I decided to have a bit of a rant about a bunch of stuff ive been mulling over in my mind about the current state of Chinese martial arts and there combat viablity.
Ive done a lot of reading and a lot of talking to my sifu who has defended himself against armed mulitple attackers and still come out on top.
I have also been reading interviews and texts about the various famous masters whom we all list off with pride as being our accestors but there is something i CANT get around.
All of the ones who where well known and higher level all actualy used there arts. They where not in some pepetual state of ‘art’ they where many of them simply fighters who’s art advanced out of experience and necessity. None of these men rested on there laurals, all of them where willing to learn new things. All of them where considered pioneers and free thinkers who moved there art forward in new directions.
Now here comes the nasty part, most of the ones who were really good trained the way they wished to fight.
I read a lot of stuff about Yang style Tai Chi for example and found that while in the hands of Yang Lu Chan and his son it was always kept behind closed doors, not performed slowly, and was a fighters hand in the true sence of the word. Forms where a by product the main form of training was simply getting dirty and actualy getting it on. Think about it if your JOB is fighting as a bodygaurd you HAVE to be good, hence you get a bunch of other skilled artists together and you all compare notes and basicaly get down to buisness finding out exactly what works and why.
Now flash forward a couple of hundred years. MANY of us ( i certainly dont mean all) are blindly following on with what we THINK works and are TOLD has been used. Many dont spar and if they do they dont do it in such a fashion that it will properly benifit. The movements are all exectued well but what difference does it make when you have no idea why they where made that way in the first place.
Then the worst part about all of this is when someone else comes along and does things a different way and has some success these same people are usualy the first to cast harsh judgements.
What im trying to say is our heros spent there days in small rooms with a bunch of other guys getting bruised battered and then finaly finding a way to avoid it happening so badly next time. THESE people where the true fighters, how many of us can truely say we train that way now?
This is also where i take my hat off to the new reality crowd who although may not be from the same school of thought can truely say they DO train in this way. The problem with traditional arts is not that the techniques are useless its that the training method for them is NOT traditional. Many learn traditional techniques with a fast food training mentality and this defeats the purpose. I will put my money on a half trained boxer with some good experience who knows his or her strenghts and weakness over video taped trained ‘master’ of the deadlist fighting art known to man.
If one thing has not changed over the many years its the plain fact you get good at what you train at. If your focuss is forms and flashy looking jump kicks then you can expect to do them with the best. However you will still suck in combat vs someone who has made there express focuss how to avoid having there ass handed to them.
I love my CMA but im SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sick of hearing people go on about how special and fabulous it is. Most cma practioners would make fabulous dancers and terrible fighters. Half are so caught up in why they dont have to fight they have forgotten how there ‘art’ was invented in the first place.
This is a sentiment ive heard often from posters like MA Fanatic but everytime someone talks about there masters master who killed a man with a slap of his hand my eyes roll back in my head:rolleyes: When it comes down to it who cares what your great uncles bob could do, what can YOU do?
funny you mentioned that i just read in the taichi classics that yang hated the ching imperial gaurd and taught them what we now see as slow tai chi..wheras he didnt do it like that and he only taught his two sons and they wouldnt teach thier daughters because they would lose thier heads if it got out of the family yang taught the chings incorrect…but then it said if yang didnt teach them tai chi and these bourgie princes didnt do the dance taichi prolly would have died with industrialization!.
i just gleamed over this this morning and was going to make a post if it is true so its curious you posted this as i forgot, but i know thier has always been tofu legs and embroidery arms in kungfu, uno that corny prince thining he is maximus but the ****er may aswell have his underwear on over his tights:eek:
off to bed for me, do you know if its true yang taught the ching false?.
San shou incorporates 2 of these styles, Wrestling and muay thai.
MMA incorporates all 3 of these styels.
Actually i think that training by sparring is not traditinal kung fu. I think the problem is that kung fu was not really deveolped for fighting. The reason kung fu people do forms is becuase it is actaully a traditional chinese folk dance that has been confused as a fighting art. The chinese have recently discovered this and are now practicing wrestling and Muay thai in san shou.
i guess CMA who claim they are great at kung fu and constantly referring to how good their so and so ancestors are at fighting and do not engage in applying their techniques are the ppl you have your main problem with.
personally i dont really mind ppl who train for trainings sake. who do it for fitness, health etc and aren’t really all that interested in the fighting side of kung fu and are realistic with what they are getting from kung fu training.
another thing is sometimes smaller kwoons can’t really afford the insurance required to be able to adopt this kind of training.
i do understand how u feel tho’
im meeting up with ka and his friend tomorrow to get some takedowns and stuff demoed on me woohoo
will be very inetresting how r u going btw
I will put my money on a half trained boxer with some good experience who knows his or her strenghts and weakness over video taped trained ‘master’ of the deadlist fighting art known to man.
