[QUOTE=Edmund;820578]A little rotating is fine.
The problem is that the more you rotate your body one direction, the less easy it is to follow up with the other hand. You’re going to have a monster 1st punch and then you have to turn back.[/QUOTE]
The rotation from the first punch loads the follow up punch for maximum power. Tyson was a master of this in his prime.
From a biomechanical standpoint it is rather simple. To impart force to an external object you move in a limited number of vectors. You can move forward or back on the X axis…stepping in or stepping back. You can move up or down on the Y axis…dropping your weight or pushing up with the legs. Or you can move in a rotary fashion around the Y axis…torquing, pivoting, or rotating. The more of these vectors you can incorporate into a strike the more power it will have. For example…stepping in as you pivot and drop your weight is more powerful than standing in place and only pivoting.
The human body doesn’t really move in a “linear” fashion.
Its all rotation and pivoting of some sort.
Look at the most powerful punches, they are rotational in nature, even fajing is circular, just look at chen silk reeling power, its all rotational.
Look at a sprinter for example, and even a powerlifing movement, if you follow the whole axis of movement, is not a linear one.
The body generates power at its best when it is rotational.
Round kick VS front kick for example.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;820572]Just to share
while i was researching power generation of Yik Kam lineage years ago with the help of my kungfu brother sifu Robert Chu. I found out.
with todays physics both newtonian and quantuum, we could formulate the whole power generation with three keys components to identify different power generation dna type
namely
1, power source , ie where the power/energy originate from (muscle, shoulder, hip, .. localized, integrated)
2, momentum booster/attennuator , ie rotation movement
3, acceletor/deceletor , ie wrist snaping
also
the expression of the power could be classified as one directional, two directional to 6 diectional.
with one direction the easiest to generate but also easy to be neutralized to 6 direction which is difficult to manfest but difficult to neutralized or deflect
just some thoughts[/QUOTE]
I could be wrong but the way I understand body mechanics and how I have researched a few martial arts energy originates from the ground or the pushing off of the ground. (well not 100% but its part of it). Momentum is fine and important , but you could push someone using basic body mechanics and no momentum or speed. That was the demonstration of the “1 inch “ punch, body mechanics.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;820574]1, you need to ask monkey to explain to you. since if i recall WCK is an human art 
joking
2, observe instead of think, Aware instead of reason
could you please share what is power generation to you and what is the process of generating this power?[/QUOTE]
Observing is the first step, thinking is the second. Unless you get some divine inspiration how can you become aware without reason? I like to use the basic scientific process I learned back in grade school it works great. Personally that method was how I was taught to use Wing Chun. Why use anything else?
[QUOTE=Edmund;820578]A little rotating is fine.
The problem is that the more you rotate your body one direction, the less easy it is to follow up with the other hand. You’re going to have a monster 1st punch and then you have to turn back.
It’s all great for sports where there’s time to get the body into a ready-to-rotate position. You look in tennis when they get to the net though. When they have to be ready to quickly hit from either side they’re a lot squarer and they don’t take a big swing and follow through.[/QUOTE]
thats true like anything in life you have trade offs. Thats why so many martial arts have techniques that vary. Its about timing and distance. You can’t say a fast weak hit is best all the time, or a slow strong hit. Its all relative…
[QUOTE=Hendrik;820579]thanks. that is a great power generation dna type. however, is that applicable for wck application?
so, imho, if i may use my model to analyze, where is the power source, the momentum boosting, and the acceleration? how many direction manifestation?
i ask these questions because we sometimes mistake power source with momentum boosting or acceleration…
in classical chinese power generation paradigm the power source could be muscular or /and body weight, and at advance level qi flow got integrate in. there is where the newtonian physics fail to explain but quantuum physics could. and imho, with a clear picture in the power generatuon will help one to handle power generation better.
and also know what type of power signature fit into what type of art/application. ie what type of power generation dna WCK’s core Slt is developing and who is the mother of this power signature/dna. shaolin?taiji?emai? white crane of fujian? and what is the uniqueness?
to be basic and simple, let examine between 'dead lifting and squat lifting. anyone care to share what you see if you use my model to classified them?
peace[/QUOTE]
I don’t really know anything about qi flow and mother power signature/dna. I really can’t keep up with a conversation on Newtonian physics and quantum physics.. sorry. I guess my education isn’t high enough.. i hated science anyway in school(English too).
