Real quick .. I’m getting ready to go eat. If I’m not mistaken, Grandmaster Sin went back to Indonesia a while back and trained with one of his teachers that is still alive. Grandmaster Ie had a few others helping him teach, and I believe one is still alive. GM Sin had forgotten some forms and went back to brush up on it and quite possibly to learn more forms. But I do believe the bulk of his material was learned as a youth.
Originally posted by MasterKiller
Do you guys think Sin The’ is still learning stuff, or is it your belief that everything he teaches is from his original training as a youth?
I think he’s probably still learning stuff off VIDEOs to compliment his Karate training and then passing it off as stuff he learned from a dog-like shaolin monk…oh…ooops…did I let the cat out of the bag.
Originally posted by MasterKiller
Do you guys think Sin The’ is still learning stuff, or is it your belief that everything he teaches is from his original training as a youth?
To be honest, I don’t know. I know much of this stuff he taught out very early to a few students so I think that these forms were learned from his youth. His teacher, GM Ie was a student in the temple for a while and then allegedly travelled extensively throughout China before settling in Indonesia.
I hope he is still learning stuff because I think one needs to continue to learn as they go along. It shouldn’t be different for a Master. I don’t think he is making the stuff up or simply learning a form from a tape or book and then passing it off as his own, but I’m sure that some people will disagree.
I think his emphasis has changed in his teaching. As he has gotten older he seems to focus on internal arts more. I simply don’t know what he knows and what he doesn’t. I know what I have been taught and I know that I don’t have a full understanding of everything that I have been taught yet. I’ve been at the for 14 years and I just now feel confident with the nuiances of some of the first material that I learned. I practice the newer material that I have been taught with the hope that my understanding will also grow in time.
Originally posted by Fu-Pow
[B]
I think he’s probably still learning stuff off VIDEOs to compliment his Karate training and then passing it off as stuff he learned from a dog-like shaolin monk…oh…ooops…did I let the cat out of the bag. [/B]
What is your frame of reference for your opinions? I could care less about your comments except you are speaking as if you KNOW SD is fake or karate or whatever. Have you studied it? Have you visited schools and Masters and spoke with accurate representations of the style, or are you just someone who is ****ed off at what they read on the internet and likes to talk crap? I’ve never said anything bad about another system here so why do you?
I had heard the same thing emecer. I know that Ie had several contemporaies that taught along with Ie. One of these primarily taught his brother Hiang.
Fu Pow, I was pretty much going to ignore the garbage coming out of your mouth. But I will tell you one thing. You make pretty big assumptions on someone you have never met. You spend a page telling me how my forms are not up to par and how poorly I perform them. That is simply amazing; you must be related to Uri Geiler. If you ever watched me in person I guarantee you I would surprise you with my prowess. (Not saying I am the best or nowhere near the best, just that you are highly underestimating some of us)
It is fruitless to even talk to you; you can’t even have an adult conversation. Even though my initial reactions to MasterKiller, AfricanTiger, and a few others dissing my art were not that high. Since our initial clashings on the boards they have shown they can discuss and debate things in a respectable manner. You sir, do not have that ability.
Well you guys have sort of answered some of my questions…
But I’ll ask again this one:
Do you think that conflicting aspects of arts hinder your progress?
etc.. see last post.
Grandmaster Ie had a few others helping him teach
Does this mean there are independent lineages operating in Indonesia? What do they call their system if Shaolin-Do was coined in the mid-80s?
Originally posted by norther practitioner
Well you guys have sort of answered some of my questions…
But I’ll ask again this one:
Do you think that conflicting aspects of arts hinder your progress?
etc.. see last post.
Not only do I think it can, I think it often does. Hense so many sorry representations of SD out there. I have seen some that do their forms well and you can see a distinguishable difference in their body mechanics but they are rare and they are usually the full time student/teachers. More often I see people that are really good at one type of form, and they make everything else look like their favorite forms.
I know my sifu teaches the nuiances, but I don’t always pick them up even after I have learned and can perform the form. Like I said, my beginer material is starting to look like it should and I’ve been at it 14 years.
