…I would like to share these new chi sao training vids I just did a few days ago with some of my students.
Please watch them sequentially: 1,2,3 etc…
And there will be more coming wherein I’ll show applications/translations of what’s in the chi sao drills to actual fighting.
And the hard contact sparring video I promised recently on a different thread is also coming in March.
AND I WANT TO ENCOURAGE EVERYBODY TO SHARE WHAT THEY DO WITH VIDS OF THEIR OWN.
Have you ever tried to apply chi sao with different “hands” or VS different systems?
Yeah, a few times. Quite a long time ago, actually. I prefer to spar when working out with guys from other systems.
My view about chi sao is that it’s nothing more than a drill, albeit a very good one.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;917372]Yeah, a few times. Quite a long time ago, actually. I prefer to spar when working out with guys from other systems.
My view about chi sao is that it’s nothing more than a drill, albeit a very good one.[/QUOTE]
Oh I agree, on all points.
When I first started WC, Sifu Chan was delighted to have a BB in Karate and former Boxer for his people to spar with.
With regards to vid #2. Are you actively going from Bong to Tan? Or is your partner applying pressure to push you to bong to tan? I cant tell from the vid.
I was shown in one wc system they start out having the Bong/Tan person be active and the fook person follows (in the beginning of learning double arm chi sao) and in another system it was the Fook Sao person who applies pressure to push the person from Tan to Bong and vice versa and the Bong/Tan Person is following the low/high Fook (mid/high?).
Both said that after awhile its more mutual, but in terms of teaching i was curious which you are doing?
On Vid#3. Good explanation of forward energy using the entire body not just the arms.
On Vid #7 when he pushes up on your fook sao, i see you call it Huen Sao. i was shown that this is called Kow(kau sao) from the dummy. Nonetheless, i love that reaction 
On Vid #8. I like how you add the footwork into the chi sao.
Question on Vid 10. The first elbow strike from your parnters bong sao. Why not bong sao and shift to the outside of his elbow strike rather than try to slow his elbow down with the lan sao and back up?
As for the elbow from the Fook, i like the notion of getting to his outside, but couldnt you also just punch?
Question on Vid 13: When you mean “random” is that random attacks from the previous vids only? Personally, i dont like completely “random” chi sao. It just degrades into patty cake. I do like that even though its “random” there is structure to it.
“With regards to vid #2. Are you actively going from Bong to Tan? Or is your partner applying pressure to push you to bong to tan? I cant tell from the vid.”
***YES, I’m actively going from bong to tan.
…
“Question on Vid 10. The first elbow strike from your partners bong sao. Why not bong sao and shift to the outside of his elbow strike rather than try to slow his elbow down with the lan sao and back up?”
***HARD to step to the outside of an elbow strike that’s coming down at you from an angle; and the backing up is giving wise respect to the power that an elbow strike with body motion behind it can have - but the lan sao and the wu/lop behind the lan allows me to “stick” to his arm and start controlling that side of his body.
…
"Question on Vid 13: When you mean ‘random’ is that random attacks from the previous vids only? Personally, I dont like completely ‘random’ chi sao. It just degrades into patty cake. I do like that even though its ‘random’ there is structure to it.
***THAT’S right. Random from previous vids only. And yes, it turns into random chi sao but with some structure behind it. This way you avoid making chi sao into some sort of a “sparring” match - which it’s not. Chi sao is chi sao - and sparring is sparring.
***HARD to step to the outside of an elbow strike that’s coming down at you from an angle;
So the elbow is coming from outside in than straight over the top. Gotcha. Yeah, tough to try to get to outside then.
***THAT’S right. Random from previous vids only. And yes, it turns into random chi sao but with some structure behind it. This way you avoid making chi sao into some sort of a “sparring” match - which it’s not. Chi sao is chi sao - and sparring is sparring.
Agreed. 100%.
Very nice vids.
It’s good that you encouraged us to watch them in sequence. It clarifies what’s going on. The drills are dead. They seem to be demonstrations of ideas more than actual drills.
It doesn’t really start to get interesting untill #6. The previous 5 feel like they are just demonstrating the basic mechanical structure of chi sau. Number 6 starts to introduce a couple of ideas but I wonder why you have the students make such classic mistakes. They are mistakes that are extremely typical of most fighters and they make sense to demo in the sense that it’s good to show how to capitalize on them but I think it might be more educational for your students if you made the mistakes so that they could learn to see why they are mistakes. As it is (up to clip 6 anyways) the drill seems to be encouraging the students to chase the hands. You refer to it in the clip as “pushing off the line” which is true but rather than having them push off the line and show how to take back the center, I think it may be more valuable to for you as an instructor to push off the line and give them chances to capitalize.
Really, each example or pushing off the line that I saw in that clip was also an example of chasing hands. Isn’t Chum Kiu supposed to teach something about that?
