very strange forms by the way.
Word, there are originally only 3 hand forms, Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, Fu Hok Seung Ying, and Tit Sin Kuen. No big deal with the other forms. Remember, you can teach any idiot a thousand forms. Forms are nothing compared to training.
Mui Fa Kuen is definately not that Ha Say Fu stuff. Nobody on here said it was.
Ha Say Fu may be fishy, but there are other people in HK and Guangdong that practice it. True, it does give Wing Lam more potential to make money, but if you can do better than him, you should go out and prove him wrong. I’m sure with the right business strategy you could make a lot of money as well.
Word, I’ve asked you in the past for a private email, could you please oblige me.
hung_ga @hotmail.com
Wait,wait,wait people, My brother and I weren’t trying to fall off the subject. The original topic is to share knowledge about Moi Fah. Sorry to stray.
Also, neither Paul nor US had said anything about who’s teachers are better or worse. I have the upmost respect for his lineage CHC. That was never in question.
About the age thing…I mentioned age only in reference to having respect for your elders. I never mentioned anything about Pauls skill or anyones skill level and neither did he.
HOWEVER, GO BACK AND READ HIS TONE OF VOICE. Can you honestly see him questioning a 90 yr old LUM JO to his Face??? I wouldn’t do that. So TigerLilly chill out. Also thank you for sharing your info. on Moi Fah. You were correct, let’s start sharing again.
And no this was never about a “This guy vs That guy” politics. It was a freindly exchange of information that turned into someone giving us advice on HOW TO SAVE FACE.
- If you ask the older generations, or find a way to ask Chiu Wei (while still letting him save face), I’m sure you’ll get the real story.
(Thank you for letting the Chiu family save face but your tone is insulting at best.)
All you other guys dont see that do you? How would you take this?
I/we will not address the troll, word. He is a coward that hides behind a pseudonym. He’s a disgrace to himself and his teacher…if he even has one.
Like we said b4, we have nothing against Paul. My brother was merely sharing info about Moi Fah. We are only responding to Off topic stabs at us in our defence.
Onassis Aka subs
Yeah, it’s all good.
I’m sure our grandmasters wouldnt approve of our behaviour, but they would understand. After all, they were young guys once too.
Actually It was the comment about the 40-50 seniors not giving up after 5 min of Ma. What was the phrase you used? Insulting at best? It’s the older students whose legs aren’t shaking at the end of 45 min of stance work at my kwoon. Sorry that one made my tail turn into a bottle brush.Besides I am very sensitive to mud-slinging. Honestly I came on line to GET AWAY from this. There is so much of this in my city. I was hoping for some useful and interesting info. esp history on my lineage. And just to get back on track, I practiced a two man plumflower set last night for the first time. I enjoyed it very much.I asked why we were learning all these short forms first, instead of tiger/crane or Taming the tiger, and was told that it’s because we learn the Hark Fu Moon system along with Hung Gar. I was wondering how many of you have the two together and does this have to do with lineage?
I stand corrected, My si-gung calls it fu jow pai, but our other sifu calls it hark fu moon, are they the same?
Paul,
What have you heard about a Gung Gee Fook Fu Sparring Set? I heard that YC Wong teaches it.
From what i have heard and seen, Y.C. Wong has a sparring set for every empty hand set that he teaches.
Hi-
Hung Gar was born of Hark Fu Moon (shaolin Black Tiger) the Black Tiger system Of Hark Fu Moon was adapted and became the current Fu Jow Pai.
The tiger system before Hark Fu Moon was the Four Lower Tigers system of Shaolin.
Also known as “Hay Say Fu”.
Hung Gar is the latest iteration of the Shaolin Tiger systems primarily but has inclusions which feed from principles of other shaolin systems and even systems that were not developed at shaolin.
As far as I know it went from Shaolin (Hay Say Fu-four lower tigers) to the village styles of Hark Fu Moon which then was further developed to Fu Jow Pai which was then further devloped to various other tiger systems ,Hak Fu Pai, Bak Fu Pai,etc and ultimately the development of Hung gar in its current state which has differences slight and large dependent upon the lineage of Hung Gar you are studying.
Peace
Kung Lek
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kung Lek:
[b]Hi-
The tiger system before Hark Fu Moon was the Four Lower Tigers system of Shaolin.
Also known as “Hay Say Fu”.
As far as I know it went from Shaolin (Hay Say Fu-four lower tigers) to the village styles of Hark Fu Moon which then was further developed to Fu Jow Pai which was then further devloped to various other tiger systems ,Hak Fu Pai, Bak Fu Pai,etc and ultimately the development of Hung gar in its current state which has differences slight and large dependent upon the lineage of Hung Gar you are studying.
Peace
[/b][/quote]
I do not know what "it" was called in the sil lum period, but "Hai Sei Fu/Hay Say Fu" is the name of the village province. The facts as related from Leung, Wah-Chew is that the son of Hung, Hsi-Gwun/Hung, Hay-Gwoon settled or passed through the village of Hai Sei Fu. Wing Lam was introduced to the system by his former brother-in-law and former wife. He sort of tagged along with them. Of the six hands sets, he learned only two: Tiger & Panther. For twenty years those were all he taught at the SF and Sunnyvale kwoons.
From what I know about history, Hung Hei Guen’s son, Hung Man Ting, practiced southern shaolin (aka Nam Kuen, aka Hung Kuen, aka Hung Gar, etc…) Perhaps he may have taught a little bit of kung fu in his travels, and his “students” may have put their own ideas or flavor into it. This might explain ha say fu’s story.
