hit in the ribs

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

hello everyone.

on saturday sifu hit me quite hard in the ribs. at the time i cried out loudly, flew back a ways and then down on the floor, i was laughing though. damm it was a sweet hit and i congratulated sifu for it. Then the lesson ended - i could nto have continued if it had gone on longer!! this hit was the last in a series of 8 or so, i blocked the others but sifu always gets me in the end.

the hit felt like it was just at the bottom of the latimus dorsi on my right side, i cant recall if sifu hit me with fist or palm. today, sunday, it still hurts like hell, but its getting better slowly. i have pain all around my bottom lowest rib from the front to the back, its not too sore to the touch but hurts alot if i move.

now, some questions:

  1. i never seem to bruise, there is no discoloration at all of my skin. this is also the case with many hits to face and arms and chest, i just dont bruise - which doesnt help if i have to tell people how much pain i’m in… but is the not bruising a sign of: strength? weakness? nothing?

  2. how much does it have to hurst do you know you damaged a rib? i dont want to know, but as my ribs feel better already i guess its not damaged.

  3. whats the best way to improve? obviously its dont get hit but what else? more situps / lower abdominal muscle conditioning? iron shirt training? repeatedly hitting myself with a stick? dit da jow herbs to improve recovery? (as it is i used radon spray and arnica ointment..)

  4. any other comments from anyone on getting hit in the ribs (are my kidneys down there too?)

2

“1. i never seem to bruise, there is no discoloration at all of my skin. this is also the case with many hits to face and arms and chest, i just dont bruise - which doesnt help if i have to tell people how much pain i’m in… but is the not bruising a sign of: strength? weakness? nothing?”

Probably nothing specific. You’re still getting pain, so you’re still incurring damage. Never had a black eye? You’re either very lucky, very good, or don’t do much hard sparring.

“2. how much does it have to hurst do you know you damaged a rib? i dont want to know, but as my ribs feel better already i guess its not damaged.”

Last time I cracked a rib, the pain was only severe (like throbbing and unignorable) for a day or so. But it was sensitive to touch for a week or two after that, and I certainly didn’t feel like wrestling or getting hit there for a couple of weeks after.

“3. whats the best way to improve? obviously its dont get hit but what else? more situps / lower abdominal muscle conditioning? iron shirt training? repeatedly hitting myself with a stick? dit da jow herbs to improve recovery? (as it is i used radon spray and arnica ointment..)”

I’d suggest learning some RMA-style shock absorption. You can’t trun yourself into a man of steel, so learn to deal with impact better. Good (not extreme) conditioning will both reduce damage and promote healing. Pushing conditioning too hard may make you more susceptible to injury.

“4. any other comments from anyone on getting hit in the ribs (are my kidneys down there too?)”

Make sure you rest and heal adequately before resuming hard training. There isn’t really much you can do for a cracked rib other than ice, rest and wait for it to heal. Get a decent anatomy book for location of organs - good knowledge to have anyway.

Oh, yah, one of one of my teacher’s maxims, “a good boxer is stung frequently and hurt occasionally.”

3
  1. i never seem to bruise, there is no discoloration at all of my skin. this is also the case with many hits to face and arms and chest, i just dont bruise - which doesnt help if i have to tell people how much pain i’m in… but is the not bruising a sign of: strength? weakness? nothing?

No that’s just you my friend :wink:

My wife doesn’t bruise, even after a nice fall from the back of a motorbike. Her best friend bruises if you touch her hard.

We’re all different

(Chorus: “Yes, we’re all different”) a’la Life of Brian :smiley:

4

internal

I would be concerned about internal bruising. Perhaps you should treat the area as if it were bruised - just in case. You still got to get rid of the bad chi.

5

regards.
anerlich what does the acronym RMA stand for? i dont do any conditioning for my ribcage or abs at the moment, so even doing some pilates and core conditioning would be a step up. would you recommend that i condition the inside or the outside?

ok, straight blast, we’re all different, but what do our differences mean for us? being kenyan may make us better able to run long distances for example. so can i assume that not bruising so easily means that i dont get damaged as easily? dont want to sound arrogant, just feel that physiologically bruising is indicative of a certain thing, if there is no smoke then perhaps no fire?? anyway, anyone with some medical knowledge care to share on the subject of bruising?

keng geng - how would i treat the area as if it were bruised even though its not? like i said arnica and radon spray, but waht do you suggest for the bad chi?

thanks for the posts.

6

You can try rubbing some jow into the injured area. Massaging it into the injured area can help it heal.

