off to detox!
original wing chun
I think there are some major things that one needs to consider when trying to find the ‘original’ wing chun:
Lineage
techniques
energy
character of leaders within the lineage
ability of leaders within the lineage
principles taught and followed
I don’t think any wing chun is wing chun. I don’t thing everyone has it.
Wing Chun is a deep pool so everyone’s techniques may look a little different, but they should still follow the same principles.
I believe Wing Chun was developed by a woman. So, I train so that a woman would be able to utilize the same energy to defeat opponents (male or female) who are larger and stronger.
Character is important. I don’t want too get into this too much, but I really believe it is.
The ability of the leaders within a lineage is greatly important. If there skill is not good, how will you become good? Why would you practice principles (that are simple but not easy) if your instructor does not discipline you in this? In theory it might work, but reality is that students follow their teachers.
The overall guiding principles should guide both the leaders and students to higher levels of skill. The principles help one reach to higher and higher levels making ones skill more exact and precise.
I do not believe Wing Chun (et. al other spellings) are equal.
Marty
Re: Wing Chun is Wing Chun and other Nonsense…
Originally posted by ijedi
I find this discussion interesting. It raises some important questions. I have studied MA for 22 years in 17 styles and I must say that while other systems do teach similar principles there is no other martial art that is as concise in its organization of the subject matter as wing chun. I have completely dedicated myself to learning wing chun and consider all my learning in the MA’s to have led me to study this incredible art.
There are many martial arts out there, yes. And there are many representatives of each art. You must have been studying from the wrong people.
[B]
The principles of wing chun are simply the principles of nature. By that I mean that when you look at mathematics, geometry, and physics; wing chun is simply the logic of human motion. IMHO wing chun is the greatest because of how it presents its subject matter. 3 hand forms (Lines, Circles, and Spheres). All motions are learned through the forms and then practical application (in its various stages) is gained through chi sau. [/B]
It’s NOT the only one. Out of the above, the only thing that makes Wing Chun different, is that it has fewer forms than most others.
[B]
Name another martial arts that has as sophisticated an implement as chi sau. In its simplicity lies is sophistication. In its construction lies its depth. [/B]
Tai Chi, Hung Gar, Okinawan Karate (certain branches).
Please re-read my post…
Whippinghand,
“It’s NOT the only one. Out of the above, the only thing that makes Wing Chun different, is that it has fewer forms than most others.”
I am sorry but I feel that you did not really read my post. For if you had you would understand that I never said that Wing Chun was the ONLY one. You may re-read my post and see that I stated that in my opinion it was the greatest.
I say this because as far as the organization and thematic relationships of the motions, forms, and drills I have not encountered another martial art as intelligently thought through. The fact that it has fewer forms is EXACTLY my point. Simplicity.
“There are many martial arts out there, yes. And there are many representatives of each art. You must have been studying from the wrong people.”
How good of you to make the assumption that my previous Sensei’s, Sifu’s, Guro’s, and Instructor’s were “the wrong people.” Not every martial art teaches the complete ranges of combat (striking/locking/throwing) and certain styles limit the motions. To think that all martial arts teach what Wing Chun teaches then perhaps you have met people who misrepresent what their art espouses.
For instance, in the curriculum of many Wing Chun practitioners you will not find stick-fighting. Further, if someone told me that they train in Kali or Escrima and I told them that Wing Chun had stick fighting too I would be doing a grave disservice to my Sifu and the art.
Now…that does NOT mean that I cannot fight with sticks. The Bat Jaam Do teaches one how to use any short weapon; whether it be a rattan stick, a dagger, or a club. Having studied Kali extensively both in the U.S. and in the Philippines, I can attest to the fact that all the motions in Kali have a Wing Chun counterpart. I feel that Wing Chun motions are more comprehensive and organized in a much more intelligent curriculum.
In my previous post I stated:
Name another martial arts that has as sophisticated an implement as chi sau.
You said, “Tai Chi, Hung Gar, Okinawan Karate (certain branches).”
Having lived in Okinawa for two years and studying martial arts there I can assure you that there is nothing indigenous to the arts of that island that come anywhere close to Chi Sau.