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;820594]The human body doesn’t really move in a “linear” fashion.
Its all rotation and pivoting of some sort.
Look at the most powerful punches, they are rotational in nature, even fajing is circular, just look at chen silk reeling power, its all rotational.
Look at a sprinter for example, and even a powerlifing movement, if you follow the whole axis of movement, is not a linear one.
The body generates power at its best when it is rotational.
Round kick VS front kick for example.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t say doesn’t move in a linear fashion, but there are many ways to move. Rotating is a very powerful method. I wouldn’t count out the push kick, I have personally been kick by someone would felt like a mack truck hitting me. Its all about setup, timing, and follow up (distance too). A quick jab has its place and a strong powerful jab also does. So does a cross and a back fist. Wing Chun has all these variations on techniques. We have a “round” kick too. I am not saying ours is better or worse its unique to our style. I personally think that MT’s round kick is probably the most powerful kick you will find.. yet I would never use it. Its doesn’t fit me. I am not stating any opinion on impact power, only looking to spur conversation about other aspects of Wing Chun not normally talked about.
Got to give the people what they want!!!
We all talked about wing chun power and even fancy it up when talking about it… One, who just started training in this wonderful system, will never understand what the h*ll is going on; wing chun power, wing chun clips, get it???
I’ve seen all kinds of clip’s on this thread but none of them with a wing chun demonstrations on them, just has I said earlier we only turn when bridge contact is made… But until then, you are only as good as your stance; true power comes for the floor…
Here s a master within my wing chun family system, (“Leung Sheung”), ‘Yip Man’s first Hong Kong student ‘Master Fung’… This is what I’m taught and drilled to do for generating power… Stance, stance, stance, your stance!!!
“You are only as good as your stance” ‘Master Woo’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iUx2SCIqhc
Ali Rahim.
From my perspective:
The basis for WCK power is the YJKYM, which is not a “stance” (your feet can be in all kinds of positions and you can still be using YJKYM) but a way of using the body to generate power. That mechanism is incorporated into everything we do, and it could be said that everything else is but a variation on that theme. That mechanic is extremely powerful and solid when developed. And it makes a lot of sense if you view WCK as an attached (contact) fighting method. The task determines the mechanics.
When we turn, we are using that same mechanic that we use when stationary only adapted for turning, turning the YJKYM – and it is the same when we step: we are using YJKYM while stepping/moving. All the “footwork” is YJKYM, stationary or moving. So it is not a rotational power like boxing or baseball uses – which is great for what they are doing (the task determines the mechanics).
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;820622]From my perspective:
The basis for WCK power is the YJKYM, which is not a “stance” (your feet can be in all kinds of positions and you can still be using YJKYM) but a way of using the body to generate power. That mechanism is incorporated into everything we do, and it could be said that everything else is but a variation on that theme. That mechanic is extremely powerful and solid when developed. And it makes a lot of sense if you view WCK as an attached (contact) fighting method. The task determines the mechanics.
When we turn, we are using that same mechanic that we use when stationary only adapted for turning, turning the YJKYM – and it is the same when we step: we are using YJKYM while stepping/moving. All the “footwork” is YJKYM, stationary or moving. So it is not a rotational power like boxing or baseball uses – which is great for what they are doing (the task determines the mechanics).[/QUOTE]
Wow you sure are reading a lot into a static, funny looking, old world, non-fighting, non-moving, dead, form… LOL! 
[QUOTE=Ali. R;820620]We all talked about wing chun power and even fancy it up when talking about it… One, who just started training in this wonderful system, will never understand what the h*ll is going on; wing chun power, wing chun clips, get it???
I’ve seen all kinds of clip’s on this thread but none of them with a wing chun demonstrations on them, just has I said earlier we only turn when bridge contact is made… But until then, you are only as good as your stance; true power comes for the floor…
Here s a master within my wing chun family system, (“Leung Sheung”), ‘Yip Man’s first Hong Kong student ‘Master Fung’… This is what I’m taught and drilled to do for generating power… Stance, stance, stance, your stance!!!
