How much Hop-Ga is in your Hung-Ga?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1112595]so..let’s take this further.
What drills, training methods, theories, techniques and concepts from
Lama/Hop-Ga/Bak-Hok do you employ in your training?

Personally, I feel it would be wasteful to absorb techniques from such a rich, effective system as this, and only have a few technique that only resemble the art on the surface.
IMHO, there is a lot of wasted potential in Hung-Ga these days. The art has become a mere shadow of its former self.[/QUOTE]

I agree that HG has become a “shadow” of what it used to be, but I am not sure that just because systems SHARE things that it meas THAT much ( though it does mean something).
I’ve seen a few different types of Lama/lionsroar and though they obviously share things the are also not “the same”.

The one thing that they do share is that they start off “big” and end up “small” ( or long and short if you prefer).

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agreed. What I should clarify is that knowing the techniques and knowing how to use them to their fullest potential are two different things.

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[QUOTE=PM;1112509]

most people quickly assume Wong Yanlam and Wong Keying/Wong Feihung relationship and influence, but so far i have not seen a single reliable Chinese source having a proof.

[/QUOTE]

Lam Jo knew about it, and talked about it a lot, heard that from YC Wong

[QUOTE=PM;1112509]

i persdonally think that the Ten Tigers of Gwongdung story is made up

[/QUOTE]

It certainly wasn’t like the Shaw Bros movie and it wasn’t really an “organization” but it certainly DID exist

There doesn’t seem much controversy in saying well established teacers of the same period influeenced eachother

I had a lot of friends from local NYC traditions that I picked stuff up from (Ying Jow Pai, Chat Sing Tong Long, Bak mei, Siu Lam, etc)

[QUOTE=PM;1112509]

old Chinese sources have also no idea- some of them say that the long bridges were adopted by Ji Sin Sim Si after his 3 visits of Gwongdung; the other side of spectrum claims it was Lam Saiwing. one Chinese source even says that Wong Feihung has learned 5 Elements from Lam Fuksing (!) -

[/QUOTE]

By the time anyone even remotely literate began to care about stuff like this, the true story was long gone and lost

Having done Hung from a Dang Fong lineage and “village” hung from a specifically NON WFH lineage, no doubt the changes came from around the WKY / WFH period

See below for more

[QUOTE=PM;1112509]

yes, some of the sources say that one of Tit kiu Saam’s Teachers was “Golden Hook”/Bearded Lei, ie. Sing Lung (thnx for Ross sifu for the assistance identifying this person).

[/QUOTE]

I do believe that Sing Lung was ONE of TKS’s teachers. Thus some of the “long bridge” in Hung came from here

Other came from Wong Yan Lam

Other probably came from northern systems, from CLF and stuff that the Wong family had access to

[QUOTE=PM;1112509]

in the Tiger and Crane books there is no word about Hap Ga, long bridges are atributed to Fat Ga Lo Hon Kyun (Fat Ga being other name of the so called Tibetan systems? Lo Hon Kyun being a name of the set?)

[/QUOTE]

politics (and lack of details)

edit: “Faht Ga” means “Buddhist system” and as far as I have seen ,never meant ONE specific system…

Three sequences in Fu Hok come almost move for move from “Siu Lo Han” so maybe you are correct

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1112619]agreed. What I should clarify is that knowing the techniques and knowing how to use them to their fullest potential are two different things.[/QUOTE]

Pressure testing is, as always, the key of taking knowing into doing.
There isn’t just enough done it seems.
I don’t mean competition or that, no ( though that would be the easiest way), I mean taking your HK and using it in a full contact “no rules” environment to see what works and what doesn’t ( for you) and why.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1112636]Pressure testing is, as always, the key of taking knowing into doing.

[/QUOTE]

not WHAT you do

it is HOW you do it

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Ross sifu, thnx a lot, i am saving the info to my Hap Ga & Hung Kyun file

stupid me, i did not ask my sigung (Lam Jou) about it, but next time i will!

27

Who these people were can be traced back to the poems in Loy Batt Moon.

Gum Gong gee and Hung ga’s kiu sao also telles you who these guys are.

Dang Gum Toe of Guangzhou was a Hung ga teacher, his son leanred his Hung Ga but Dang Gum Toe also was fortunate to have his son learn Hop Ga.

Today Dang Jan Kwong promotes Hop Ga not so much Hung Ga.

Here is talks about the Gum Gong gee hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQkO2H8J2sM&playnext=1&list=PL130EAD7272E425CA

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glad to see the the southern forum stabilize at least.

TenTigers I have some questions regarding Hung Kuen but I figured best if I just send you a PM or something as it is not that complex, if you have the time to spare.

cheers

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I believe the answer is zero.