Interesting comment–experience is the mother of skill in this case. I know my boxing coach would never let a 0-0 guy step in against a guy who is 1-6
I think that if you want to criticize CMA, you could say that it is overly ambitious for the amount of time most people are willing to devote, that are in the target group of amatuer practioners. It really takes several years and bruises before you can really use the CMA jings and structure correctly in a fight. So I think every style should have a simple version of itself, to get people sparring and up to speed. One technique we employ, is to concentrate on just 1 or 2 moves per round and try to get that working, before you move on to the next thing. And as my teacher emphasizes over and over, you need to develop your most basic techniques. This cannot be over-emphasized - the basic techniques are what is going to win you the fight 90% of the time. The quality of CMA took an unfortunate dip with the cultural revolution. Then, modernization of society did away with the more brutal training methods. Back in the day, broken bones, etc, were a necessity of training. Now that our lives no longer depend on the study of MA, the risk/benefit ration is considerably different. The only solution is modernization of training methods - GLOVES, pads, bags, etc. Then, you think about where to get that indispensable combative experience - why, sportfighting of course! Anyone can do what Bruce Lee did, there were modernizers and tinkerers before him, and there continue to be the same kind of people afterwards and going forwards. He just popularized and gave a face to the concept. Really, we don’t owe a huge intellectual debt to him. It is up to the individual to discern what works for him and what needs to be improved. That said, anyone who has martial art experience and observes components of traditional CMA, will find a practically inexhaustable wealth of technique, strategy, knowledge of structure of the body, etc. Every time I learn about a CMA style, not just watch somebody waving their hands in the air, but actually feel and understand a way a movement and/or attack, I say to myself: “Genius, pure genius!” Because that’s what it is.
Actually, we DO owe a huge intellectual debt to what Lee did.
He made it clear on a worldwide media scale that kung fu was for FIGHTING, not demonstration.
In fact, old school traditional kung fu trained as Lee did: sparring, conditioning, reflexes. This is how I learned my traditional stuff, and that’s how I teach it.
Ralek’s talk is fine for the MMA ring, but outside it things are DIFFERENT. He’d FIND OUT against someone like ME.
On the other hand, jon, you’ll understand that when one has to fight then he HAS TO fight.
HuangKaiVun. I don’t think you understand. There is a reason why san shou uses the techniques of muay thai and wrestling. There is a reason that it doesn’t use kung fu.
If it works in the MMA cage then it will work in the street. Different MMA tournaments have different rules. Some MMA tournments in brazil have no rules and youa re allowed to bite and eyegouge. The only think that keeps it from being a streetfight is the fact that it’s not on “a street”.
Kung fu has failed. It never worked. And now with the advent of san shou, kung fu has truly died and muay thai, wrestling, TKD have taken over the chinese martial arts.
There is a reason why san shou uses the techniques of muay thai and wrestling.
Ralek, why do you think they’re using Muay Thai? In TKD we have a kicking surface called Jong Kwaeng i that is used in close range front snap kicks and roundhouse kicks. You know it better as the shin. We also use roundhouse knees, thrusting knees, elbows and just about any technique that Muay Thai has. But it’s not muay thai. Just because I use techniques that are shared between my style and another doesn’t mean that I’m doing the other style. So just because a San Shou guy is does something that looks like muay thai doesn’t mean that he’s using muay thai.
Ok cutting through all of the idiot raleks troll atempt for the time being i think that to be good at fighting you need to not only train to fight but to fight as well. Now this can be street fighting…after lots of street fights you will be good at street fighting or in a boxing ring with boxing golves on…after a lot of this your going to be good at boxing.
The teacher of my teacher (our last link back to hong kong) was a regular fighter and i have heard many storys about his challange matches with other styles of martial arts as well as street fighters. He put his Tai Chi to good regular use as a debt collector (if an independent friend from hong kong is correct) fighting and ofton not being a nice guy!!! I think that is why our style of Tai Chi still holds its fighting back ground.
ok back to ralek
I got to say that BJJ is crap for street fighting!!!
