[QUOTE=k gledhill;1211400]Ving Tsun is a definable skill. Making it into a subjective buffet/smorgasborg approach leaves the uninformed with a mix and match approach. Turning abstract concepts into confused applications. Perpetuating this idea simply allows any guy to pick up a book or video and assume he can make his vt what he wants, as long as he has abstract shapes in pictures to define him or he can con his students.[/QUOTE]
K, at the end of the day, arguing means nothing. Like everything else in life, it’s the guy who remains standing that counts.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1211401]K, at the end of the day, arguing means nothing. Like everything else in life, it’s the guy who remains standing that counts.[/QUOTE]
Yes, exactly, vt can be tested for this to check for arm chasing , off balanced execution in motion, etc…not rocket science we are talking about, slide rules at dawn.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1211076]Okaaaay lets move on, Ving tsun is dependent on angling and movement to work. Like the weapons we use, we too need to change positions and counter attack, etc… a basic pole set is static to learn the alignment of the pole before we start to move and angle to attacks and counter, etc…you cant stand still in a basic stance and expect to create dynamic force using momentum of the body in motion.Or learn to recover errors of the same or take advantage of others errors unless…you move around, like fighters do outside their living rooms.[/QUOTE]
Actually, you couldn’t be more wrong. If one understands the core principles of centerline and veiws of maximum efficiency, then the main goal for SNT level thinking would be to stand your ground and deal with the attack as it comes (loi lau) without having to step. If you can do this and dont need to use footwork, you dont - ie you only move when you HAVE to. Example, if someone throws a punch but I can redirect it without footowork thru proper understanding of timing, structure, positional advantage and leverage, we only needed to change our OPPONENT’s position. This is WC at it’s most efficient and this is what SNT teaches us. Of course, not everything works like this in a perfect world, which is why we have CK
Because, if on a bridge has been made, you cannot deal with the energy on the bridge, that is when Chum Kiu gets involved and footwork is necessary.
Of course there are facing and matchig strategies that come into play at CK stage during Bai Jong, and this is where footwork will also come into play during pre-engagement, but in order for me to have any real sense of WC centerline, we must have a point of reference. This is our own position in space, and we can’t have that if the first thing we do is start using footwork to engage.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1211465]Actually, you couldn’t be more wrong. If one understands the core principles of centerline and veiws of maximum efficiency, then the main goal for SNT level thinking would be to stand your ground and deal with the attack as it comes (loi lau) without having to step. If you can do this and dont need to use footwork, you dont - ie you only move when you HAVE to. Example, if someone throws a punch but I can redirect it without footowork thru proper understanding of timing, structure, positional advantage and leverage, we only needed to change our OPPONENT’s position. This is WC at it’s most efficient and this is what SNT teaches us. Of course, not everything works like this in a perfect world, which is why we have CK
Because, if on a bridge has been made, you cannot deal with the energy on the bridge, that is when Chum Kiu gets involved and footwork is necessary.
Of course there are facing and matchig strategies that come into play at CK stage during Bai Jong, and this is where footwork will also come into play during pre-engagement, but in order for me to have any real sense of WC centerline, we must have a point of reference. This is our own position in space, and we can’t have that if the first thing we do is start using footwork to engage.[/QUOTE]
What a moronic comment. Obviously he’s not confused, he is expressing how a family’s lineage understands these concepts. The ideas are presented clearly and completely in what was stated.
If you have a different understanding then give everyone on the forum the respect to do likewise and explain it clearly and completely.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1211497]What a moronic comment. Obviously he’s not confused, he is expressing how a family’s lineage understands these concepts. The ideas are presented clearly and completely in what was stated.
If you have a different understanding then give everyone on the forum the respect to do likewise and explain it clearly and completely.
His description was pretty good, the only reason you should step is because you have not controlled your center by losing it, or you don’t have a structure supported by the ground to be able be the main center both people rotate around.
If you are moving or stepping you are going around the other guys center line, which could work if he does not make the small rotation to follow you, which just means he is no good, otherwise you will be the guy at the disadvantage .
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1211497]What a moronic comment. Obviously he’s not confused, he is expressing how a family’s lineage understands these concepts. The ideas are presented clearly and completely in what was stated.
If you have a different understanding then give everyone on the forum the respect to do likewise and explain it clearly and completely.
Otherwise STFU.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for that
Careful though, or he may get his fragile ego hurt, take his toys and go home by deleting this thread too :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1211504]His description was pretty good, the only reason you should step is because you have not controlled your center by losing it, or you don’t have a structure supported by the ground to be able be the main center both people rotate around.
If you are moving or stepping you are going around the other guys center line, which could work if he does not make the small rotation to follow you, which just means he is no good, otherwise you will be the guy at the disadvantage .[/QUOTE]
There are three WCK major cores. direct, roundabout , and recovery of capture the center
All based on direct platform which is the development of siu nim tau.
As for roundabout, well, others an response it with direc or recovery . Who fast? The direct is fastest.
In the reality One cannot play in nba basket ball demanding no direct play but limit to roundabout or recovery.