Originally posted by MasterKiller
Does this mean there are independent lineages operating in Indonesia? What do they call their system if Shaolin-Do was coined in the mid-80s?
I’ve wondered the same thing. I don’t know. I guess you can say that Hiang The is an independant lineage in America. I haven’t had anyone answer this question before.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by themeecer
[B]Fu Pow, I was pretty much going to ignore the garbage coming out of your mouth. But I will tell you one thing. You make pretty big assumptions on someone you have never met.
You spend a page telling me how my forms are not up to par and how poorly I perform them. That is simply amazing; you must be related to Uri Geiler. If you ever watched me in person I guarantee you I would surprise you with my prowess. (Not saying I am the best or nowhere near the best, just that you are highly underestimating some of us)
****You confuse what I say. Obviously, from years of mental brainwashing. Kung fu is as much about individual effort and talent as it is about the particular style that you practice. Within any style there are individuals that come into the training with natural atheltic ability. However, your “style” is convoluted. And those individuals within your organization that have retained those abilities are lucky. Your curriculum does nothing to enhance or improve those innate fighting abilites that we all possess. It is a mishmash of conflicting styles. Put bluntly…those in Shaolin Do are not reaching the full potential that they could by in depth study of a solid, reputable system of learning.
It is fruitless to even talk to you; you can’t even have an adult conversation.
I’m quite capable. But I don’t dance around the obvious trying to spare your ego or be “likeable.” I’m telling it like it is. You are wasting your time. We have “saved” other people on this board from wasting there time with this Hong Kong Phooey bull*. Perhaps, we can “save” you too.
Even though my initial reactions to MasterKiller, AfricanTiger, and a few others dissing my art were not that high. Since our initial clashings on the boards they have shown they can discuss and debate things in a respectable manner.
***My intention is not to debate you. I know for a fact that Shaolin Do is crap. Why? Because I learn from some of the most highly sought after lineages and teachers in the world (in Chen Taiji, Xin Yi and Choy Lay Fut). I have been doing MA’s long enough to have a frame of reference from which to draw conclusions.
Can you say the same?
You sir, do not have that ability.
***Sorry, if I’m not being polite. But quite frankly, the whole concept of Shaolin Do is offensive. I cut straight to the chase.
Shaolin Do is junk, don’t waste anymore time and money.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Judge Pen
[B]
What is your frame of reference for your opinions?
***My own training.
I could care less about your comments except you are speaking as if you KNOW SD is fake or karate or whatever.
***I can tell by watching the videos on Shaolin Center, the fact that your lineage is so ridiculous as to be laughable, you do kung fu but wear Gi’s? and the fact that you teach a mishmash of conflicting styles all taught under one roof. And that’s just scratching the surface.
Have you studied it?
***I don’t have to have studied it to know it is weak sauce.
Have you visited schools and Masters and spoke with accurate representations of the style, or are you just someone who is ****ed off at what they read on the internet
***I think Shaolin Do is offensive.
and likes to talk crap?
**Just telling it like it is.
I’ve never said anything bad about another system here so why do you?
***I don’t either. But Shaolin Do is not a “system.” It is a mishmash. A Chop Suey. A mass marketed pile of dog ****.
Originally posted by Fu-Pow
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Judge Pen
[B]
What is your frame of reference for your opinions?
***My own training.
I could care less about your comments except you are speaking as if you KNOW SD is fake or karate or whatever.
***I can tell by watching the videos on Shaolin Center, the fact that your lineage is so ridiculous as to be laughable, you do kung fu but wear Gi’s? and the fact that you teach a mishmash of conflicting styles all taught under one roof. And that’s just scratching the surface.
Have you studied it?
***I don’t have to have studied it to know it is weak sauce.
Have you visited schools and Masters and spoke with accurate representations of the style, or are you just someone who is ****ed off at what they read on the internet
***I think Shaolin Do is offensive.
and likes to talk crap?
**Just telling it like it is.
I’ve never said anything bad about another system here so why do you?
