You can train “alive” without training full contact. I can hit you hard enough to let you know you’ve been hit without doing serious damage.
Indeed. I should have restricted my comments to certain aspects of training in which i cannot actively participate.
of course, I don’t think 100% alive training is completely conducive to becoming skilled at combat using a “classical” system (there’s a thread about training methodologies in the JKD forum). As such, seeing as how I gravitate towards classical fighting methods, SBG and related training is not something I would include in a permanent training regimen.
of course, I don’t think 100% alive training is completely conducive to becoming skilled at combat using a “classical” system
Can you explain why that is?
Too much is made of this “alive” buzz word. You have to, at one point , learn the technique first before you throw the chaos factor in. Contact is whats needed to make things “real”.
It should be a progression.
It not that aliveness is a bad thing, its that aliveness is being introduced as if its some new concept. There is a reason people buy whats “new and improved” even its the same old stuff wrapped in a shiny new box. Which is a sad refection on the MA sceen. Since it implies that some schools are in fact doing techniques on “Mr. Frozen Man”. Which they are. And of which isn’t “traditional” by any means. Side note, when I was coming up the word “traditional” was simply a term used to differentiate the other fighting styles from modern Wushu. Now its become some ugly catch all.
To me, aliveness is a matter of course. When we drill tactics and techniques its always first the slow “how to”. THEN we step it up with broken rythms, surprise and resistance. The whole point of a technique should be to get a person out of his resistant base enough so he can’t resist. Or to open a hole enough to strike where he can’t defend.
Finally ending with sparring to get that final bit of chaos and contact.
To harp on a word, even when people are agreeing with you indirectly, is obsessive.
Another golden post! This thread rocks keep it up!
Originally posted by LeeCasebolt
Can you explain why that is?
I’m also interested in knowing why.
“Aliveness” is probably an overused buzzword, and you do usually need to learn a technique alone before you can train it with aliveness. However, this “learning it on your own” step should not take very long, and by “not very long,” I mean not more than a few minutes. If it takes you longer than a few minutes to learn it, it’s probably classified as a “super-secret-deadly-ninja-too-deadly-for-the-ring” technique that wouldn’t work in a real fight anyway.
Originally posted by IronFist
However, this “learning it on your own” step should not take very long, and by “not very long,” I mean not more than a few minutes. If it takes you longer than a few minutes to learn it, it’s probably classified as a “super-secret-deadly-ninja-too-deadly-for-the-ring” technique that wouldn’t work in a real fight anyway.
Or you just haven’t encountered the situation for which it was intended.
I suppose. I don’t suppose many people would encounter a situation where their attacker throws his punch and leaves it out there, tho.
Originally posted by IronFist
I suppose. I don’t suppose many people would encounter a situation where their attacker throws his punch and leaves it out there, tho.
Who trains like that?
Answer, beginners.
And why do the train like that?
Because their reflexes are not fast enough to react with something at full speed (there are “naturals” who are the exception).
So you have to start somewhere.
Do you start with a full speed punch or do you start with something that’s easier to deal with…like leaving an arm out to give the student something to block on?
Both methods have there upsides and drawbacks. The full speed punch smacks the student in the head a few times and he learns very quickly to keep his hands up.
However, as much as this more approximates a real life encounter, you can also develop bad habits this way.
What I mean by bad habits is, for example, deflecting an attack that sets you up in a bad way for a follow up attack. (This might be Ok when it’s beginner on beginner, but when you meet someone that can deflect and put themselves in the better position than you…then you have a very big problem. )
Kung fu is much more logical than learning this way. You learn sequences that teach you to deflect so that you are still in an advantageous position 10 moves down the line. Its fighting ahead of the game.
On the other hand…
Advantage: The slow motion punch presents not as much risk but the student can work on more effectively setting up his defense and counter.
Obviously, the problem is when students take this type of training to approximate a real life situation…which that comes much faster and harder. Then its reality check time. How well, did they learn the move? How well can they apply it? Does it need to be modified from the exact form?
(You see some so-called “masters” teaching entirely this way because they probably never reached the higher levels of training and are not really qualified to teach.)
But this is the stuff of beginners. Both of my kung fu teachers were taught to be very, very fast in the later stages of training.
My CLF sifu’s favorite style of fighting is to never even block your attack. He simply moves out of the way at an off angle and pummels you before you know what hit you. (But he doesn’t teach this to beginners.)
My Hung Ga Sifu Eddie Lane (student of Buck Sam Kong) used to have arrows shot at him by his teacher. Yes, he had to be very fast.
The low levels, yes, you go slow and work on form and strategy. The higher levels you work on reaction time when you already have the basics in place.
But I follow the traditional method of form first and free hand later. Some people choose not to.
I love forms.
They are fun to do, they work you out and they teach you technique in an integrated format. Not just “how do you do this move” but also “under what circumstances should this move be used” can be communicated in a form if the form is taught correctly. That means that a group of different form related activities should be performed:
1: Break it down, teach one section at a time.
2: Build it up - drill the entire form over and over and over and over ad nauseum.
3: Break it down again - drill individual moves or small sets of moves from within the form. Focus on application.
4: Apply it - Start with cooperative applications. Over the course of a training session (and a training career) gradually increase the level of resistance during the sparring drills.
5: Isolate in application - Drill with limited sparring (I believe this was mentioned by somebody in a previous post) limit people to only using one technique or group of techniques. Mix it up, one attacker, one defender, etc.
Now I have also noticed that even at very good schools some people make certain mistakes with forms. Often these happen because a: the Sifu can only be one place at a time. b: people who are new to martial arts tend to form opinions on their own that take time and training to break down, many of these people quit before they learn that they were wrong and go on to disseminate misinformation to everyone they meet. These mistakes include:
“But I already learned it” - Learning the basic movements of the form is the first step to applying it, not the last. People who “learn” a form and then move on to the next before they have gained anything from the form are making a cardinal mistake. They should be encouraged to practice what they already believe the know more.
Sloppy form work - Often this goes hand in hand with believing that you are done with a form. You see people practicing a form with an arm bar/knee kick move and the arm bar looks like they are wrestling with a piece of wet pasts and the kick is more of an ankle sweep than a knee kick but is positioned so poorly that they would never actually sweep an opponent’s foot. Well, you get the point.
“Forms are stupid” - A few things on this.
First it suggests impatience and vanity on the part of the person who expresses this shallow opinion. Forms are an important part of martial arts training. Second it is selling short the history, heritage and nature of martial art If it were not an art form as well as a fighting system we would just call it fighting.
“Forms are everything you ever need to learn” - Mabey if all you want to be is a dancer. Forms empty of meaning are just movements through space, nothing more, nothing less. In addition, a person who ignores sparring, conditioning and physical fitness activities will never become a good fighter and being a good fighter is one of the goals of most martial artists. Forms are an important tool but they are in the end just one tool of many used in the education of a martial artist.
Originally posted by LeeCasebolt
Can you explain why that is?
I think SifuAbel’s post pretty much explains that.
saam mo kiu
originally posted by Water Dragon
I’m curious as to what defines “real.”
Water Dragon,
Your question is the starting point for us all. In terms of Human anatomy there are 4 ranges of hand to hand combat. That is real. Portraying these 4 ranges of combat as anything else such as categories of style, arts of ethnicity, cultural dispositions and alike are what seem to be moving us (gung wu) away from reality.
originally posted by premier
How do you make your training “real”
- Understand what is real.
- Study principle over technique.
- Train in a way that challenges your ability to comprehend against your ability to apply.
- Find an experienced teacher.