And how to handle the direct center capturing where every inch and split of second counts? There is what siu nim tau is address.
Yik Kam, an unknown junior actor went to study Omei 12 palms exercises and Fukien white crane boxing. Later he mixed them up and called his art Yik Kam SLT (One long form). Here are the questions for Hendrik below.
Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai were the most senior wing chun practitioners of the Red Boat Opera at that time. Evidently they came before Yik Kam’s time. That presents a very important question, who was really practicing genuine wck at that time? Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai were very well known for their wck in public. Where was the junior Yik Kam and what was he doing at that time? Was he still a student of some unknown Omei teacher? What’s the name of the Omei teacher? So far, what people see of Yik Kam’s SLT, is not impressive. There is not enough data or information to support your claim that Yik Kam’s art is the original wck? If you truly want to promote and preserve Yik Kam’s art, then you should make it clear to the public that the Yik Kam SLT was from Omie, therefore, it should be called Omie SLT (one long Omie exercise form) different than the SLT/CK/BJ from all other wing chun lineages. Once that’s clear to the public,that will help you to find some peace within yourself. Now, you don’t have to repeat your endless "1850, Omie, White Crane and SLT (one long little exercise form originally from Omie 12 palms) "
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1211497]What a moronic comment. Obviously he’s not confused, he is expressing how a family’s lineage understands these concepts. The ideas are presented clearly and completely in what was stated.
If you have a different understanding then give everyone on the forum the respect to do likewise and explain it clearly and completely.
Otherwise STFU.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1211498]I totally agree with you.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1211504]His description was pretty good, the only reason you should step is because you have not controlled your center by losing it, or you don’t have a structure supported by the ground to be able be the main center both people rotate around.
If you are moving or stepping you are going around the other guys center line, which could work if he does not make the small rotation to follow you, which just means he is no good, otherwise you will be the guy at the disadvantage .[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1211512]Thanks for that
Careful though, or he may get his fragile ego hurt, take his toys and go home by deleting this thread too :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
I did make a more detailed explanation, but realized it would be wasted typing, so deleted BEFORE I posted it, a reason I tend to delete posts, on reflection I decide its wasted effort…'nuff to give my personal opinion as I like guys.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1211650]I did make a more detailed explanation, but realized it would be wasted typing, so deleted BEFORE I posted it, a reason I tend to delete posts, on reflection I decide its wasted effort…'nuff to give my personal opinion as I like guys.[/QUOTE]
Well, how noble of you.
Maybe a better reason is your stuff is based on something other than WC theory and you know that your explanation does not hold water.
Just running around being faster and stronger than someone else does not mean you are practicing an art based on efficiency .
Two guys trying to lap Sao on each other is not application on art, only training exercise against another wc guy.
Maybe a better reason is your stuff is based on something other than WC theory and you know that your explanation does not hold water.
Just running around being faster and stronger than someone else does not mean you are practicing an art based on efficiency .
Two guys trying to lap Sao on each other is not application on art, only training exercise against another wc guy.[/QUOTE]
Noble, me, you shouldn’t have
More like nobody will understand, Graham knows what I mean. Abstract concepts cannot be typed, they have to be experienced to understand the simplicity.
Just running around ?
Yes Laap sao is a conditioning drill, CONDITIONING our punching so it is mindless…a concept guys might like Wu Shin…the Japanese say Mushin, mindless execution.
Certain techniques of VT allow this mindless intercepting ability, further to this idea is our conditioning certain arm angles, elbow positions that back up this idea…the less we think about our actions the more they become like reflex reactions, faster…
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1211650]I did make a more detailed explanation, but realized it would be wasted typing, so deleted BEFORE I posted it, a reason I tend to delete posts, on reflection I decide its wasted effort…'nuff to give my personal opinion as I like guys.[/QUOTE]
on reflection you decide its wasted effort. what a load. then don’t post anything at all.
yes its hard to explain concepts over the internet. but people get it. i’m kind of getting what you’re saying about snt and ck and dependencies for fighting.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1211689]on reflection you decide its wasted effort. what a load. then don’t post anything at all.
yes its hard to explain concepts over the internet. but people get it. i’m kind of getting what you’re saying about snt and ck and dependencies for fighting.[/QUOTE]
Its tuff, post, delete ?? when the threads go south I like to eject, like I do in fighting and start again .
Dynamics are present in the chum kil, not applications… turning on the spot back and forth, hips and vertical axis alignment… heels like Eiffel tower , not leaning tower of Pizza. Simply a balance and force generating module. Stepping in Chum kil is normally seen as a stage of 1-2-3 again…try 1 step bong wu finish..in 1 beat. Like Jack dempseys fall away punch, he used bodyweight , momentum in a controlled burst to generate force…same ideas. Facing at various angles, speed of bong rotation to create kinetic force…
Then have a guy put a fist in your face and try to step bong wu and use the bong like a pak sao to slap it out of the way, sideways, not forwards. turn the guy.