Here is a link to the current jow I am trying out. So far it has helped me out pretty good. The key is how you massage it into your body as well. So having your wife (or whoever) rub it in might be a good idea if its hard to reach.

http://www.orientalherb.com/herbal_products_liniments.html

There are tons of recipies for jow, and you could even use tiger balm to help it.

Also, I don’t bruise that easy either. A few weeks ago when sparring I got bare knuckle punched in the eye pretty hard by accident, and had no bruise from it. So thats just your body.

7

foolindeck - rub it

Like Gangsta wrote… rub it with jow, arnica, whatever. Even nothing, as long as you rub it.

8

Re: foolindeck - rub it

RMA - Russian Martial Arts.

You can do a certain amount of conditioning of the musculature - for example, Australian boxing world champ Kostya Tszyu has increduibly well developed abs which actually seem to come up and over his lower ribs and solar plexus. He also has supernaturallt well developed forearms. The guy trains like a cross between a machine and demon, though.

You may be able to “harden” the bones with iron shirt, iron palm medicines, etc. Whether this is really healthy on a long term basis is rather doubtful. Besides, the ribs are designed to move and flex, with plenty of cartilage around them - maybe better take plenty of glucosamine and chondiotrin to keep them elastic rather than try to turn them into stone (which cracks).

Another option is to train your nervous system and physiology to better absorb blows. We DO all get hit occasionally if we train seriously and close to our limits, so it is something you need to come to terms with. Some smart people say it’s better to relax and move with the impact, and allow the body and its organs to move around the blow, rather than to tense up and try to turn yourself into a lump of granite, where your organsd are held tight like sitting ducks and have no opportunity to move with it thus absorbing the full impact. Like the old story of the oak that snaps vs the willow that bends, or the drunk that survives the car accident unhurt while all the sober people end up in hospital. just another version of “receive what comes”.

Massage and rubbing are good, but NOT on a freshly cracked rib (unless you really really enjoy pain). leave it at least a day or so.

9

Anerlich is right. If it hurts to lightly massage it then don’t do it. After a few days it will help heal it. Sorry if there was any confusion earlier, if it really hurts bad let it rest for a few days then start rubbing it.

10

thanks anerlich.
that was a great reply.
and i agree with you… i’m just wondering though, if i rely on relaxation - which i normally do, then would it pay to have a bit of light conditioning too? what i mean is, all i do to train my abs and ribs is err… siu lim tao - so some would say i do nothing. would you recommend that just a light amount of pilates or crunchs would be a good idea? nothing insane, just what the average martial artist does? likewise with the iron shirt - i dont have the time for full on iron shirt, but would a little bit of light flailing of my ribs with an empty coke bottle be useful now and again? i certainly wouldnt want to become hard as rock, but becoming more like a flexible but solid tree would be good..

i guess that my rib isnt cracked or broken because i can massage it without too much pain. but still no bruising and the pain is actually getting worse at times - maybe its just the evolution of the tension into other muscles etc.

if my rib had been cracked or broken, and i had gone to accident and emergency, what would they have done = just told me to rest it? or anything useful?

on the subject of dit da jow, can any basic chinese herbalist make it? the ones round here seem a bit dull so whats english for dit da jow?

11

You may want to see a doctor just because it may not be your rib. It could be internal damage to tissue and internal brusing. If it gest worse see a doctor. If its an internal bruise there is not much you can do besides let it heal and rest it. You may want to take an anti-inflamitory to keep the swelling down.

If it is just a cracked rib, then the hospital won’t do anything but tell you to increase your calcium intake, rest it, and perhaps prescribe some pain killers. You will be charge diagnostics and xrays of course.

As for the jow, there are probably 1000s of recipies. The link that I posted earlier is kind of expensive jow ( you can usually get a bottle at any asian market for under 10 dollars) but it was recomended by someone and I tried it anyways. So far I can’t really complain, I got a bruise on my inner bicept from sparring. I got hit pretty hard and it left a nice thumb sized bruise. It was gone in about 1 1/2 day with using that jow. There is technique to how you rub it in your body though. You have to rub it either towards your heart or away from your heat depending on the injury. At least thats how I have been taught.

To translate what dit ja jow means in english its

Dit: to fall, bump, or bruise
Da: to hit
Jow: liniment

So, it can be seen as liniment for bumping and bruising caused from hits. Icy hot could be considered a jow. The thing I like about jow is its all natural materials and no chemically designed ones. Also never put jow on an open wound, you do not want it in your blood system. This is because jow is pretty hard to make sterile and it can contain things that are not good in the blood stream, but used externally on the skin its great.

