Hop Ga History Confusion (Deng lineage?)

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

So here’s the thing. I have heard Deng Gum To was the student of Wong Lun, who I was also told was Wong Lum Hoi. In this lineage, Wong Lun is a student of Wong Yan Lum. That would make sense to me. Even if Wong Lum Hoi and Wong Lun were the same student, I have heard from my sifu, that the history he learned was Wong Lum Hoi was student of Wong Yan Lum.

HOWEVER, I was reading an article online in Chinese that listed both Wong Lun and Wong Lum Hoi separately as students of Wong Yan Lum. This was written by a student of the Deng lineage.

My question is, who was Wong Lun and was he the same guy as Wong Lum Hoi?

2

[QUOTE=htowndragon;957124]So here’s the thing. I have heard Deng Gum To was the student of Wong Lun, who I was also told was Wong Lum Hoi. In this lineage, Wong Lun is a student of Wong Yan Lum. That would make sense to me. Even if Wong Lum Hoi and Wong Lun were the same student, I have heard from my sifu, that the history he learned was Wong Lum Hoi was student of Wong Yan Lum.

HOWEVER, I was reading an article online in Chinese that listed both Wong Lun and Wong Lum Hoi separately as students of Wong Yan Lum. This was written by a student of the Deng lineage.

My question is, who was Wong Lun and was he the same guy as Wong Lum Hoi?[/QUOTE]

Two different people.

You and I had this discussion some time ago and I put you wrong, undeniably through my poor understanding of Chinese

3

[QUOTE=htowndragon;957124]So here’s the thing. I have heard Deng Gum To was the student of Wong Lun, who I was also told was Wong Lum Hoi. In this lineage, Wong Lun is a student of Wong Yan Lum. That would make sense to me. Even if Wong Lum Hoi and Wong Lun were the same student, I have heard from my sifu, that the history he learned was Wong Lum Hoi was student of Wong Yan Lum.

HOWEVER, I was reading an article online in Chinese that listed both Wong Lun and Wong Lum Hoi separately as students of Wong Yan Lum. This was written by a student of the Deng lineage.

My question is, who was Wong Lun and was he the same guy as Wong Lum Hoi?[/QUOTE]

Two different people.

You and I had this discussion some time back and I believe I put you wrong, my Chinese is not great!

Sifu David Rogers may be able to answer your query as to who Wong Lun was. Perhaps try contacting him. He’s a member on this board.

Cheers,
David

4

Deng Gum To

thats very similar to what i said when i stubbed my big toe…“dad gum toe!”

5

[QUOTE=hskwarrior;957136]thats very similar to what i said when i stubbed my big toe…“dad gum toe!”[/QUOTE]

No, no, no, that’s a different lineage entirely… :smiley:

6

No, no, no, that’s a different lineage entirely…
]

i wonder if the DENG system and the DANG system are the same? anyone got the characters?

7

yeah. Deng and Dang are just different spellings for the same character.

8

lol i was kidding young brother.

9

[QUOTE=htowndragon;957140]yeah. Deng and Dang are just different spellings for the same character.[/QUOTE]

So I WOULD be correct in saying “Deng it all!” :smiley:

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[QUOTE=htowndragon;957124]…I have heard from my sifu, that the history he learned was Wong Lum Hoi was student of Wong Yan Lum.QUOTE]

Yes and no. Wong Yan Lum and Wong Lum Hoi (no familial relation, they were gung fu brothers, only) were both students under lama Sing Lung. But Lum Hoi was the youngest member of the five Cantonese disciples and had learned for a shorter time than Yan Lum. When Sing Lung died Wong Lum Hoi continued training under Chu Chi Yiu and Wong Yan Lum, so they were both his sihing and his actual teachers. These three remained close friends for the rest of their lives and often shared the same students.

jd

11

Chu chi yiu

Is there anymore info on this guy? Does he have his own line of people outside of Ng Siu Jung?

I really want to trace back to Sing Lung’s original disciples and see what kind of material they got. It’s always cool to dissect the system.

12

Htowndragon:

Wong Lun was Wong Yan Lum’s last disciple.
Wong Lun was the nickname for Wong Geng Choh. They are the same person.
I do not know about Wong Lum Hoi. He is not part of our lineage.

The spelling ‘Deng’ is the pinyin. Many Hong Kong or Cantonese speakers use ‘Tang’ like ‘Tang Fong’ (Wong Fei Hong’s student.) It’s the same character.

I can’t help you with your other questions I’m afraid. I can speak Cantonese but I read very little Chinese.

13

[QUOTE=htowndragon;957223]Is there anymore info on this guy? Does he have his own line of people outside of Ng Siu Jung?[/QUOTE]

I would like to learn this, myself. After 35 years of searching for scraps and tidbits of early lama kyuhn history I still haven’t found any evidence of a surviving lineage for Chu that doesn’t also have either of the Wongs in its pedigree.