It takes time to type and retype then reread and retype to even try to make sense…ergo delete or short response, I know isnt fair but …
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1211664]Noble, me, you shouldn’t have
More like nobody will understand, Graham knows what I mean. Abstract concepts cannot be typed, they have to be experienced to understand the simplicity.
Just running around ?
Yes Laap sao is a conditioning drill, CONDITIONING our punching so it is mindless…a concept guys might like Wu Shin…the Japanese say Mushin, mindless execution.
Certain techniques of VT allow this mindless intercepting ability, further to this idea is our conditioning certain arm angles, elbow positions that back up this idea…the less we think about our actions the more they become like reflex reactions, faster…[/QUOTE]
Your mindless abilities don’t won’t work when your off balance or jammed. You guys just stand in front of each other at set distance and think this is it, all staged and set to your wc parameters.
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1211696]Your mindless abilities don’t won’t work when your off balance or jammed. You guys just stand in front of each other at set distance and think this is it, all staged and set to your wc parameters.[/QUOTE]
Of course. We are drilling certain ideas at various stages, some drills are stationary because the arms alignment can go off if stepping and angling is added. Its modular in design. We string modules together during chi-sao. Gor sao is a random exchange without forewarning and modularization going on, its to make the partners react/act mindlessly and see errors to go slower on later in isolated modules…
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1211699]Of course. We are drilling certain ideas at various stages, some drills are stationary because the arms alignment can go off if stepping and angling is added. Its modular in design. We string modules together during chi-sao. Gor sao is a random exchange without forewarning and modularization going on, its to make the partners react/act mindlessly and see errors to go slower on later in isolated modules…
Fighting is not chi-sao.[/QUOTE]
Your missing the point, somethings just need to be experenced.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1211694]Its tuff, post, delete ?? when the threads go south I like to eject, like I do in fighting and start again .
Dynamics are present in the chum kil, not applications… turning on the spot back and forth, hips and vertical axis alignment… heels like Eiffel tower , not leaning tower of Pizza. Simply a balance and force generating module. Stepping in Chum kil is normally seen as a stage of 1-2-3 again…try 1 step bong wu finish..in 1 beat. Like Jack dempseys fall away punch, he used bodyweight , momentum in a controlled burst to generate force…same ideas. Facing at various angles, speed of bong rotation to create kinetic force…
Then have a guy put a fist in your face and try to step bong wu and use the bong like a pak sao to slap it out of the way, sideways, not forwards. turn the guy.
It takes time to type and retype then reread and retype to even try to make sense…ergo delete or short response, I know isnt fair but …[/QUOTE]
Your still just talking about body level movements, no need, does not matter.
[QUOTE=kentchang;1211646]Yik Kam, an unknown junior actor went to study Omei 12 palms exercises and Fukien white crane boxing. Later he mixed them up and called his art Yik Kam SLT (One long form). Here are the questions for Hendrik below.
Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai were the most senior wing chun practitioners of the Red Boat Opera at that time. Evidently they came before Yik Kam’s time. That presents a very important question, who was really practicing genuine wck at that time? Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai were very well known for their wck in public. Where was the junior Yik Kam and what was he doing at that time? Was he still a student of some unknown Omei teacher? What’s the name of the Omei teacher? So far, what people see of Yik Kam’s SLT, is not impressive. There is not enough data or information to support your claim that Yik Kam’s art is the original wck? If you truly want to promote and preserve Yik Kam’s art, then you should make it clear to the public that the Yik Kam SLT was from Omie, therefore, it should be called Omie SLT (one long Omie exercise form) different than the SLT/CK/BJ from all other wing chun lineages. Once that’s clear to the public,that will help you to find some peace within yourself. Now, you don’t have to repeat your endless "1850, Omie, White Crane and SLT (one long little exercise form originally from Omie 12 palms) "[/QUOTE]
Interesting to note Hendrick has tied himself to Snake Crane WC and claims many similarities. The biggest problem is his one long set only exists in Cho Ga WC whose WC comes from Yik Kam. All other families of WC have three sets including Snake Crane. Snake Crane Master says his WC always has three sets from Dai Fa Min Kam.
The Red Boat Ancestor for Snake Crane WC is Dai Fa Min Kam. Dai Fa Min Kam or Sun Kam taught three sets to Law Tiu Wen. However he taught only one set to Fung Siu Ching. That set being Sap Yat Kuen.
Snake Crane Master has said his WC is very similar to Yuen Kay San WC. Interesting to know is Yuen Kay San learned from both Fung Siu Ching and Fok Bo Chuen. Fok Bo Chuen taught three sets. Fok Bo Chuen learned his WC from Wong Wah Bo and Dai Fa Min Kam.
So no matter how you look at it the three set WC is taught by all senior members of the red boat era. The only one with one long set is the junior player Yik Kam.
I think what Yik Kam left to the Cho Family is very important history. But it is not the original face of wing chun. And as handjob likes to say - these are facts.
It would be interesting to research why Dai Fa Min Kam “Sun Kam” taught one curriculum to Fung Siu Ching and another to Law Tiu Wen. And also where or how he learned both curriculum. This would be very good indeed.