I am assuming that in Tai Chi you are speaking of what is commonly known as push hands. While this is sophisticated, it is not as usable in fighting applications as chi sau. If you know someone that can use their Tai Chi in fighting application after 18 months of study, then you are dealing with an extraordinary person. I have never encountered one. Even during my time studying Tai Chi and Pa Qua. I do however know of individuals who have studied Wing Chun for a short amount of time and through Chi Sau have become competent enough to apply their skills in a fighting situation.
To the subject of Hung Gar I cannot speak directly as I have never studied that art. With that however I feel that we are getting off the topic of this thread.
ijedi
Originally posted by ijedi
I am sorry but I feel that you did not really read my post.
I understood your post more than you think. You state that it is the “greatest”. You have said nothing that REALLY distinguishes it from other traditional arts. All that you’ve stated, as you have already confirmed, is that Wing Chun has fewer forms, and therefore is the best.
How good of you to make the assumption that my previous Sensei’s, Sifu’s, Guro’s, and Instructor’s were “the wrong people.”
I’ll state it again: There are many martial arts out there. And there are many representatives of each art. Are you trying to convince me that you were fortunate enough to have “hit the nail on the head” 17 times, in terms of an instructor who actually knew and understood his art, inside and out.
Having lived in Okinawa for two years and studying martial arts there I can assure you that there is nothing indigenous to the arts of that island that come anywhere close to Chi Sau.
Really…? Are you absolutely sure? Again, there are many branches of Okinawan Karate, as I’m sure you know. Do you think you hit the nail on the head again? ****! You’re a lucky man! Or maybe, just maybe they didn’t happen to advertise it on a billboard, that 2 years that you were there. Maybe you didn’t study it long enough to find out… Maybe the branch you studying (if Okinawan, at all) didn’t have their method of what we call “chi sau”… Maybe, they decided not to teach you, being a foreigner… Maybe, they only teach closed door students…
If you know someone that can use their Tai Chi in fighting application after 18 months of study, then you are dealing with an extraordinary person. I have never encountered one.
Well, now we’re talking about something else. I didn’t realize that you were talking about proficiency in an 18 month time span. However, considering the fact that you’ve covered 17 arts, in your lifetime so far, I can now understand your perspective. You’re the Mary Magdalene of Martial Arts!!! Back to the point… ask yourself this: Take a Tai Chi practitioner who’s trained for 20 years, and take a Wing Chun practitioner, who’s trained for 20 years. Who do you think would win?
I know your answer already… You’d love to think that the Wing Chun person would win. And it could happen, but with the Wing Chun that I’ve seen… I’d bet on the Tai Chi person.
Clarification…
“You have said nothing that REALLY distinguishes it from other traditional arts. All that you’ve stated, as you have already confirmed, is that Wing Chun has fewer forms, and therefore is the best.”
Not because it has fewer forms, rather because wing chun is able to consolidate and simplify its text for the purpose of study. If you can understand algebra by reading three books, rather than twenty, then I would say that the three book method is probably more efficient.
“Are you trying to convince me that you were fortunate enough to have “hit the nail on the head” 17 times, in terms of an instructor who actually knew and understood his art, inside and out.”
I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am merely clarifying my point. I will say this. If you have a system that requires eight forms to teach what wing chun has simplified to three, then I question the organization of that system. Further, I would argue that wing chun would be a more intelligent and thought through system for this very reason.
“Really…? Are you absolutely sure? Again, there are many branches of Okinawan Karate, as I’m sure you know. Do you think you hit the nail on the head again?..”
I assure you that no dojo I studied in was advertised. I was fortunate in that I made good friends with individuals who were native to the island and was trusted by my instructors. Not only that but the structure in Okinawa-te, Goju-ryu, and others do not allow for the seamless transitions of a chi sau session. Also, if I have to study an art more than 2 years to be introduced to their “version” of chi sau then I would say that has nothing to do with chi sau. Chi Sau is the laboratory of Wing Chun. Everything else is theory. So if Okinawan martial arts have such a wonderful tool then why would they seek to bury it in the art?
Perhaps we may disagree on the very aspect of what chi sau is in its totality. However, I feel that this subject would best be discussed on another thread.
“Well, now we’re talking about something else. I didn’t realize that you were talking about proficiency in an 18 month time span. However, considering the fact that you’ve covered 17 arts, in your lifetime so far, I can now understand your perspective. ask yourself this: Take a Tai Chi practitioner who’s trained for 20 years, and take a Wing Chun practitioner, who’s trained for 20 years. Who do you think would win?