For instance, at 20 seconds in, the first example you give in the clip, why would he want to use the fuk sau to push across the line. The fuk sau should simply follow the line to your face which then, in turn, forces you to bong sau. If he pushes the fuk sau across the line he gets an elbow to the face as in biu ji (the form, not the techique)
One last note is that IMHO, the fingers are limp and that suggests that biu ji needs to be drilled more. The energy does not extend all the way to the fingertips for either of you in this particular set of videos.
p.s. I thoght 7 was better in that respect
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;917346]. . . . AND I WANT TO ENCOURAGE EVERYBODY TO SHARE WHAT THEY DO WITH VIDS OF THEIR OWN.[/QUOTE]
Ok, I will. Here’s a clip from a Milwaukee seminar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FbRfyWx1uE
“…but I wonder why you have the students make such classic mistakes. They are mistakes that are extremely typical of most fighters…” (omar)
***HA! I didn’t make them (or ask them)…they just made mistakes.
Chasing hands is one of the “curse” of Chi sao.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;917551]“…but I wonder why you have the students make such classic mistakes. They are mistakes that are extremely typical of most fighters…” (omar)
***HA! I didn’t make them (or ask them)…they just made mistakes. :)[/QUOTE]
As a teacher, one way to help them out of those habits is to reverse things. You sometimes have to feed them the mistakes on purpose. Sometimes you have to even pause and point out the mistake you are making and give them a little help capitalizing. If you present the mistakes from both perspectives the reason why they are wrong becomes clearer and I think it is easier to unlearn them.
“Chasing hands” is a human habit that goes beyong WC. It’s something that we absolutely depend on for certain things in Taiji. When the human body contacts another person in a MA context, it’s extremely instinctive to push back. You think you are pushing towards the person but in reality you are just pushing back towards the point of contact. That’s one reason why we train following and listening so extensively. It’s really hard to learn to hear what vector you are actually pushing on. I often like to pause and offer resistance to a push specifically in order to “shine a light” on the interaction, to ask things like, “Why are you pushing over that way. I’m over here…”
That’s what I saw in your student a lot in clip 6. Why push across the line? He’s over there…
Instead of dropping down and coming around at him like a one-deceive (fencing term), maybe resist his push a little and just point out what he’s doing. Point out that you are over there and not off the center-line somewhere to his right.
Why push across the line?
For the very reason that was also demoed in that vid. In a real situation, you may throw a punch and the guy takes it off the line…
either the way it was done in the vid (he pushed it across by extending his arm), or perhaps a boxer type might cover up with a block and push your punch across the line with his less extended cover (as he slightly turns his body)…
and you have to return to the line.
Because if you don’t, his covering hand/arm can strike back at you on the same (or close to the same) line you were just punching on.
If you throw a punch and “the guy” takes it off the line…
…the “the guy” made a mistake. It’s a bad habit (from a WC perspective) and should be corrected. That example doesn’t really argue that sometimes you should push off the line. It’s just an example showing how it happens. If you get pushed off, then it wasn’t really your choice was it? But beyond that, the distinction I am trying to make is more subtle. When “the guy” takes your punch off the line, what happened to his punch? Or to his blocking hand for that matter? Or was it a slapping parry? At the end of the motion that took you off the line did the guy end up also off the line? Or was he on the line but with his pressure aiming off the line? Or did he just “take” the line away from you and you got pushed off the line while he remains on it and barreling down it? Or did he reposition the line so that you got taken off it without even moving?
Of all of these possibilities, only a couple are really in keeping with WC tactics.
Properly played, pushing the hand across the line with the lower fuk sau makes no sense. He’s on top and on the inside so he should just “punch” at the face with the fuk sau which is why you have to bong sau in response.
Now granted, you did open the clip saying that you were going to be teaching the importance of taking back the line. I don’t deny that. This is more of a teaching philosophy. I think that if the focus is more clearly placed on hitting the guy and less on holding the line, you will find the line organically. The line is just a means to an end. The important thing is not the line; it is what the line gives you—right of way. (another fencing analogy)
Victor,
I haven’t gone through them, but are any of these actual ChiSao or is it a bunch of talk about ChiSao?
I think the point of this, and feel free to correct me if i’m wrong Victor, is that “the guy” is doing something “wrong” from a WC perspective for the benefit of his training partner. In other words, i give a trigger (whether it be within the scope of WC or not) and the other person should react properly to the trigger.
“The guy” is training Victor.
Personally i like doing chi sao with that intent. Not competitive, but one person gives a given set of triggers and attacks (whether it is in the scope of WC or not) and the other person needs to learn to react appropriately to those triggers. Less ego involved in that kind of training.
It’s chi sao, Tom. :rolleyes:
…
And yes, taojkd…you got it right.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;917788]It’s chi sao, Tom. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
… skimmed through the first three, no ChiSao yet. … skimmed the last one, some light stuff between you taking it pretty easy on someone of obvious lesser skill.
While I do appreciate the effort it took for you to put this together and also you putting yourself out there to stand the test of public scrutiny from a peer review and also the peanut gallery, let’s just say I was hoping for something else.
I’ll put your stuff on my list of things to watch whenever I get around to it, but I’d be hard pressed for a reason to have the rest of this jump the queue and them come up with any questions or comments for you. Sorry, I felt you were also looking for something else from me.
10+ clips of chi sao and zero sparring… um, OK.
You don’t see the problem with that type of training?
Hi Guys
Some of my Chi Sao clips -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPOlQyO6jkA&feature=related
My best
Alan