He did have students of his own. Besides Wong Lum Hoi, Chu also taught an early lama style to Au Wing Nin. Au wanted to expand his knowledge of the style and later became the senior student of the Ng brothers at about the time Bak Hok was being codified (1920s). This explains why Au’s style of white crane is unique and preserves a conservative and less intricate version of lama compared to Ng Siu Jung’s later students.

A major problem in finding successors of the various branches is that there were at least two major famines in Gwongdung since the beginning of the Sino-Japanese war. War and disease killed many of those involved in the tradition. The cultural revolution supposedly killed many more. Most lineages known today are from third and fourth generation practitioners who fled to Hong Kong and southeast Asia such as those of Ng Siu Jung, Au Wing Nin, Ng Yim Ming, Lok Chee Fu, Teng Jak Ming, students of Choy Yit Gung, etc.,.

It would be interesting to know how many other versions of Hap Ga still exist on the mainland besides the Deng tradition, which, happily, is now represented on this forum.

I really want to trace back to Sing Lung’s original disciples and see what kind of material they got. It’s always cool to dissect the system.

I’m with you there, bro. I hope it is still possible to trace lineages by the morphology of the sets. It’s problematic now, because the styles exploded in creative restructuring during the first half of the 20th century and, as I’ve written before, I’ve yet to see different lineages of Hap Ga or Lama with any sets in common. The situation is only a little better in the White Crane branch, because Ng Siu Jung so actively propagated the system. But even TWC sets with the same name often do not appear to be related. Maybe some were inspired by others and designations such as “lesser” or “greater” were dropped.

Could be worth a graduate thesis, someday.

Be well.

jd

p.s. I was taught that Chu Chi Yu was the senior most of the original five Cantonese students even though Wong Yan Lum became more famous.

14

Pm

Dear John,

I’ve sent you a couple of PMs.

Regards :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Gru Bianca;957355]Dear John,

I’ve sent you a couple of PMs.

Regards :)[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Got them.

Gru, I hope you will add information and corrections to this thread

John

16

Au Wing Ning is a famous guy, but other than Steve Richards group I haven’t seen anyone who practices his material.

How would you compare/contrast the “older lama style” in comparison to our lineage from Ng Yim Ming?

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[QUOTE=htowndragon;957421]Au Wing Ning is a famous guy, but other than Steve Richards group I haven’t seen anyone who practices his material.

How would you compare/contrast the “older lama style” in comparison to our lineage from Ng Yim Ming?[/QUOTE]

Ooh. Good question. Remember, I may not be able to distiguish what my teachers were learning in the 40s and 50s from what I was taught in the 70s and 80s since I learned Hop Ga and Au Wing Nin style TWC from the same teacher.

Cheuk Tse was planning to write a book about Au Wing Nin style White Crane but nothing seems to have come of it. It does show, however, that he thought that Au’s teaching made a unique style. My observation based upon other samples of TWC is that Au’s “style” is pared down. It stresses the “seeds” and is not designed for performance art. Very similar to Ng Yim Ming’s Hop Ga. My take on Au’s system is that he learned “lama kyuhn” first and kept those teachings when he became a student and teacher of White Crane, so it is essentially turn-of-the-century lama style. Cheuk Tse was a student of Ng Siu Jung, first. When grandmaster Ng stopped teaching personally, he sent Cheuk to Au Wing Nin, who, by some accounts, was his senior remaining disciple.

In terms of basic training, our Hop Ga and TWC were the same. This was probably just convenient for our class, which combined both systems, although the Hop Ga sets were taught last among sifu’s curriculum.

One major point of similarity is that the chyun cheui is exactly the same in both systems, with no twisting of the forearm before impact. Ng Yim Ming Hop Ga does have a twisting punch similar to the “slipping” hand of some styles or to Choy Lei Fat’s chaap cheui. In our school, the twist punch was considered an application of chyun, and not a basic seed, iself.

Our essential fists are: gau, chyun, jin, gwa, deng, bin, paau, kap, chau, nau, jaau, and a short uppercut called johng. There is also a short range straight backfist strike in both systems which I never learned a name for, though I think of it as a "chyun-johng."
jd

18

“slipping” punch, is what we call in our line “sin choi” which is similar to the “chaap choi” of choy lee fut. last time i got my terminology mixed up with “sin” and “sow” because hop gar due to a conversation with a deng family hop gar stylist.

thanks for the info! much appreciated.

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interesting stuff.

20

If I am not mistaken Au Wing Nam was famous for his Min loy Cham and if the info I got was correct he was called the King of Min Loy Cham.

Not too sure about his “personal” style of Pak Hok Pai, but I know very well someone who could give me some insight on it.

I’ll ask.