I know your answer already… You’d love to think that the Wing Chun person would win. And it could happen, but with the Wing Chun that I’ve seen… I’d bet on the Tai Chi person.”
I am glad that you already know my answer. First off, I feel that anyone that has to use violence has already lost. There is no such thing as “winning” a fight. But that is another topic. Do you believe in the attributes of an individual?
Or are we talking about some Platonic idealistic “TAI CHI PERSON” and “WING CHUN PERSON”? This does not exist and is moot so please let’s not do the whole style vs. style argument. (If you fought Mike Tyson do you think you would be able to defend yourself?)
Bruce Lee had something when he spoke of the attributes of the individual. However, I will argue that training in the wing chun system releases the dormant attributes and abilities of the individual in a logical curriculum. And that curriculum is more intelligently organized than any other system I have seen.
The original question on this thread was “How do you know that you wing chun is the real deal?”
In addressing this I have stated that your understanding comes from experience and knowledge.
I do not deny my own search for the truth in martial arts. This is my very point. When I began studying wing chun I was already a very proficient fighter. However, I have undertaken a process of unlearning what I have learned because of what I have come to understand of the wing chun system.
As one of my great teachers once said, “You should know everything about something and something about everything.” I plan on continuing my study of wing chun for the rest of my life and have it be the something that I know everything about.
I just hope that I live to be 108 years old.
P.S. Take your personal jabs if you think it aids in your argument. I am just reminded of the classical musicians who used to scoff at Scott Joplin…until he got up and played Chopin. A true artist often walks many paths before they find their calling.
18 months of tai chi against wing chun?
I would DEFNIATELY bet against the tai chi,
Tai chi used in fighting is a VERY advanced art.
If you just learn tai chi within 18 months, I am pretty sure the sifu will not have you spar or train your reflexes since the movements aren’t too fast.
Without sparing,
You won’t have any timing or reflexes
and since tai chi is a TIMING art, not a “speed” art, you will not win any fights at all.
What you need to do is, base your art on something like northen shaolin, and spar everyday
once you finish northen shaolin, your reflexes and fighting technqiues are already very good
You take TAI chi, and put the chi into your punches and kicks. then you will kick SERIOUS ass.
timing + chi strikes = your ass is owned.
Whipping hand…
“but with the Wing Chun that I’ve seen… I’d bet on the Tai Chi person.”
I have to imagine you say this b/c of the lack of proficiency shown by such a wide range of WC practitioners, not b/c you think that WC is inferior.
If this is this case, statistically, I think it’s more likely to find a good WC guy than a good TC guy. There’s so much Tai Chi out there that can’t possibly be considered martial…
Now, when you talk of experts, I can’t answer b/c I’ve never seen even a good TC guy.
Re: Clarification…
Originally posted by ijedi
Not because it has fewer forms, rather because wing chun is able to consolidate and simplify its text for the purpose of study. If you can understand algebra by reading three books, rather than twenty, then I would say that the three book method is probably more efficient.
How much algebra do you think you would understand? Are you talking about surface level understanding? or a thorough understanding? You don’t have to answer…
If you have a system that requires eight forms to teach what wing chun has simplified to three, then I question the organization of that system.
If all of the traditional martial arts have 10 forms, and Wing Chun is the only one that doesn’t, don’t you think you should question the organization of the Wing Chun, not the others?
Further, I would argue that wing chun would be a more intelligent and thought through system for this very reason.
I think you need a better argument to substantiate your point. Again, all that you are stating is that Wing Chun is better because it has fewer forms.
So if Okinawan martial arts have such a wonderful tool then why would they seek to bury it in the art?
To ensure that 18 month students, like yourself, who just want to learn how to fight in six months, don’t go on to teach & represent the art. So that the true art won’t disintegrate, like Wing Chun has.
Good luck in finding your truth.
sanchezero,
You’re right, I don’t believe that Wing Chun is inferior.
I think you’re more likely to find a good Tai Chi guy than a good Wing Chun guy.
wtf?!?!
Like Spectre, I think I’ve taken bad drugs or something…or maybe it’s the lack of sleep three nights in a row…
but I actually think whipping hand made a few excellent points on this page here…
…or maybe it’s the alcohol still in my system :eek:
EmptyCup
So, you’ve been training…
whippinghand
you seem to assume that you’re always right :o and that when people agree with you, they are knowledgeable or have somehow become better. That is very arrogant.
i have actually been TRAINING LESS haha! 
so if I agree with you now, it might be because I’m worse off in my technique…and according to you, my knowledge was bad before so what does that say for you now??? 