Its also used in iron palm training to help heal up minor bruising you get from iron palm conditioning. It won’t cure you, but it will help you body naturally heal itself. I will tell you right now its not a wonder cure, but from my experience it does help aid in healing.

12

fool,

Gangster gave you good advice above. I spoke to several health professionals and they all told me that all you can do is rest and ice it.

As for the conditioning and flailing, being in condition is always a plus. Rugby players and the like who deal with contact all the time weight train, not just for strength but also because it does reduce injury. In my experience, though, it’s very easy to overtrain, which leaves you MORE, not LESS, susceptible to injury.

“Tempering” occurs naturally if you are working out with contact. The idea is to proceed incrementally, and within your limits, and occasionally step back a few notches so that you proceed in a “ramp” type of approach. My most recent experience with this is in BJJ … the first couple of months I was getting bruises, injuries, had a crick in my neck after EVERY session … but after that it happened very rarely. Your body adapts. And too often I find myself hurting people (not newbies, just fellow studentswith a few years experience who don’t grapple regularly enough and thus are fair game) unintentionally with a move that my regular training partners wouldn’t even blink at, because their bodies are used to it.

All of this has limits - there’s nothing you can do that’s going to stop bullets, for example.

13

Re: internal

Originally posted by Keng Geng
I would be concerned about internal bruising. Perhaps you should treat the area as if it were bruised - just in case. You still got to get rid of the bad chi.

sounds like good avice..I don’t really bruise so easily myself, but if I notice an area that feels as though it is, like after a crazy workout or something, I’ll generally draw in the area and do some internal healing qigong, pushing or directing any bad qi from the area..1 day is normally ample recovery…

Lower lats, right side???..you’re a wing chun dude right?how’s your dimmak?..I’m pretty sure yur shifu wouldn’t go crazy on you here in that respect but I find by getting familiar with my points in that region, it allows you to defend on on a smaller scale…there is a sh*t load of points from your shoulders chest through ribs and abdo…what may seem like an “impact only” hit, could leave you peeing blood or having crazy internal jazz happening that you just can’t quite peg…but I’m sure you knew that already :stuck_out_tongue:

14

I was very fortunate to recently attend a Qigong seminar put on by my sigong. He was explaining the health benefits of qigong to us. When doing standing meditation (you are suppose to do it for at least 15 min, but ideally 30min) your body will tense up in certain areas. You then are suppose to stretch out that area of your body. Stretch it out as you go. When it tenses up, your body is telling you that the circulation in that area of your body needs work. So at first you will feel tension all over the place (especially if you stand and meditate for 30 min). That is normal. Stretch it out and increase circulation so chi has better flow through the body. Eventually, if you practice this enough you will not need to stretch during standing meditation and you can see the benefits even more.

For instance, if you have lots of neck and shoulder tension it cuts down on blood flow and circulation to the head. Which in return makes it harder for your body to communicate with your brain. So, if you got a rib injury and have tension in your neck and shoulders then your body cannot communicate as well as it could with your brain. Your brain then tells your bodies natural defenses and healing agents to work faster and harder on the part that is injured. This is because the injured part of the body can better communicate with the brain. That is why rubbing it also helps, it increases circulation (or chi flow) of that area.

So even if you don’t like qigong and don’t believe in the whole chi thing. Then look at it as stretching out the body and increasing circulation, thus making your bodies natural abilities to better work with your brain.

I hope that makes sense, I tried to be as straight forward as possible with out throwing a lot of qigong jargin in there.

Now there are also several types of qigong: health, medical, martial, and perhaps a few others I am not familiar with.

15

hey thanks for the replies!

i went today and bought some jow from my local chinese herbalist. she didnt speak good english and i had to write dit da jow down for her. then she suggest a 20ml bottle of “huoluo you” for £8. maybe its overpriced? but it is a really amzingly cool bottle with chinese characters built into the bottle etc. so i bought it and used some, within 5 mins i could rub the area hard with little pain and move around easily. it needs more applications i think but i’m bloody impressed!! so i figure that i will be better in 2 weeks max and that it cant be broken or cracked at all.

so result there, and i’d recommend to other wing chun people too - just dont breathe the stuff, unless you have a serious cold, its so so so well, its like menthol or camphor or something, its a killer.

when i’m better, i’ll probably just do a few sets of situps or crunches daily, try and do some pilates for core strength, and just protect that area way more in chi sau!!!

dont know about the dim mak points, i have enough to worry about..

standing meditation = definite good idea, i’m just doing zazen at the moment, too sore for tai qi or siu lim tao, but i will maybe start doing the xing yi nei gong exercises tomorrow morning for rehab..

RMA = systema only or other arts too?

