he11 i thought we were debasing this thread into the usual drivel driven dead horse stuff. 
from what I gather to your question..
No…
[QUOTE=Vankuen;1027879]So have you guys concluded that from a wing chun standpoint that there are no answers to those attacks? Or are you still deliberating on that one?[/QUOTE]
Certain Chun attributes tactics may apply.. For example facing.. If you constantly work to face them, to issue force into their center and work to maintain your ability to attack can go a long way.. If you are constantly re-facing them they’ll have a really hard time putting on a RNC.
There may well be ideas useful in the art for these things but in my understanding of the art it does not grapple.. And as such once you are grappling Chun can’t defeat it since it doesn’t grapple in the conventional sense. The idea is to unleash power and break structure so they don’t have a chance to do their grappling..
In cases where folks must grapple it’s best to train grappling–and train Chun against grapplers.
I think you are mistaking free style or college wrestling for catch wrestling. Think of all the different styles of wrestling, grecco, free-style, submissions etc. This is catch, you won by pin or submission. Hence they used to be called “hookers” as you hook the hold, “rippers” were the more dirty ones. Lots of neck cranks, arm bars, figure fours, leg/ankle/toe locks, throws, takedowns, boxing etc.
Story goes it started in england and was developed by people being taken on the navy ships and going to other countries, the wrestlers learnt different things and brought it back and mixed it all togeather. The strength and conditioning excerises are mainly indian based,ie sunasuns, twin mace etc. It also
It was taught to the japanese who mixed it with kickboxing and made shootfighting. Its alot more then just pinning a person.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1027852]“well really wrestling has no major escapes”…(except for submission wrestling)…!!!
You’ve got to be kidding, right?
ALL WRESTLING has some great escapes, m1k3, especially amateur free style - which IS cacc - but without the submissions.[/QUOTE]
Uhhh, Victor, it wasn’t me who said wrestling doesn’t have escapes, great or otherwise. I was an amateur folkstyle wrestler in high school.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1027852]“well really wrestling has no major escapes”…(except for submission wrestling)…!!!
You’ve got to be kidding, right?
ALL WRESTLING has some great escapes, m1k3, especially amateur free style - which IS cacc - but without the submissions.[/QUOTE]
Ah my friend you have no idea again what your talking about again. 
I try to cross train with Greco, freestyle and Olympic (anyone who can show me anything). I don’t do if often and I normally have to get the rules refreshed but pin normally equals a win. You don’t escape from a pin if you have lost.. you start over or you get off the mat.
Even in Olympic Judo a pin for (I think 40 seconds?? don’t remember) equal a win.
Judo has escapes because the pinned combatant has the chance to still fight once they are pinned (for a descent amount of time). That is why you will see many Judokas “stall” by just holding and pinning. The idea is normally in Olympic Judo you get the win or you get stood up if its not a clean pin.
Wrestling escape:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfBvTeQcP_A&feature=fvsr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTWpPld4zLM
a wrestling “quick” pin wins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG7zCk8bGt8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDigVAUaPpE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFXb6K6F_4M&NR=1
again a short pin equals a win, so as the person pinning I need to use all my strength to pin and hold for a short time. The person being pinned whole job is to do everything outside of giving the guy a Blow job, to not get pinned.
I’m not saying wrestling sucks or that one idea is better than the other. They are two different skills, and two different sports. All sports will find that techniques and styles will be geared to the rules.
I’m no expert on wrestling, and I’m probably going to say something wrong about the rules.. but I have just a little more experience than you.
Again I love Catch, I have nothing against it at all.. I don’t like Tony Cecchine.. he is a fraud and its a well known fact.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1027860]But as more free style wrestlers learn submissions - things should get very interesting.[/QUOTE]
you act like this is just about to happen…this has been going on for about 20 years already, look at matt hughes, koscheck, etc, hell look at coleman, kerr from years ago, the evolution has already happened and they didnt go to a catch school to learn they went to BJJ teachers get over it
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1027877]Now you can see why Victor can’t tell the difference between moves that work and ones that don’t.[/QUOTE]
lol i cant believe he is a fan of that guy and spent so many years championing him, hes a joke and no wonder tony always cried off competing citing back injuries…he would have got eaten alive out there.
and yet still made money of people who should know better:eek:
[QUOTE=Frost;1027990]you act like this is just about to happen…this has been going on for about 20 years already, look at matt hughes, koscheck, etc, hell look at coleman, kerr from years ago, the evolution has already happened and they didnt go to a catch school to learn they went to BJJ teachers get over it[/QUOTE]
There’s a reason so many competitive wrestlers transition to bjj or sub grappling and not catch.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1028032]There’s a reason so many competitive wrestlers transition to bjj or sub grappling and not catch.[/QUOTE]
i know that, you know that, they know that, pretty much anyone who has competed knows that…but someone has a hard time understanding that and is still waiting for the revolution…
I’m LONG done having to defend Tony Cecchine (or myself) - as regards cacc wrestling.