Any art that asks you to fall to the floor with your oponent is going to get you a good beating when you inevitably find your oponents friend kicking you in the head as you go for an arm bar.
Ok ok BJJ is not just about ground fighting but then maybe boxers would do ok with out punching or TKD would do great with out flash kicks!!!
Ok BJJ works in the octogon but you go up against 2 guys and you want sudenly to be able to fight at a distance…same goes for a knife
Above all MMA and san shou and BJJ are sport not street self defense!!!
LOL…there has plenty of instances where two guys get into a fight and one guy takes the other down and pounds the hell out of a guy to death or KO( Hockey dad fights for ex ). BJJ is about taking someone out of his element and putting him into yours…go to www.streetbrawl.com and u can see numerous displays of real fights that have hit the ground! To say that u can remain standing to fight is laughable especially if u’re up against a stronger person.
Any art that asks you to fall to the floor with your oponent is going to get you a good beating when you inevitably find your oponents friend kicking you in the head as you go for an arm bar.
What happens when you are unwillingly taken to the ground? Don’t you want to know how to efficiently get back up? also, using an armbar is no different than a cma using chin na - it doesn’t take much to snap an arm. Remember, for real you aren’t trying to make someone tap. you don’t stay on the ground and look for the armbar either, but if the opportunity presents itself, snap the arm and move on.
Ok ok BJJ is not just about ground fighting but then maybe boxers would do ok with out punching or TKD would do great with out flash kicks!!!
actually, many bjj classes do self defense drills and may also have some form of stand up training, like judo.
Ok BJJ works in the octogon but you go up against 2 guys and you want sudenly to be able to fight at a distance…same goes for a knife
If someone has a knife and we are on the ground, he movement is limited and easier to control. Of course I don’t want to go to the ground, as I’d rather run away, but hope isn’t lost if you end up on the ground
Above all MMA and san shou and BJJ are sport not street self defense!!!
[b]in the street, my money would on the avg sport fighter as opposed to the avg tma. sport training in general is usually more aggressive and has a smaller learning curve. you can become proficient fairly quickly. also, have you noticed that sport fighting seems to attract people that like to work out and train hard? Of course there are many tma that train hard as crap, but from my experience, the avg tma doesn’t train anywhere near as hard as the avg. sport fighter, as the sport fighter is training to compete. he has more at stake in the short term than someone who doesn’t compete.
Back when people trained by really fighting each other, there weren’t guns and fights were generally deadly.
Now, I might be attacked. Somebody could try to rape me. It’s always a possibility. That probably won’t happen, knock on wood.
The guys in the class haven’t seen a real fight since they were young and full of…ahem…anyhoo.
I work-out anyway. The showy kicks are lots of fun and that makes me go back to the kwoon where I also learn how to throw a solid punch. And maybe, because of sparring, I’ll be better able to keep my head were I actually attacked.
When people say that their art is the deadliest or the purest or the most hard core I always have to wonder…“What kind of apocalyptic society, bereft of technology, are you living in that you need to know the deadliest martial art in the world? I mean, if bar brawls are that big a concern for you, you might want to find some new bars.”
SevenStar = If the street situation you are talking about is a sportfighter VS. a TMA, then bet on the sportfighter (of course there are exceptions). But if the street situation is between a martial artist and any other type of assailant, bet on the TMA guy. I mean, if you box, does that mean you can handle a man with a knife? A sportfighter may do ZERO situational awareness (I know I don’t do any). The fact is, TMA is directed towards a greater variety of situations.
Or when you think about it, the best self-defense arts are aimed towards that, maybe something like Aikido or Hapkido. And the arts that are for the battlefields are for the battlefield, and some arts probably mean to muscle your way around the village and take part in brawls. Some arose out of clan wars. Some were founded on philosophical principles, then morphed into effective fighting arts.
sure the TMA does more situational stuff BUT how intensely and how well is it ingrained? how hard does he work at it? is he at a school where the drills are realistic? what level of contact do they use? If contact is soft do they ever go hard? If it’s a tma that trains hard and realistically, I’m all for it. if it’s one that does not, my money is still on the sport fighter - or the tma that WD mentioned.
