How many systems are there in Jun Fan?...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
21

to clarify…

First off, I think that I can say with a good amount of certainty that the mention of Bruce making research into those 26 different arts is in no way meant to imply that he had a thorough understanding of all those arts and was able to embody their structures altogether in Jun Fan. I think what is actually meant is that he found small aspects or ideas that made sense to him through his research of many of those styles. It is definitely not as if he got so and so technique from pakua, this deadly kick from northern mantis, that secret punch from hsing-I, etc. In actual structure and technique, it is obvious to me that Jun Fan comprises of boxing, wing chun, fencing and an altered form of the basic kicking techniques that are universal to many styles of Gung fu, karate and TKD (you can’t exactly patent a hook kick or a sidekick to any one style). From a technical standpoint, these are the aspects of Jun Fan, as far as I’ve seen. The 26 styles list that I posted earlier was probably simply meant as a reference to all the research Bruce made throughout his growth as a martial artist in his attempts to seek out the universal truths of combat. It was NEVER Bruce’s intention (nor do any JKDC affiliates claim it to be) to have “26 seperate systems of cma all wrapped up in a neat and tidy package and put out as a new art”. In all likelihood, he could probably care less about making the “ultimate Gung fu style” especially considering the fact that his opinion on most of those classical styles (or the way they were being taught) was not too high, to say the least. It was his intention to simply bring his Gung fu skills back to the roots of Gung fu, which is nothing more than the simple, direct, natural and efficient application of fighting technique. To say that he was attempting to create a technically cunning terror of an art through all this added complicated and ornamented mess with a thousand different secret James Bond tricks from a thousand different gung fu styles is to extremely pervert the intentions of his creation. It has been said time and time again, JKD is NOT simply an eclectic style of martial arts.

BTW…

“To make such a statement would equate to the JKD practitioners being the “New Chin Wu” society.
Except for the fact that the chin wu society had different masters with complete arts teaching those arts in a seperate fashion from all the other arts offered by the society.”

I train at Guro Inosanto’s academy in L.A. I just thought that you might like to know that the different martial arts influences over here are all taught within their own complete and separate programs. Jun Fan Gung fu is taught in its own class just as their are fully qualified Muay Thai instructors that teach thai boxing by itself in its own class, just as Shoot Wrestling is taught by a very qualified instructor in its own program, just as a Machado black belt conducts his Machado JJ program by itself. If you want only to study Filipino martial arts by itself, that option is available to you. If you want only to study Bjj, that option is also available to you. If you want to crosstrain in different arts, that option is also available to you. Classes at the academy are definitely not taught as a disorganized hodge podge mishmash of random techniques from a bunch of different systems, which is what you seem to assume JKD training is. If you get to read this, I’m glad that you now know better. Perhaps the next time I see Guro Inosanto I’ll suggest to him that he change the name of his school to “New Ching Wu Academy of Martial arts” LOL!

There is only one martial art.

22

So you’re saying that Inosanto, the defacto kahuna of JKD, doesn’t teach it the way two out of three JKD schools I went to teach it? Which was the hodge podge method. Dan is still the man. I love all the guys who jump on the “Danwagon” and sample the arts that he’s working on mastering. They still don’t get that’s the difference between Inosanto and themselves.

23

Rogue,

I couldn’t agree with you more . :wink:

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT’S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

24

Dan Inosanto

Without question Dan’s the man!
To tell you the truth as far as I see it…
Guro Inosanto has kept it real (Meaning The Concept of JKD)to the point of taking it to the next level… & I’m not just talking about the name of JKD as it’s just a name. Like Bruce Lee said on the last page of theTAO OF JEET KUNE DO<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> [/quote]If people say JEET KUNE DO is different from “this,” then let the name of JEET KUNE DO be wiped out,for that is what it is, just a name Please don’t fuss over it.