At least for me. I realized the distinct lack of that flavour when I started learning another style of black tiger. It was decidedly more clf and hop gar in flavour.

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[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1112746]glad to see the the southern forum stabilize at least.

TenTigers I have some questions regarding Hung Kuen but I figured best if I just send you a PM or something as it is not that complex, if you have the time to spare.

cheers[/QUOTE]
lookin forward to it :slight_smile:

31

jeez, it’s like pulling teeth…
ok, so…what footwork drills do you use when utilizing the chut sing lien wan kuen?
How do you practice it-I mean, besides verbatim from the set?

to get the ball rolling, when we drill gwa/cup continuously (referred to as figure eight punching)across the floor, we start in a straight line. Once the student has mastered this, we zig-zag the footwork.
Another drill is we surround the student, holding pads, and he attacks with gwa/cup. Each person in turn(randomly)calls out his name and he must turn and strike. The pad holders are moving as he follows.

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None in the village hung gar i learned…but then it was blended with CLF so who knows…anyway im just a MMA guy these days so ill learn you TCMA guys to share the fun…!

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ok, no responses..wtf is happening with this forum?
ok, here’s a question for all you Hop-Ga/Lama,Bak Hok guys.
Do you have any specific “entry techniques,” i.e.“Bridging the gap” techniques, or are you more into allowing the opponent to make the first move?

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1116000]ok, no responses..wtf is happening with this forum?
ok, here’s a question for all you Hop-Ga/Lama,Bak Hok guys.
Do you have any specific “entry techniques,” i.e.“Bridging the gap” techniques, or are you more into allowing the opponent to make the first move?[/QUOTE]

Some Tibetan stylists are more principle led, rather than by technique.
The principle determining the technique. Some but by no means all.
If principle led then Chon (ruthlessness/destruction) is a teleological construct that anticpates its end point: you move to completion - the destruction (ruthlessly) of the ‘target’. Chuen is penetration - of a line or of space. It refers to movement into or from a space to break right through. Jeet is interception, before or on the cusp of a change in structure, It arrests, and disrupts. Sim, is evasion and may be passive, away from contact, or active by operating in the gaps in structure and information processing of the opponent. These principles lead the techniques. The end result can look like Hung Kuen, or Lama Pai or anything else.

Indra.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1116000]…Do you have any specific “entry techniques,” i.e.“Bridging the gap” techniques, or are you more into allowing the opponent to make the first move?[/QUOTE]

In real situations I’m always reactive because I don’t go around attacking people, obviously.

For in-house sparring I like to be aggressive just to get things started. At kicking range a jab is not believable as a means of testing your opponent’s response so I like to use the skipping step found in both bak hok and hop ga. I raise one knee as if to kick, then skip from the platform leg to fake a jab (chyun). Whatever follows is based on the reaction I get. It works pretty well sometimes but gets predictable fast. I’m a hair over 6’ so I usually attack over the guard. Against someone taller I try to go under and side door.

I also like to jam with the left hand and follow with a straight right backfist (kahm sau/ gwa cheui). Doesn’t require so much waist turning and is hard to predict. I learned this originally in hop ga, then was later shown the same thing by my bak sing teacher. A fully extended gwa works okay, too, to get things started. If the range is right I follow immediately with chyun. If not, it’s only a feint, anyway.

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[QUOTE=Indrafist;1116008]…These principles lead the techniques. The end result can look like Hung Kuen, or Lama Pai or anything else.[/QUOTE]

Good points.

Indra, it’s good to see you posting here again.

jd

37

TenTigers,

As far as Hop Ga techniques, the five elements are included in my HG training. They are good stuffs and important. Some of them (fire, water, earth) are emphasied on formation, others (gold, wood) are on shape.

So I think the following Hop Ga techniques are imported into Wong Fei Hung’s style, which is what I am now training:

paau (flinging)

jin (arrow, also called jihk)

chaau (reaping, pulling, gathering)

KC
Hong Kong

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1116000]Do you have any specific “entry techniques,” i.e.“Bridging the gap” techniques, [/QUOTE]
I’m not a Hung-Ga guy but I think the following steps are important during entering. Always try to fight battle in your opponent’s space and not in your space.

You should:

  • build leg bridge first.
  • build temporary arm bridge.
  • build permanent arm bridge.
  • destroy arm bridge, cross arm bridge, enter, and
  • do your stuff …
39

Combination

Hope things re calmer:

In the Lion’s Roar couplet, it specifies, Hop Gar’s combinations?

The original Hop was combination changed to hero.

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[QUOTE=once ronin;1120749]Hope things re calmer:

In the Lion’s Roar couplet, it specifies, Hop Gar’s combinations?

The original Hop was combination changed to hero.[/QUOTE]

NO

you can say it over and over again, but that doesn’t mean it is true :rolleyes: