Here’s a nice clip of my buddy Kai teaching in his school (his cellar, hence the bad lighting).
I really like the way he trains. Puts the student under pressure, but also lets him “in” to practice attack/counter-attack.
Another typical interaction from the WSL family? Good, but ‘typical’. Very basic Looksau and Sansau training with Lapsau thrown in.
I agree that this type of training is good for new students, but very little Chisau in there from what I could see (which again is a trait of WSL guys imho!)
Again, good solid training for beginners 
Problem is you have to progress! Simon Lau was doing very similar stuff here in the UK in the late 70’s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50N6FqOVyzM&feature=related
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1090354]Another typical interaction from the WSL family? Good, but ‘typical’. Very basic Looksau and Sansau training with Lapsau thrown in.
I agree that this type of training is good for new students, but very little Chisau in there from what I could see (which again is a trait of WSL guys imho!)
Again, good solid training for beginners Problem is you have to progress! Simon Lau was doing very similar stuff here in the UK in the late 70’s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50N6FqOVyzM&feature=related[/QUOTE]
Welcome back Terence!!
Honestly?? Really?? Is that what you think???
Shame there isnt more clips like that and less like the ones you post me old mukka!!!
GH
Lots of problem with the hunch back.. now that’s where the pain comes in.
while i like the clips it dont think its good for the lesser guys training to stop after the first attack gets though. far enough if he was actually contacting as it would give a slight hesitation but he seems to stop as soon as any punch gets through letting several instead of coming back and attacking himself.
Some reallt nice pak sao and punches. nicley slipped. looked mad.
ok lone tiger show us your “advanced” trainning then we will can decide. It looked like two guys training. Each letting they other practice attacking once the other gained a good position. While each was learning Im guessing that you wanted two guys killing each other.
Bring on your videos.
@LoneTiger,
I watched the clip you posted, and I don’t see any similarities other than training “intensity” perhaps. Totally different in IMHO.
Let’s remember that this is a student training to learn how to deal with pressure from his teacher and limit his mistakes.
Going beyond would mean sparring at various intensities, and sparring against people who don’t do wing chun - both being indispensable to the development of the student.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1090365]Honestly?? Really?? Is that what you think???[/QUOTE]
Well, it’s nice to know the difference between chi (sticking) and look (rotating) but I suppose that goes right over your head? And yes, I stick by my guns, that’s great training for beginners.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;1090370]ok lone tiger show us your “advanced” trainning then we will can decide. It looked like two guys training. Each letting they other practice attacking once the other gained a good position. While each was learning Im guessing that you wanted two guys killing each other.
Bring on your videos.[/QUOTE]
Wow! So I’m in everyones sights today eh? I’m cool with that 
Why would what I have to offer as ‘advanced interactions’ even help anyone when you can’t understand the nature of my comments about this type of exercise? Tell you wahat, ask the Sifu in the clip to upload a more advanced version of his ‘chisau’ and see what you get. It will make more sense to you.
Why is there a problem with me saying what it is? It’s very basic guys. Can’t you deal with that? Nothing at all wrong with being basic imho especially when it’s good quality 
[QUOTE=Sean66;1090383]@LoneTiger,
I watched the clip you posted, and I don’t see any similarities other than training “intensity” perhaps. Totally different in IMHO.[/QUOTE]
Really? The interactive exercise Sifu Lau is showing at certain points of the clip is the same, with a variation on his posturing (and intensity as you suggest). Single and double posture looksau (rotating arm).
I just used the clip as an example of this rotation in the earlier days of Wing Chun. That’s all. Basics.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1090354]Another typical interaction from the WSL family? Good, but ‘typical’. Very basic Looksau and Sansau training with Lapsau thrown in.
I agree that this type of training is good for new students, but very little Chisau in there from what I could see (which again is a trait of WSL guys imho!)
Again, good solid training for beginners Problem is you have to progress! Simon Lau was doing very similar stuff here in the UK in the late 70’s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50N6FqOVyzM&feature=related[/QUOTE]
I went to that old church building in the S Lau clip to investigate escrima in 84’, memories. What GH said, your NOT feeling the energy exchange in the clip and ASSuME that it’s the same ideas as yourself being worked…NOT !
I have met SL students, some joined VKan and we ‘wristed’ aka sticky-wristed each other in a battle :D:D same s h i t .
Spencer a guy who was learning the L Sing>J Lee lineage joined up in NYC , English guy. So I can see first hand the idea he was given. Try doing that with PB when you get to Germany.
your not seeing an idea in development Spencer. Your seeing what you know chi-sao to be, thats why its not that great for clips of chi-sao…it looks pretty similar on the outside. What I would see before hearing P Bayers explanations, would also be yours…not anymore.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1090365]Shame there isnt more clips like that and less like the ones you post me old mukka!!![/QUOTE]
At least I try dude.
I have yet to see anything from your personal collection. And that speaks volumes.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1090402]Spencer a guy who was learning the L Sing>J Lee lineage joined up in NYC , English guy. So I can see first hand the idea he was given. Try doing that with PB when you get to Germany.[/QUOTE]
Without a name that means nothing to me mate. He could have passed through in 2 weeks!