“You are only as good as your stance” ‘Master Woo’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iUx2SCIqhc
Ali Rahim.[/QUOTE]
stance is great and you could have a “structure” like a wall.. but thats not going to help in every situation. in order to get hurt by a wall you must walk into it. Walls do not move. In my opinion all of the fight revolves around not bridging and a longer distance. This is call by some as “long bridge”. Bridging in a fight (my personal experience) is only for a second becouse people are moving. Nobody stands and tries to “stick” to you. its like thinking playing a video car game is the same as driving a real car.
we arent actually turning away from our attack lines doing chum kil but facing them to deliver the unified alignment from rear leg force into ground + solid structured stance+ elbow in strikes = focused point of punch …oh yeah and lots of seung ma -tpi ma drills so you can actually use it in motion to an attacking body…and breath 2 ,3 ,4 …
chum kil is for pointing the line and not letting the others line point at you…the genration of force is from the short fast muscle twitch of the quadriceps and core alignment to allow that force to be delivered to a fist trying to also deliver an idea tacticly while fighting…short steps in close , kicks or long steps to make continous pressure using hips driven behind the kicks and the same heel down idea to add force..Ibve kicked a few ninja’s in my time , a good kick willlft a guy off his feet like a bowling ball hitting a pin squarely …the force is a line like the punch , the unity of the two heels as the unity of the heel fist…one kick is all it takes …most of the time 
sometimes you have to kick the ninja in the head as he tries to hurt the vessel that houses your soul…[sorry dale] and breath 4,5,6…
chum kil to point the slt there is no force against force in parries / deflectng strkes , but you need the ch-sao to develop the integrity of the whole under pressure of real forces testing it , perfecting it…
nobody will feel the leg force genrated , many try to explain it as chi… and enroll you in a weekend " plane dragging by nutsak" weekend at JFK .
even students of several years need coaching to make them confident they are using the body as a whole not just the arms . a small women can generate a good fight from nothing in a surprise encounter doing this … explosive response with unified delivery to an unsuspecting ninja. 'then “leg it” like paul vunak shows in his videos
[QUOTE=monji112000;820625]In my opinion all of the fight revolves around not bridging and a longer distance. This is call by some as “long bridge”. Bridging in a fight (my personal experience) is only for a second becouse people are moving. Nobody stands and tries to “stick” to you. its like thinking playing a video car game is the same as driving a real car.[/QUOTE]
While I agree WCK has long bridge IMO it is a close range ‘connected’ method or emphasis.
Oh and we don’t seek to stick…
It’s just a range–close range or CQC, and therefore often ‘connected’…
[QUOTE=YungChun;820631]While I agree WCK has long bridge IMO it is a close range ‘connected’ method or emphasis.
Oh and we don’t seek to stick…
It’s just a range–close range or CQC, and therefore often ‘connected’…[/QUOTE]
I believe this is based on personal choice, some fighters focused on more longer range and others focused on short “CQC”. My experience pushes me to believe and fight a specific way, that doesn’t mean other people can’t come up with a completely different “expression”. The closer you are the faster pace you must move. The distance forces you to apply things slightly different. I can’t throw a jab cross if the distance isn’t right.. or a push kick. I can elbow and knee ect.. Distance also changes strategy, fighting in the inside or outside relates to distance also.
again to use a medium everyone can relate too, just look at all the boxers. You see so many different type of boxers, yet they use basically the same ideas. If I am too far away from someone they must come to me to attack me. In self-defense I believe this is the best scenario. No matter what the person does it becomes very obvious his intentions. If I am the aggressor this isn’t optimal.. but I don’t believe in being the aggressor in SD.
[QUOTE=YungChun;820624]Wow you sure are reading a lot into a static, funny looking, old world, non-fighting, non-moving, dead, form… LOL! ;)[/QUOTE]
I am not reading anything into any form. I’m not talking about forms. I’m talking about dynamic, adaptive actions. When you put things into forms, you kill them.
[QUOTE=YungChun;820631]While I agree WCK has long bridge IMO it is a close range ‘connected’ method or emphasis.
Oh and we don’t seek to stick…
It’s just a range–close range or CQC, and therefore often ‘connected’…[/QUOTE]
If you are “in range”, close enough to hit or be hit, and you don’t control your opponent – which requires contact, an attachment – you will end up trading.
[QUOTE=monji112000;820641]
If I am too far away from someone they must come to me to attack me. In self-defense I believe this is the best scenario.[/QUOTE]
No matter the range one prefers to fight in this is true..
[QUOTE=monji112000;820641]
The closer you are the faster pace you must move.
