I see images online of these “shaolin kung fu” schools. and they are showing self defense techniques using monkey postures and everything… yeah its good for flash.
but when you train the techniques from the forms, how realistic to you train it? do you stop you punch a foot away from your partner giving him a false sense of distance? or do you go and try to hit them so they can get a sense of how close you are and what happens?
Interesting question. Every time I think I’ve trained something fairly realistically, somebody pushes the envelope a little further. For instance, I thought we were pretty realistic in eskrima because we did a lot of freestyle training with sticks, knives, staffs, etc. (Often without the other guy even knowing what you were carrying.)
Then rogue comes along and relates that a friend of his pulled out a pellet gun in the middle of a sparring match and put two in the other guy’s chest.
So it’s a lot more complicated than pulling punches. How far do people feel they need to go in training this sort of thing? What do they address? Environment? Psychological reactions? Firearms? Bystanders?
interesting point.
Im jsut tlaking 2 partner drilling of techniques whether they be form a form or jsut free style.
yesterday i was doing some self defense. the first couple times i let the punch come maybe 6 inches from my partners face so we could get the tecnique down. after 2/3 times my sifu said “okay now throw the punch to hit him, you can still control the power if he misses, dont let him think someone will always come 6 inches away.” so then we started training like that and i was like wow, its nice.
Well, I definitely agree that’s an important part of the equation. Without that, you’re never going to get a very realistic sense. So that’s definitely a good starting point.
yeah I know. lets see how I improve in a couple months 
so you trian like that?
Wow, pulling a pellet gun. Those guys aren’t fooling around!
I definitely think that is interesting and wouldn’t mind someone pulling a paintball gun on me just to test my reaction, but I don’t want to invest my time in that direction.
Without a gun and adequate time to react safely and find cover, a gun beats me every time. I do want to ask my teacher to start training me in knives this summer, though. He teaches sword and pole and I want to learn them. But I’m getting confident in my hands and wouldn’t mind the added security of being able to wield my Spyderci with equal confidence. Now I just relate my empty hand principles of not fighting capital to capital to the blade.
Back the question: Put the gear on and beat each other. As you learn and are able to protect yourself (head), remove the gear little by little.
we start by doing the technique ‘classically’ ie. more like it is in the form and with the attacker being more co-operative.
then it gets quicker, more realistic and probably a bit messier looking as the attacker hits harder and faster or resists against the technique.
obviously I;m referring to applications.
Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
[B]yeah I know. lets see how I improve in a couple months
so you trian like that? [/B]
Not lately, if I’m going to be completely honest. But when I was first training eskrima, our training was pretty freestyle. I’m saying ‘freestyle’ vs. ‘realistic’ for a reason.
We didn’t do solely prearranged combinations. We didn’t even know going in what the other guy would be wielding. We’d do gauntlet drills where you’re surrounded by your classmates and they’d charge you at random with the weapon of their choice. That sort of thing.
But that’s still not ‘realistic.’ It doesn’t account for a whole lot of things. And I’m still not sure that my interests lay (as Efist said) in that direction.
At the risk of sounding overly philosophical, I’m interested in truth more than in this “mean streets” world view prevalent in certain martial arts circles. I want what I practice to be substantive rather than complete bollocks. But I don’t want the near-paranoid urban jungle mania of many modern self defense systems.
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
[B]Wow, pulling a pellet gun. Those guys aren’t fooling around!
I definitely think that is interesting and wouldn’t mind someone pulling a paintball gun on me just to test my reaction, but I don’t want to invest my time in that direction.
You might feel differently about that after you take two in the chest at close range.
But I sort of agree with you about the time investment. I think it’s an important thing to consider. But as I said in the previous post, the SD worldview just doesn’t do it for me.
Back the question: Put the gear on and beat each other. As you learn and are able to protect yourself (head), remove the gear little by little.
Personally, I’m more in favour of keeping the gear and increasing the variables. Obstacles. Weapons of opportunity. Etc.
I think its also important to highlight what Scotty said: It should begin with co-op drills. The other guy should “feed” it to you. Then the gear and beating the hell out of each other later.
Keep it simple. Here’s a good rule: if it looks like “Kung Fu” (big sweeping movements and high legs and various animal hand contortions waxing and waning) it probbaly doesn’t work. Find a basic shielding structure. Train a way to collapse your foe and a way to pick your foe up when being collasped, or how to roll over him while controlling.
Find a way to enter safely while covering and hitting. You can see these things while co-op training. As you grow in confidence pick up the power.
Too right. Sorry Scotty. Didn’t mean to gloss over that.
I think it depends what you mean by selfdefense, also what you mean by realisticaly.
My teacher has for years not claimed to teach self defense, as the term self defense has become a generic term meaning “street aware” and is a term which invokes pictures of unlikely older women using unlikely counters to unlkiely wrist grabs. Above all he does not wish to “sell” a false sense of security.
My teacher claims only to teach TCC that you may or may not be able to use for fighting depending on your personal preferance.
Now having said the above, I feel that we train in a fairly realistic way. Punches are aimed at the head and are ment to land unless you do somthing about it (the hardest part here is getting people to try to hit you properly).
Most of what we do is done against resisting partners and is done on a winner stays on system, with the first priority being on winning (bit contrvertial there) rather than using good form.
Freestyle grappling (standing) is brought in fairly early (first lesson if you like) as is sparring (again if you like first lesson, but if you choose to sparr on the first lesson we really dont expect to ever see you again LOL) and is all fairly rough, with (as I said before) the priority being given to winning over good form.
I trained very realistic with my Sifu and my students train the same way in my Kwoon…it is the only way to be effective on the street. But, rank beginners should not train this way as they do not have the art yet to do so and may become ‘gun shy’…just an expression.
GHD
Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon
[B]I trained very realistic with my Sifu and my students train the same way in my Kwoon…it is the only way to be effective on the street. But, rank beginners should not train this way as they do not have the art yet to do so and may become ‘gun shy’…just an expression.
GHD [/B]
Define realiatic! Im quite sure no one is going to post “well we train in a totaly realistic manner but…” even though most schools are indeed training in an unrealistic way.
GHD what makes your training realistic?
Why do you think your realistic training prepares you for the street?
The more realistically I train for the street the more I realize most people can’t train realistically for the street. I thought I had things down when we used a rubber gun but then we started using the airsoft more and I realized how intimadating going against a real gun is. And that’s even with me beating the airsoft most of the time. Also the reaction of the guy with the gun changes because of the risk of being shot himself.
do you guys consider everything attacks?
hard blocks can be htis too. hmm we dont train with any protective gear, maybe cause of our level, but for some beginer kids i had them start a little far away punch would come like 2 inches away instead of hitting them. makes them react.
But I sort of agree with you about the time investment. I think it’s an important thing to consider. But as I said in the previous post, the SD worldview just doesn’t do it for me.
This coming from a guy who plays with sticks and knives!
But you are right about the SD worldview, it’s a slippery slope. If you’re going to train self defense then you have to approach it seriously but also keep things in perspective. That IMO is where you get the most trouble. A ring fighter can realize the efforts of his training but what does a person only into self defense do to test themselves? And why would you want to test yourself that way?
The good news(?) is most people taking self defense are just in it to gain a false sense of security.
The more realistically I train for the street the more I realize most people can’t train realistically for the street.
For the record I meant to include myself in that group.
Originally posted by Liokault
[B]
Define realiatic! Im quite sure no one is going to post “well we train in a totaly realistic manner but…” even though most schools are indeed training in an unrealistic way.
GHD what makes your training realistic?
Why do you think your realistic training prepares you for the street? [/B]
Well I cannot define ‘realiatic!’ 
…but I can define realistic…training to defend against situations/attacks one would encounter on the street along with the emotional impact.
Having worked law enforcement as a PI for quite a few years, I encountered many individuals intent on doing you in (I had no, gun, no weapon…just cuffs and of course my art) and encountered all forms of situations…my art stood by me true and effective. My students when having to protect themselves were able to do so with the art I have taught them and it’s methods of application as to training in a realistic way. Anyway…this training is secret and if I tell you more, I’ll have to kill you
GHD
Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon
[B]
Well I cannot define ‘realiatic!’
Having worked law enforcement as a PI for quite a few years, I encountered many individuals intent on doing you in (I had no, gun, no weapon…just cuffs and of course my art) and encountered all forms of situations…my art stood by me true and effective. My students when having to protect themselves were able to do so with the art I have taught them and it’s methods of application as to training in a realistic way. Anyway…this training is secret and if I tell you more, I’ll have to kill you
GHD [/B]
ooh do tell more
Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon
[B]
Well I cannot define ‘realiatic!’
Having worked law enforcement as a PI for quite a few years, I encountered many individuals intent on doing you in (I had no, gun, no weapon…just cuffs and of course my art) and encountered all forms of situations…my art stood by me true and effective. My students when having to protect themselves were able to do so with the art I have taught them and it’s methods of application as to training in a realistic way. Anyway…this training is secret and if I tell you more, I’ll have to kill you
GHD [/B]
So you can’t tell us how you train realistically, only how great your art is, with some anecdotal evidence to back yourself up…give some examples please…even if you don’t give away deadly secrets.