Seriously though, you made valid points in your discussion with ijedi and others WITHOUT resorting to your usual close-mouthedness and cryptic answers. You made good points without starting an argument…I guess you’ve changed too…
You see, we can all get along! Maybe cuz it’s Christmas? 
P.S.
(whippy, I expect my cheque is in the mail…)
Yikes. how did this become ta CHi vs. Wing chun? On that topic, you will find more wc guys who spar than tc guys. That gives it the edge.
As for how do I know the wing chun I do is real? Simple…i looked around before I started. I decided I wanted to learn this funky ‘wing chun stuff’ that I saw my JKD friends doing, but they weren’t good at it really, so I looked for a good place. Read books, looked around & I was disappointed. Most wc i came across, simply…sucked. That is, they NEVER guided you towards using wc for COMBAT. Then i walked in on the WT wing tsun system and saw that they did, so i tried it out, liked it and stuck with it.
? arghhhhhhhh!!!
Dave, it’s CHRISTMAS!!! why do you have to go on a censorship spree again!!! you should have been a dictator…instead of pretending to be a democrat…
what whippy and i said to each other was “discussion furthering understanding of wing chun” it was not insulting nor confrontational…i am insulted that you constantly jump in and madly delete anything and everything YOU deem to be slightly offensive. Since neither me nor whippy nor any other members would find it in bad taste, why would you just go and delete something like that!!! you keep on saying how “the forum belongs to us” you gotta take moderating a tad less seriously sometimes…and do it more, uh, moderately
this is getting very annoying again…it 's almost as if you abuse your powers…and everytiome somebody brings this up you DON’T LISTEN to them!!!
Merry Christmas
Hello Empty Cup,
I am not nor do I pretend to be a Democrat, afraid I am a Republican
As to your feelings regarding censorship that is fine and you are welcome to them. I suppose the idea of trading blows via e-mail or even with the “Buddy” or “instant messageing” features of this forum are less edifying then airing things in public.
I am glad to see that you now speak for everyone on the forum as I am sure everyone else shares your views. I have actually been moderating less and less and letting quite a few things slide. However, if this has insulted you then please accept my apology.
I am constently amazed at how some people would rather trade slights and insults then to discuss the art of Wing Chun. Who knows, maybe if one took the time to discuss the art something might be learned. Hmm, on second thought forget that is too novel an idea. 
I do try to listen to what people say and try to be fair. If I am not then I again will offer an apology. However, as you point out this is not your forum any more than it is mine. If the majority of members felt the same way as you then that would dictate the atmosphere.
I don’t wish to get into a ****ing match, that serves neither of us. I only ask that you discuss the art and keep personal differences, within reason, some personal comments are quite amusing, seperate.
As always anyone is free to contact me via e-mail to discuss this matter or any other further my contact information is contained within my profile however my e-mail addresses are listed here as well.
sihing73@juno.com
dmcknight@rcn.com
Merry Christmas; I look forward to a edifying future for all of us.
Peace,
Dave
i give up
Dave, if you had actually read my post before deleting it, you would have found that it did indeed have to do with wing chun. Whipping Hand’s comment might have been meant to mock but I did not take offense. Instead, I replied with an answer that dealt with wing chun.
In a nutshell, what I answered was that chi sau skill, or any other martial skill for that matter, cannot be determined by reading words from a computer screen. Some people sound very skillful but are not and some sound horrible but are skilled. I was stating my belief that you cannnot always judge a book by its cover without experiencing it firsthand. Does that have nothing to do with wing chun???
regardless, I give up because everytime a member challenges your use of your moderating authority, you give the same robotic mechanical answer that consists of:
- it is not my forum but your forum
- i am a fair guy
- contact me via email to discuss things that i refuse to listen to in the main forum
Don’t give up
Empty Cup,
Don’t give up. Believe it or not, I, and I am sure many others, value many of your posts. You do make some very valid points. You are quite correct that ones skill, regardless of the arena, can not be accurately judged via this medium. I could be a fat lazy pathetic loser, oh wait a minute that is me , or I could be the best Wing Chun guy on earth, though not very likely in this medium it is impossible to tell for sure.
I only ask that the personal slights be kept to a minimum in order to keep this forum from degenerating into something else. I would rather err on the side of caution and in some cases this may offend someone. When that happens I am always willing to discuss it. I prefer e-mail as it keeps things from cluttering up the board, which I am doing right now. However, I can assure you that I have nothing personal against you, Whipping Hand or anyone else on this board. If I seem to be treading a little heavy at times then realize we are all human, none of us is perfect. Also keep in mind my tendency and predisposition to err on the side of caution.
I hope to continue to read more from you and even from Whipping Hand. However, I ask that you keep the personal comments to a minimum. Although I did like one by VTS about fighting a deaf and blind person . Just keep in mind that there are a variety of people on this board some who appreciate humor and some who do not. I would again rather err on the side of caution. Hopefully you can understand this.
Peace,
Dave
Systems and learning…
>How much algebra do you think you would understand? Are you talking about surface level understanding? or a thorough understanding?
One need not reach a thorough understanding of a system in order to grasp the primary principles or theses of that system. What one does learn is that the system studied provides information for one’s journey. In other words, this will allow you to know if you want to study that system any further.
In the case of algebra…reading more does not constitute understanding more.
If a musician wants to play classical music then it would not make sense to study jazz music for 10 years. Further, just as someone may not become a very competent jazz musician in 2 years does not preclude them from understanding what jazz is (in theory).
>If all of the traditional martial arts have 10 forms, and Wing Chun is the only one that doesn’t, don’t you think you should question the organization of the Wing Chun, not the others?
What makes you assume that I haven’t questioned this? You would have people believe that all arts have the same ends and teach the same things. This just is not true. It truly depends on ones goals and aims in studying the respective art. Also, questioning is a primary tool for learning. If one does not question, one does not really understand.
>I think you need a better argument to substantiate your point. Again, all that you are stating is that Wing Chun is better because it has fewer forms.
Point well taken. I did not elaborate further because I did not feel it was pertinent to the question raised by this thread. There are other martial arts that have three forms which deal with the basic movement of the spine in lines, circles, and spheres. These martial arts are indigenous to Vietnam, Indonesia, and India. However, I have not seen a Chi Sau component to these systems.
I originally posted:
So if Okinawan martial arts have such a wonderful tool then why would they seek to bury it in the art?
whippinghand’s response>To ensure that 18 month students, like yourself, who just want to learn how to fight in six months, don’t go on to teach & represent the art. So that the true art won’t disintegrate, like Wing Chun has.
The disintegration of Wing Chun is not due to the teaching of Chi Sau or any other aspect of the art. This has happened for a myriad of reasons and would be better addressed in another thread.
In all my years of study I have never taught of my own accord. My instructors would have me assist them and I always taught only that which I understood. I have shared information among the hundreds of people throughout the world that I have encountered. I whole heartedly endorse people to learn about other styles. Engage in discussion and debate with individuals of differing opinions. After all, this is some of the best fertilizer for the growth of the individual.
You assume that I just wanted to learn to fight “in six months.” If that’s all this was about I would have quit a long time ago with a art I like to call:
Gun-Fu (the style of the SIG-Sauer)
Fighting and self-defense are not all the martial arts are about. To find a metaphorical representation of what jazz music was to me was my journey in the martial arts. One should not assume where one comes from.
The guarding of information has not stopped people from misrepresenting the arts they are exposed to. How many times have we heard of an individual going to a clinic of a renowned master only to have their picture taken with them. Then armed with that picture spread the misinformation that they are a disciple of the master.
Also, this hiding of knowledge that abounds in the Cultures and information systems of the world is a mockery of art. Do not misunderstand that I endorse commercialization. That is clearly not the case. I merely submit that many individuals are too guarded with the knowledge that they have gained. This is not just an Eastern tradition as many think. It goes on in every culture.
Back to the question at hand…
But to address the pertinent question…
>How do you know that you wing chun is the real deal?
The impetus for learning must take place from a teacher who has a mastery of the art in question. If you feel that your Sifu has something of value to teach and has earned your trust and respect, then your learning is the “real deal.”
One needs to address the goals, reason, research and methods of study. Then and only then can you begin to understand a system.
As Whippinghand stated in another post:
“Not every student in an Economics class will have the same profession”
and Yuanfen further illuminated:
“Who is teaching, which curriculum they are following, the nature of the student and other things can make a big difference.”
Well said. And thank you for your time.