What is wrong with you guys? Can’t take just a ‘little’ criticism?? Actually, it wasn’t even a critique, just a statement of the basic nature of the interaction! And a compliment in many respects.
By the way, I have met a few WSL players too (who have all been gentlemen) and they done the same Looksau and were intrigued to see their drills ‘not work’ And I’ve also rotated with WSL guys earlier on in my training and I was thrown all round the kitchen! So I have experienced what you promote, and have a level of respect for WSL and his students that you guys could only ever dream of having for anything that sits outside your mould. That’s just not my problem. It’s a problem within the WSL family and it will be sorted from within fme.
Time is the greatest tool any of us have, especially if your training sticks to the true nature of Wing Chun. You progress every year. No stagnation. So if you’re still rotating like this with your brothers (not new students) then you may have missed that little red boat
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1090413]Without a name that means nothing to me mate. He could have passed through in 2 weeks!
What is wrong with you guys? Can’t take just a ‘little’ criticism?? Actually, it wasn’t even a critique, just a statement of the basic nature of the interaction! And a compliment in many respects.
By the way, I have met a few WSL players too (who have all been gentlemen) and they done the same Looksau and were intrigued to see their drills ‘not work’ And I’ve also rotated with WSL guys earlier on in my training and I was thrown all round the kitchen! So I have experienced what you promote, and have a level of respect for WSL and his students that you guys could only ever dream of having for anything that sits outside your mould. That’s just not my problem. It’s a problem within the WSL family and it will be sorted from within fme.
Time is the greatest tool any of us have, especially if your training sticks to the true nature of Wing Chun. You progress every year. No stagnation. So if you’re still rotating like this with your brothers (not new students) then you may have missed that little red boat ;)[/QUOTE]
when you meet Philipp, say little red boat to yourself…
I’m with lonetiger on this. Wing chun people have been doing this kind of training for years and now it’s the only videos we ever get to see. This kind of training is so basic. If they put gloves on with headgear, and started at a distance, I bet the smaller guy would look a lot better. Chi sao, or any drills where the arms are connected, allows for safety of the people doing them. It’s safe because you’re only dealing with a few kinds of attacks and once you understand that you can take advantage of people who haven’t learned how to deal with the same kind of attacks. Add kicks in and it won’t look like this clip at all.
Have someone who does wrestling do this same drill with the teacher and it won’t go that way at all.
This kind of training is good in the beginning but hinders wing chun people in the long run. Then you see wc guys trying to do the pak/jab at someone from the long range.
Your seeing what Spencer is seeing..
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1090415] when you meet Philipp, say little red boat to yourself…;)[/QUOTE]
I’m sure Sifu Bayer will be amicable when (and if!) we meet. I don’t believe he teaches all his students to be like you. But then again, I wouldn’t know because you are one of the many who has shared nothing for us to ‘see’.
Put a clip up of ‘your level’ of chisau and let us see how yours has progressed from the original clip that started this thread…
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1090423]Your seeing what Spencer is seeing..[/QUOTE]
I’ve been doing drills like this for years in wc and this is what I noticed before I switched up the way I train. As soon as sparring happened I realized that punches come from all angles and not just straight like in chi sao. This may be “common sense” but training wc chi sao doesn’t train your muscle memory to deal with attacks outside of the chi sao paradigm.
Hey,
Aw, come on guys, I didn’t want to turn this into another “my **** is better than your ****” thread!
LoneTiger complemented the clip and stated that you have to progress. And I agree with that. And so do the guys in the clip.
Shown in the clip is just one aspect of the training “progression”.
Sparring and sparring against people who don’t do wing chun is another aspect. So Savvy’s got a good point, too.
What I respectfully don’t agree with is that chi sao doesn’t give you the tools to deal with attacks from “outside the chi sao paradigm”.
Chi sao should not only train and develop the delivery system, so to speak, for wing chun’s weapons, but should also train things like; balance, feeling for distance, efficiency of movement, as well as strategic concepts. Things that are necessary no matter who you are squaring off with.
The tools are there, you just have to train them intelligently.
[QUOTE=Sean66;1090465]LoneTiger complemented the clip and stated that you have to progress. And I agree with that. And so do the guys in the clip.[/QUOTE]
Its nice to see that someone here didn’t misinterpret what I was saying. Not only do I think that this drill is a great exercise, I also think that moving images says more than any written word on this forum sometimes! And that is why I respect anyone who shares footage like you have here.
[QUOTE=Sean66;1090465]… What I respectfully don’t agree with is that chi sao doesn’t give you the tools to deal with attacks from “outside the chi sao paradigm”.[/QUOTE]
And I agree here too. Although, me being me, I will replace ‘chisau’ with ‘interactive training’! For me, Chisau is a manipulation tool. It’s there to help us teach and also to help us understand how to shut down an offensive or incorrect method ‘instantly’ upon contact.
Fighting from outside the chisau paradigm is called Gorsau from my limited memory, and not many Wing Chun clubs do this often unless they’re into sparring or competition. Not my cup of tea, but something I can coach through various interactive programs. For the right person
Nice training clip. I can see a lot of Michael in Kai’s way of moving.