***I don’t either. But Shaolin Do is not a “system.” It is a mishmash. A Chop Suey. A mass marketed pile of dog ****. [/B]
Oh I see. A few years of training qualifies you to disrespect mine based upon some forms posted on the internet? A questionable lineage? Read Chinese martial history and much of it is questionable and filled with myths. Be careful you might indicte yourself.
Keep on believeing what ever you want. For a second I thought you may be able to support your opinions. My bad.
I just wish Fu-Pow would learn to close his [quote] tags correctly.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Judge Pen
[B]
Oh I see. A few years of training qualifies you to disrespect mine based upon some forms posted on the internet?
****Not even comparable.
A questionable lineage? Read Chinese martial history and much of it is questionable and filled with myths.
***For both my styles I can accurately trace things back around 200 years.
Keep on believeing what ever you want. For a second I thought you may be able to support your opinions. My bad.
***I’m just trying to help you suckers out. If you want to keep getting taken then keep at it. Maybe when enough people tell you whats up it’ll sink in.
Anyways, good luck with your Stomping Drunken Immortal Form and your Double Straightwords. Both of those look REALLY scary.
I’m waiting for Sin The to come out with a Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Form…or maybe a Yoda Jedi Sword Form…you know like from the movie where Yoda goes all crazy .
That would be dope.
Lineage, etc.
Originally posted by Judge Pen
[B]
I’ve wondered the same thing. I don’t know. I guess you can say that Hiang The is an independant lineage in America. I haven’t had anyone answer this question before. [/B]
As for lineages, perhaps there were other students of Ie Chang Ming who remained in Southeast Asia and taught kung fu, but who knows. One thing that we have to keep in mind is one of the motives for teaching the system in the way that it is taught. The fukien temple was burned down and the monks dispersed, Great-grandmaster Ie Chang Ming being one of them. While there were many kung fu practioners who studied specific styles outside of the temples and still travelled around to learn other styles or from other teachers, the monks in the temples also learned different styles from one another. Ie chang ming had to flee to Indonesia after he killed soldiers that tried to make him kiss the ground, and a bounty was placed on him. Because this was at a time when the martial arts knowledge from the temples was being threatened, Ie chang ming developed a curriculum to preserve the body of knowledge that he had attained through his teachers. Now whether one believes this story or not is up to him/her, but you have to appreciate the fact that every martial arts style has a geneology that it claims, and some are verifiable and some are just impossible to corroborate. every art has its legends and its claims that a student comes to understand only through serious training. how many of our styles purport chi powers or iron palm abilities that are to be attained with years or decades of training? how do you guys think that would sound if you were debating in a forum with aggressive skeptics who just dismissed anything you said without evidence?
The fact is that there are pictures of Ie Chang Ming with Grandmaster Sin The as well as his brother Hiang The. While the extent of their education under Ie Chang Ming wasn’t exactly the same (both in terms of time and instruction by other teachers), you have two men who are now in the US teaching similar systems (but different). If anyone is curious just browse the web for Hiang The and u will come across Central Shaolin schools of Kentucky. You will notice that his senior students are also specialists in specific styles though they have a similar training base to that of Shaolin-do students. So for all those skeptical, this must then be one of the greatest conspiracies in the history of SHAOLIN for two chinese brothers to come from Indonesia to teach kung fu! if you’re still skeptical, do a little research, and you will find pictures of Grandmaster sin the with senior students in front of pillars that were erected for them at the temples in both Hunan and Fukien province. If you can read Chinese, you will see that they are commemorating grandmaster sin for his preservation of shaolin arts. one of the reasons is that sin the had demonstrating specific forms that the monks thought were lost to them when the fukien temple was last destroyed, besides the fact that he had carried out the legacy of a former temple monk. perhaps the skeptics would argue that the monks were just naive about the futility of sin the’s applications of the forms. to those, there is just nothing more i can say. the bottom line for me is that i dont care if you don’t like a specific art, but how can one try to attack it or one of its practioners so antagonisticly and yet call himself a traditional martial artist that is supposed to espouse ancient martial codes and ethics. you almost remind me of the kobrakai guys in karate kid!
below is a brief description of sin the’s teacher. if you want to check out about HIS teacher (who’s picture will be interesting to those who are at all familiar with where the werewolf legend comes from, just go to www.shaolincenter.com and click on lineage. i think it’s important for anyone interested in this debate to understand why it’s called DO, why we where gi’s, why Sin The called his place Karate gym, etc. also keep in mind that when shaolin-do advertises itself as coming from a legacy preserving the shaolin arts, it means preserving the shaolin arts as they were taught in the fukien temple and as learned by the elder grandmasters before the temple’s destruction. it is not claiming to be the sole preserver of kung fu or the way the styles were taught everywhere else in China.