Tell’s me that what Guro Dan Inosanto has been & still to this day doing is keeping the art of JEET KUNE DO ALIVE by finding what works for him, & not what works for you or me…
JEET KUNE DO is about you the individual any way you look at it,as my way may not be your way… <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> [/quote]The art of JEET KUNE DO is simply to simplify.It is being oneself;it is reality in its “isness.” Thus,isness is the meaning-having freedom in its primary sense,not limited by attachments,partialization,complexities…
That’s why I feel that he’s taken it to the next level by teaching by example nothing more in short
Dan is the man…

PEACE

RAYNYSC

25

Thaaat’s right!!! Not Sean Madigan. :smiley: :rolleyes: :wink:

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT’S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

26

The problems fighting over JKD

  1. Bruce Lee is dead.

  2. Bruce Lee was still developing his ideas until the time of his death.

  3. Nobody knows where Bruce Lee would have ended up with his ideas, not Dan, not Linda, nobody. He might have done a total about face and went traditional, he may have dropped MA all together and become a movie director or he may now be running a chain of succesful MacDojo/Aerobic studios and selling videos on Homeshopping channel.

JKD is worth discussing but it’s certainly not worth fighting over.

27

it doesn’t matter how many systems

what matters is what helps you acheive your full potential. these sort of discussions are what i believe bruce wanted to avoid that is why he did not want to give jkd a name because then it became something that people would try to quantify and break down. i’ve never studied with a jkd instructor but i’ve read bruce’s work and have been influenced by it. my background was boxing then wing chun then muay thai now i study taiji quan. But i havn’t dismissed the other training i’ve had now that i do taiji i bring all that i’ve learnt together and allow myself the freedom to experiment and play with techniques when training. the last sentence in the toa of jeet kune do goes like this - If people say jeet kune do is different from “this” or from “that” then let the name of jeet kune do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don’t fuss over it.
R.I.P bruce

28

A source of confusion

If JKD is not a STYLE as Bruce said..but rather an evolvement of personal expression and liberation that is a constant PROCESS..then isn’t it really impossible to say that “JKD consists of-------,------, and ------,etc.” since as a concept it can really use ANY “system” to achieve it’s end?

29

Erasmus,

I agree with your standpoint on JKD, but the original question was on Jun Fan Gung fu, not Jeet Kune Do.

30

Good Point there Rage but the problem here is the fact that many people acknowledge Jun Fan as Jeet Kune Do. & by doing so at time’s may become confused as to what Jeet Kune Do is?
Ultimately many people don’t realize that the individual is the most important part of Jeet Kune Do. After all Jeet Kune Do is nothing more than a name…

PEACE
RAYNYSC

31

Fencing is a TREMENDOUS part of Jun Fan Gung Fu.
I am unable at this time to make an extansive analysis, but if you go to www.fencing.net and then re read the Tao of JKD you will see the following concepts are very obviously fencing terms and are not found in Wing Chun or Boxing.
While somethings are found in all three (parry), the way it is described in the Tao is very obviously fencing in scope:

Riposte,
Compound riposte,
Parry,
Beat,
On Guard Stance,
Strong Side Forward,
Lunge,
feint,
1st/2nd Attack
Advance/retreat
recovery
beat/press/fient
engagement
changes of engagement to feint

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Also,

In the "grappling sections of the Tao there are a significant numbers of locks and holds that are not found in Wing Chun ( and certainly not in Boxing or fencing!) that are from Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Catch as Catch can Wrestling, Freestyle wrestling, Judo and Chin Na’

(You can see a “John Smith Single” takedown on the Hapkido guy in Game of Death. (Not in WC/B?Fencing)

(for example–The Step over Toe Hold is a catch wrestling move and the Clock choke (lapel Choke) is from Judo. I have not seen either taught in Wing Chun. A few of the armplocks, however, are in Wing Chun. There is a great out of print book on wing chun grappling that was very eye opening.
It was first published before the UFC explosion, so it was not revisionist history.)

When I studies OJKD we did a lot of trapping and kickboxing into locking. These were from Bruce’s own curriculum so he did definitely incorporate them.

Bruce Studied Tai Chi and showed wonderful form on the “lost interview” and expressed his love for it, but I am not sure if Tai Chi made it into the curriculum.