16

RMA

The more publicised disciplines in the west are Systema and ROSS. Both of them incorporate the “Shock Absorption” drills and principles to absorb incoming force.

I found Scott Sonnon’s tape series “Shockability” deals with some of the issues discussed above very well. Scott is the head ROSS guy in the US.

17

There are litterally 1000s of recipies for jow. So you may check them out, some are warm and some are cold. Most of them use some type of alchohal like gin or vodka or rice wine.

I will apply jow to my hands, knuckles, fingers, wrist and forearm after doing bag work or working out. A few months back sifu almost broke my wrist teaching us some chin na. He applied jow to it and massaged it, and my wrist felt like normal the next day. So I have been using it since. I always try different types of jow. The menthol one you are talking about I know what it is, but cannot remember right now. My sifu has showed me that before, and he says he likes it as well.

Just be careful because some jow I have found to be worthless, and others to work well. If you get into iron palm training email or PM me first and don’t go off and buy those iron palm kits or liniments that say it will make your fists like iron.

That is actually a common misconception about iron plam. It became known as iron palm because of how the training tools made your hands look. Not that it turns your palms into iron. You first start off hitting sand, then gravel, then steel pellets. At the last stage of iron palm training the steel pellets would eventually rust and the rust would flake off and seep through the bag and get on your hands. This would make your hands “look” like iron. That is where the name came from, not because it makes them as hard as iron. That is a huge western misconception. There are a lot of marketing ploys done in the martial arts world just to sell products. Remember we are all consumers now. So don’t believe all the hype of a product until you test it yourself. Ask your sifu or fellow class mates, or talk to a traditional chinese herbalist (if there is no communication barrier) about products first. A lot of them out there are just marketing ploys to make a buck off of you.

However, I am glad to hear you are feeling better. Keep that rib safe for a while and let it heal, and go easy on yourself.

18

thanks again,
G especially, that sounds like good advice for everyone. further more gangsterfist: would u agree that any jow that comes in a plastic bottle or that costs too little is worthless? i am impressed by the design of the bottle i have, it implies quality - if its a rip off then they have expended alot of effort into making that bottle for nothing!!!

sounds true what u say about ‘iron’ too…

19

foolingthe deck- and gangsterfist—

the fact that it is delivered in a plastic bottle is no indicator of the quality of the jow.

Real issue is 3 fold-- who makes it ,(do they know what they are
doing), is it the right jow for the right problem and hopefully no mercury or other bad stuff in it.

NTC started a nice thread on jows- you might want to track back-and find that thread-there was some discussion on ingredients.

My last batch of jow was made by a LA Chinese herbalist who knows what he is doing- but it was shipped to me by a senior CMA person (non wing chun) in plastic bottles-less likely to break enroute. Then I transferred the two quite different jows into glass jars. I also took a different internal jow…in order to work on an injury from the outside and inside.

I do NOT sell jows. Best to find a good TCM practitioner.

BTW- an unsolicited opinion- accidents can happen but IMO a sifu should have enough control of his/her motion and power to not really injure a student.

joy chaudhuri

20

Joy makes a good point. The jow I am currently using comes in a plastic bottle and it works pretty well. The one I buy at the asian market comes in a glass bottle and is cheaper but does “look” cooler because its from asia I guess. They both work.

There are a lot of jows out there that work well. However, I would say for every type of good jow, there are at least 3 to 4 of the same type that do not work as well. I went to a chinese herbalist/doctor who actually spent 20yrs in china learning this stuff. He also does acupuncture and teaches a few internal chinese martial arts. I have used internal jow as well for internal healing. Some internal jow is also used in iron shirt training. I, myself am new to this stuff, but luckily I know a bunch of martial artists I can trust and they pointed me to the this doctor guy.

I have not seen many scientific documents on how jow works, I only know from experience. The internal jow I was taking came in a pill form, and you are suppose to take 2 with every meal. The doctor told me to take them because I was eating too much black pepper, garlic, and jalepenos. Which was actually true, and he could tell that by monitoring my bodies circulation. I was complaining about tension in my back and it looks like my diet was definately aiding the tension.

Oh and that wrist breaking sifu comment, I was not kidding about that or overexaggerating. He had me in a wrist lock and clenched it too hard by accident, it flipped me over and I saw a white flash and then a really sharp pain and some swelling in my wrist immediately afterward. Luckily enough he realize what he had done and controlled it so my wirst just slightly popped out of socket instead of breaking. It hurt pretty bad, and I was amazed how well the massage w/ the jow healed up my wrist. Next morning no swelling, no pain, just slightly stiff, pretty much normal.