From the website: “Ie Chang Ming inherited the immense body of Shaolin knowledge as a master at the Fukien temple and received the Grand Master title after the burning of the last temple from Great Grand Master Su Kong Tai Djin. Grand Master Ming left China and settled in Bandung, Indonesia where he began to teach the Shaolin art. In Indonesia a law was passed prohibiting the teaching of Chinese Martial Arts. Grand Master Ie circumvented this law by adopting many of the trappings of the Japanese styles of martial arts. He changed the name from Shaolin Tao to Shaolin Do. He changed the uniforms from the classical Chinese styles to the Japanese karate gi’s. He also used Japanese belts instead of the Chinese sash and instituted a ranking system similar to the Japanese using Japanese names. The changes, although cosmetic, were enough for the authorities and he was allowed to continue to teach. It was not easy to become a student of Grand Master Ie. There was a long waiting line and each prospective student had to prove their worthiness to receive training from him. Although no one knew it at the time, Grand Master Ie’s exile was important to the preservation of the Shaolin Art. His rigorous training standards and teaching maintained the true tradition of Shaolin. Yet, his flexibility, in modifying the outward trappings of the art, ensured that Shaolin Tao would not be lost.”
quote:
Originally posted by MasterKiller
Does this mean there are independent lineages operating in Indonesia? What do they call their system if Shaolin-Do was coined in the mid-80s?
I’ve wondered the same thing. I don’t know. I guess you can say that Hiang The is an independant lineage in America. I haven’t had anyone answer this question before.
I thought Hiang used a different name for what he did… based on some sort of bird or something… I think it was talked about in one of the old shaolin-do threads on the Shaolin forum. Good luck finding the post though, lol
and you will find pictures of Grandmaster sin the with senior students in front of pillars that were erected for them at the temples in both Hunan and Fukien province.
Donating money to a temple to get a slab of stone erected is hardly the honor you associate with it.
People here have translated that stone, and it does not say what you claim it does.
And everyone knows the Soards paid to have it erected in the first place.
So for all those skeptical, this must then be one of the greatest conspiracies in the history of SHAOLIN for two chinese brothers to come from Indonesia to teach kung fu!
If they weren’t related, and trained at different times, it might add credence to your claims. The fact that they are so closely tied together suggests a conspiracy on their part, not Shaolin’s.
I know that the first slab has a dedication (in English…no need for “translation”) to GM Sin from his students (the Soard branch I believe). Used to not be a big deal to have a tablet…when the temple was struggling they’d take most anyone as I understand it. There’s even supposed to be a TKD school’s tablet.
There’s also a tablet in Chen village to GM Sin, again from his students.
From what I understand, the tablet was first bought by the Soards on a trip they took without Sin. The first inscription was bascially a generic reference to their trip to Shaolin, then when they travelled there with Sin later on, they had another inscription added, which again was basically a generic reference to their trip to Shaolin. Hardly an item that declares anything at all. Especially since it was paid for. Used to be able to find pictures of the inscription on the net.
As far as the lineage, Hiang and Sin are completely separate as far as affiliation, but teach a lot of the same stuff, and a lot of different stuff too. They taught separately in this country at first and at different points along the way. They did teach together at some points also. They have been completely separate for a while now.
There is only one major teacher still alive in Indonesia at the time that I know of but I’m no expert on it. The style was called Chung Yen Shaolin in Indonesia. And if Sin has been going back and learning additional material, I have to ask why? According to the history he has put out, including his book, he learned his 950 forms in 10 years back when he was young, before he ever left for the US.
sorry for the double post, computer freaked out for a minute