There are NUMEROUS kicks from Savate in Jun Fan Gung Fu that are not found in WC. I believe a lot of the “flashier” kicks in JF come from TKD/Savate/And Mantis. (Actually, this has been validated by a number of sources.)
The Sweep Kick, the spin, and the back spin kick are NOT wing chun! The Pak tek (slap kick) very Savate oriented!
the Cane bruce and dan use for beginning the game of death fight scene is from Savate. (don’t know the french name.)

Bruce lee and Dan played with Football equipment and modified made modified Thai pads but gave up on it because neither had the proper instruction in Muay Thai (per a Dan inosanto interview)
Bruce’s own notes in the Tao of JKD and one of th John Little Books show bruce’s own had drawing of Muay Thai. Hell, Fists of FUry was filmed in Thailand! He couldn’t avoid it if he tried as Muay Thai is a CULTURAL thingy in Thailand!

in game of death, the Nunchunk scene sees Bruce repeatedly strike Dan Inosanto’s hand. In Chinese Connection, the chuks repeatedly strike the feet of the Japanese baddies. This is the Fillipino concept of DEFANGING the Snake. NEVER does bruce BLOCK with the chucks!

In Game of death, Bruce and dan have an exchange that is a parody of Kali challenge matches.

There is Super 8 footage bootlegged with dan demo’ing sticks at Ed Parker’s show while he and Bruce where demo-ing.

Bruce lee uses the double Kali sticks in his movies several times.

There are numerous photo’s of Bruce with Dan and Kali sticks are present.

I have seen a photo of Bruce lee in a gi training judo!

Some of the Trapping is dis similar from some WC trapping as it is hybrided with Southern Mantis trapping. I believe The “harmonious Spring” energy drill is a mantis influence.

Hey, Bruce had 2,000 martial arts books!

he had to have bought them for a reason!

GOOD TRAINING TO EVERYONE!

32

HHH

You mention mantis in the part with the kicks. In what way is it an influence?

33

So, not trying to be rude but why does it even matter? If we agree (and it seems we do) about JKD being self expression at its finest and that body mechanics are the same no matter what art they are contained in… well, what’s the big deal?

My JKD isn’t your JKD. To quote someone famous. :wink: I personally go with the refined (read simple) method.

And I think some of you are taking this opportunity to “pot shot” at Sean. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Let’s be civil about our disagreements pls.

34

Hello all,

I find it ironic that the same person that said he wanted to “hear the Jun Fan” side of this later jumps Sean’s case for simply stating the “Jun Fan” side of this.

Anyway, what did Jun Fan himself say about the arts that made up what he was doing?

Quote:
I’m having a gung fu system drawn up – this system is a combination of chiefly Wing Chun, fencing, and boxing. As for gun fu training, I’ll have them written down when it is finished. Boy it will be it!
End quote:

That’s taken from Jeet Kune Do, Commentaries on the Martial Way page 47.

That’s the “Jun Fan” side of this from Jun Fan himself. Does this mean that what Dan does is wrong? Of course not! In fact I’m no longer sure if what Dan does is any different from what many “original” JKD people do except for in terms of terminology. At Dan Inosanto’s excellent martial arts website there is a class schedule for his school. Sure there are classes on Filipino martial arts, shoot wrestling, stickfighting and even Yoga. But there are also classes on Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jun Fan Kickboxing. From what I’ve heard from those that attend those classed arts such as Kali, Silat ect are NOT a part of what is taught at that time! What is taught is what some of us call “Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do” or “Orginal Jeet Kune Do” or simply “Jeet Kune Do”. Kevin Seamen’s great book Jun Fan Gung Fu : Seeking the path of Jeet Kune Do also bears this out. As most of you know Kevin Seamen is certified under Dan Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu. Dan Inosanto endorses this book. When I read through it I didn’t see any Kali, Silat or Dumog in it. I saw the same Wing Chun, boxing, fencing influenced techniques that I train in when I do what I call “Jeet Kune Do”. So if all can agree that “what you call Jun Fan Gung Fu is what I call Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do” then the whole silly “concepts versus original” arguments can come to an abrupt halt.