I know what I can do (and what I know)…and I know what Tony C’s strengths and weaknesses are.
You guys are just NOT going to drag me into another one of these clown troll threads - no matter how much people like Robert Chu may have been hoping it would turn into that. Sorry.
I have numerous things to take care of at this point in my life - and horse5hit threads are just not part of the program.
I will leave you with one thought, however.
Josh Barnett thinks highly of Tony Cecchine’s catch knowledge and skill - and has said so on a number of martial art forum chat rooms over the last 6-7 years.
Erik Paulson is also on record for the same thing.
Take it up with them.
[QUOTE=anerlich;1027733]Is there a mirror in your house?[/QUOTE]
And of course I could expect this comeback from you. I only see a hand full of people posting on these forums, so this is not a large enough cross section of people to really generate a reasonable concensus. Most of the people,(but not all) that post on the wc forum are wannabies, trying to hybridize it with boxing or some such.
I can count the regulars on one hand mostly, and on the other hand the simi regulars, so I am not really concerned with your opinions.
I am not really concerned with your opinions.
Then there was no need for your reply.
i know that, you know that, they know that, pretty much anyone who has competed knows that…but someone has a hard time understanding that and is still waiting for the revolution…
revolution… heheh… evolution!
some people are scared of change… plain and simple truth.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1028095]I’m LONG done having to defend Tony Cecchine (or myself) - as regards cacc wrestling.
I know what I can do (and what I know)…and I know what Tony C’s strengths and weaknesses are.
You guys are just NOT going to drag me into another one of these clown troll threads - no matter how much people like Robert Chu may have been hoping it would turn into that. Sorry.
I have numerous things to take care of at this point in my life - and horse5hit threads are just not part of the program.
I will leave you with one thought, however.
Josh Barnett thinks highly of Tony Cecchine’s catch knowledge and skill - and has said so on a number of martial art forum chat rooms over the last 6-7 years.
Erik Paulson is also on record for the same thing.
Take it up with them.[/QUOTE]
No trolling - just seeing what fellow WCK people think of scenarios like this. I think one needs grappling knowledge in situations like these and its fairly easy to be caught in these.
I don’t think its so easy to get into these postions unless you make a mistake or want to be there. We have seen people able to stuff takedowns etc, to stop getting into these positions.
I’m with alan using the catch/bjj
[QUOTE=bennyvt;1028328]I don’t think its so easy to get into these postions unless you make a mistake or want to be there. We have seen people able to stuff takedowns etc, to stop getting into these positions.
I’m with alan using the catch/bjj[/QUOTE]
The grappler has to do his job, we have ours to do.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;1028328]I don’t think its so easy to get into these postions unless you make a mistake or want to be there. We have seen people able to stuff takedowns etc, to stop getting into these positions.
I’m with alan using the catch/bjj[/QUOTE]
in fact it is easy to get someone in those positions, most stand up fighters are easy to take down, especially those with forward momentum and an upright stance (like some wing chun schools)
the only guys that can really stop committed takedowns have studied wrestling or judo
now, i’m gonna put myself out there so don’t lambast me too much, i’ve only heard this casually in passing and may have misunderstood it.
but wasn’t it true that wing chun was typically taught later on in someone’s martial art career if you believe it came from shaolin, or if actual soldiers/warriors used it in combat? (wing chun being used to enhance what they already knew and get people ready to fight quickly)
if this is correct, would it be safe to assume that wing chun assumes you already know how to deal with these things (or that it’s not a huge risk due to the kind of fight)? maybe wing chun does have a ground game scenario, i haven’t seen it as i’m a newer student. or maybe wing chun doesn’t have an answer. if you’re planning on getting into a ground fight or think it’s a good chance for you, even if your wing chun has it, but it going to take too long to be shown it, wouldn’t it be a good idea to go ahead and train somewhere that has the answers for that? it doesn’t look too complicated to learn.
sorry, kinda rantish.
I have an idea. Let’s hop on over to the BJJ forums and ask them how they would deal with this, using their BJJ:
http://www.allauthentic.com/images/products/MW-16A1171152665.jpg
[QUOTE=couch;1028488]I have an idea. Let’s hop on over to the BJJ forums and ask them how they would deal with this, using their BJJ:
http://www.allauthentic.com/images/products/MW-16A1171152665.jpg[/QUOTE]
cover crash in trip and comence beat down
or shock they would say learn boxing if you want to be well rounded