[/quote]
I would say more economical and positionally accurate vs “faster” although speed is important too. This is a position and structure based system after all emphasizing position, leverage, economy and many other things specifically because of the close range tool set and methods in the system.
[QUOTE=monji112000;820641]
The way you apply things also change slightly.
[/quote]
It changes a lot when you are in close range.. At close range you have many added elements, not the least of which is control, the ability to impart force into the opponent, break his structure and balance, the centerline, core tactics that don’t really work from an outside position. And IME in the street, most of the time real violence doesn’t keep it’s distance..
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;820644]If you are “in range”, close enough to hit or be hit, and you don’t control your opponent – which requires contact, an attachment – you will end up trading.[/QUOTE]
Just like all arts (requires contact, and attachment) , then just fight your fight…
If you fight without contact then, fight without contact… 
But the wing chun system works well using contact…
Take Care,
Ali Rahim.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;820644]If you are “in range”, close enough to hit or be hit, and you don’t control your opponent – which requires contact, an attachment – you will end up trading.[/QUOTE]
I agree that control is a part of the system… Whereby we can control or issue force with one hand/arm and strike with the other.. On the other hand, pardon the pun depending on what they do, one may need to only strike with body power to control, eg blast them down. Well delivered strikes under the right conditions DO CONTROL AND DISPLACE the opponent’s counter attacks.. This is why we attack their core with ours… The stream of water–continuous flow of attack..
Start with your hands down and let me start attacking you.. I guarantee I’ll control you..
I have seen many of Alan’s clips where he is doing just that–controlling via striking, perhaps he will comment.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;820650]LOL… I’m always amazed that people still believe these parlor tricks.[/QUOTE]
They believed you, didnt they? :rolleyes:
Ali Rahim.
[QUOTE=YungChun;820651]I agree that control is a part of the system… Whereby we can control or issue force with one hand/arm and strike with the other.. On the other hand, pardon the pun depending on what they do, one may need to only strike with body power to control, eg blast them down. Well delivered strikes under the right conditions DO CONTROL AND DISPLACE the opponent’s counter attacks..
Keep your hands down and let me start attacking you.. I guarantee I’ll control you..
I have seen many of Alan’s clips where he is doing just that–controlling via striking, perhaps he will comment.[/QUOTE]
Yes, strikes can sometimes act to “control” (in your sense, not mine) an opponent. But IME you can’t count on that. Because if you do, and your strike doesn’t do everything you need it to, you will find yourself trading (eating punches) because you are “in range”. The WCK method is to control while hitting. That control can take many forms depending on what the opponent is doing. For me, I always try to have more than one sort of control at a time (back-up control, for lack of a better term). In that way, if my strike does what I want it to do, great! And if not, I still have control and the safety that comes with it.
I don’t believe this thread. :eek: 
The more body rotation you use - the more power you generate on your punches and kicks.
The more pure linear movement of the body - the less power.
Duh!!! :rolleyes:
But when you’re in very close quarters with the opportunity to land multiple straight line strikes - then completely linear striking with some extra power coming from the legs and hips wedging forward (and done perhaps with just some slight hip/shoulder rotation)…can work very well.
I think they call it wing chun kung fu. Great close quarter striking system.
But when not in very close quarters with the opportunity to strike or kick - then ROTATE.
(Unless of course landing a nice tight close quarter hook or uppercut is there for the taking).
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;820657]Yes, strikes can sometimes act to “control” (in your sense, not mine) an opponent. But IME you can’t count on that. Because if you do, and your strike doesn’t do everything you need it to, you will find yourself trading (eating punches) because you are “in range”. The WCK method is to control while hitting. That control can take many forms depending on what the opponent is doing. For me, I always try to have more than one sort of control at a time (back-up control, for lack of a better term). In that way, if my strike does what I want it to do, great! And if not, I still have control and the safety that comes with it.[/QUOTE]
All I can say is control with whatever you need.. Smaller folks may see things differently, I know 95 of the time I will send my opponent flying away or crashing down to the ground if I am using my body to deliver attacks into his core.. You have to define when something is appropriate or not, and that depends on the person… Again, if his arm/hands are leaving the line, meaning moving away from his core then I want to attack that core not chase his hand(s).. But I agree there are exceptions and again if he is wide open I am going to blow him down and I have the power to do it.