Regards,

John M. Drake

35

Hey, about my question a couple of posts ago…anyone?
(just to bring it on the front page again)

36

Originally posted by chen zhen
Hey, about my question a couple of posts ago…anyone?
(just to bring it on the front page again)

Hello Chen,

Bruce Lee apparently trained with Praying Mantis grandmaster Mark Foon. Here is a link to the interview with Master Mark regarding Bruce Lee’s training with him.

http://members.aol.com/martyeisen/mantis/Lee.htm

And here is a quote from that interview regarding kicking.

ME: What did Bruce Lee think about Wing Chun?

GFM: He thought it ws a very good system. However, it specialized in close in fighting. Its footwork was not varied enough and there were not enough kicks. He considered modifying Wing Chun to include these elements.

ME: Praying Mantis is a southern system. Does it have many kicks?

GFM: Praying Mantis has as many kicks as most northern systems or Taekwondo. The kicks fascinated Bruce. In fact, the sweeping front kick to the opponent’s lower leg appears in many of his movies.

But there were other things that Bruce apparently like about Praying Mantis as you can see from the interview. Hope that helps.

Regards,

John M. Drake

37

Thanks JMD, but actually I thought It was Northern Mantis that was mentioned, since It was mentioned together with other styles featuring high kicking (TKD, Savate)
and thanks for the link!

38

Did I missed something?..

Hey Drake,
So where did southern or even the northern 7 mantis come from if Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do is made up of just Wing Chun,Fencing & Boxing?..:smiley:

Hey Chen,
Bruce was also exposed to the Northern 7 Star Mantis system as well… I mean think about it Drake?..
Bruce was in Hong Kong up untill 1958 before he came the USA which tells me that he was exposed to the Jing Mo Association from Hong Kong the same Jing Mo that came over from China… Ever heard of Fak Yuen Gap Just in case you haven’t he was the head Instructor of Jing Mo, In fact Bruce’s chinese connection was base on the Jing Mo & the death of Fak Yuen Gap!.. (Right Chen Zhen) Which by the way tought The Nortern 7star mantis system as well as The Northern Eagles claw system just to name a few…:smiley:

Peace

39

Hey Ray, I would also include that in the book Tao of Gung Fu is written in the back that at demonstratations and Karate tournaments he would demonstrate Southern AND Northern Praying Mantis forms as well as the Jeet Kune form featured in Jing Mo schools so you’r probably right. There’s also pictures of him with a three section staff featured in northern systems.
But WHO he trained with and HOW LONG he trained Jing Mo is not known…

40

Bruce Lee learned Jing Mo forms, including a few northern mantis forms from Liu Jin Dong/Shiu Hong Sang. This Sifu studied at Jing Mo. He learned 7 Star Praying Mantis from the famous Law Kwong Yuk who was the Grandmaster of the system at the time and in direct line to the founder of the system , Wang Lang. He was also a Sifu of the Hung Gar system.

The following is a quote that readers may find interesting.

“In July, 1974, many Australian newspapers gave prominent reports on the visit of a Kung Fu expert, and hailed him as the master of the Chinese art of Kung Fu. Special coverages and features were given to the fact that he coached Bruce Lee in Jeet Kuen Kung Fu. Who is this person? He is none other than Sifu Shiu Hon Sang, a respected figure in the Kung Fu circle.”

…and another,

“Sifu Hon Sang demonstrating Jeet Kuen technique. From here it can be imagined that apart from Wing Chun techniques, the forms of Bruce Lee’s Jeet Kune Do also contain essence of the principles of Jeet Kuen.”
-----REAL KUNG FU MAGAZINE

As a sidenote, the northern Mantis system has a form by the same name so the term is not something that is new or unique to BL’s system. It is obvious that he borrowed the term and it’s concepts from other sources (Chinese Kung Fu).

Peace.