Not commenting on the effectiveness or legitimacy of ha say fu, I believe it was evolved from hung gar, same as many other “tiger” themed styles. White tiger (bak fu pai) and Fu Jow Pai (tiger claw style) are all recent inventions with colorful histories, but in reality, they are based on a few techniques and ideas from southern shaolin / hung gar. Sifu Wong Kiew Kit of Malaysia also supports this claim.
Much of the village kung fu in southern china claims to be southern shaolin or go by the name of hung gar. Often what happened in the old days was a village would hire a kung fu master to teach the villagers martial arts for a short time, or the village might send a few people to go learn from a master. Often, the “master” was the only person around with any kung fu knowledge, which was usually very limited. Because of this you have all kinds of people with their own versions of styles, their own unique styles of kung fu, with little or no quality control. Just by looking at all the different types of so called hung gar/southern shaolin, you can see some of it isn’t as “authentic” as others.
I know that San Dong Hak Fu (Shantung Black Tiger) became very famous for just specializing in the few tiger moves, and created their own style/school/group quite a while ago.
From what my sifu has told me, there is a gung ji fook fu doy dar (taming the tiger sparring set). Basically, it isn’t even a “form”, just a collection of very simple drills and techniqes. His opinion is to rather spend time on three star blocking, or Fu Hok Doy Dar.
I have noticed recently that on Lam Jo’s son’s site, they claim that their father created fu hok doy dar. I also believe this to be false. Didn’t Wong Fei Hung choreograph this set with the help of Lam Sai Wing? Perhaps Lam Jo created his own version as well?
In the days of southern shaolin, I don’t think ha say fu, sandong hak fu, or any of the other styles existed.
If someone specialized in tiger techniques, that is what they specialized in. The still practiced shaolin kung fu, or some family style.
hi-
correct me if i’m wrong but:
hay=lower
say=four(4)
fu=tiger
this is of course the cantonese but is this not the meaning? i have never heard of a village called hay say fu, it’s interesting though.
peace
Kung Lek
I dont know, but I wouldnt be surprised …some villages and places in China have some pretty wierd names.
Anybody on here see that Jet Li movie “Hung Hei Guen”? In English they call it “new legend of shaolin”. It is very loosely based on Hung Hei Guen and friends.
Ahh…finally a wealth of knowledge without any barbs at all. You guys are my heroes. Nearly all my questions were just answered. Many thanks! This thread just brought together all kinds of little bits of info for me. This is kind of interesting, but my kwoon seems to have a lot of women. Half of them are in the medical or healing field (this includes me)So it was very interesting to find out a little more about Mok Gwai Lan&Wong Fai Hung being involved in the healing arts.I actually have the Dit Da Jow recipe from them, given to me by my Sifu.
Jeez Tigerlilly…all you had to do was wait for it. Or you coulda asked directly!
Bringing an old thread back to life…
here are 2 versions of mui fah kuen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sc6bINLgJg
this one is Lau Family version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtjpaa-tcxs
as a sidenote Hung Hei Goons son Hung Man Tin was made up by Lau Kar Leung for the movie executioners from shaolin:D
i did not read the whole previous discussion, but as far as i know (as i heard from different people coming form LSW lineage, eg. Wong Lei’s stuudents and grandstudents):
mui fa kyun was choreographed by Bun Gwaiyat sifu, who has studied under Lam Saiwing and Lam Jou
wu dip jeung was choreographed by Leung Winghang, student of Lam Saiwing
no Lam Saiwing, no comitte of Hung Kyun sifu’s, no Jing Mou Association etc.
“mui fa kyun was choreographed by Bun Gwaiyat sifu, who has studied under Lam Saiwing and Lam Jou”
Choreographed, but not created. I have seen a practitioner from a “non-Hong Kong” Hung-Ga lineage perform a set that was extremely similar, although played alot more aggressive with more forward movement, as opposed to a back and forth type of play. His line, although from Wong Fei-Hung, did NOT come through Lam Sai-Wing. I believe it was through Malaysia.
I concur with Pm post regarding Mui fa.
I learned the set from my first sifu who was a student of John leong. he said the same thing PM did.
Also, to clear up any debate about my Sifus (YC Wong) two sets. We have only 2 empty hands set, Gung gee and Fu hok. Both are practiced equally. The gung gee was choreographed by Lam sai wing and Fu hok by Sigung Lam jo. The rest of our 2 man forms are weapon sets.
As to the history lesson Paul has presented. In my nearly 20 years of practicing Hung gar, none of what Paul presents is anywhere near the truth of what I have heard from a variety of lineages. I would agree more with what Haysafu has presented.
Paul, I find that you are not showing good moral character in this matter. Hung gar has always been know for practioners that take the high road. Haysafu, is a knowledgable and good guy. I have met him. You have attacked him and his families character with your truely insulting posts. You may not agree with Haysafu, but that does not give you the right to flame his kung fu family.
You, sir are guilty of bad manners. If anyone is losing face, it is YOU and your family by your insulting tone and remarks. In the old days, such talk would have resulted in someone “showing up at your door” and you getting the s**t beat out of you.
Also when it boils down to it, who cares who trained with who? Good Kung fu is Good kung fu. It is the skill that really matters, not the history.
We all know that there are issues between some of our Sifu’s. That was made clear many years ago on this board and the former southern fist forum. They have cleared the air so to speak between them. Everybody show respect to other and these issues for the most part have been resolved between our sifus. Let us not show poor communtiy spirit by getting into things that have nothing to do with us.