fut ga jeung ( budha palm form )

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

i’m working in budha palm form of choy lay fut and i think is a beautiful and very agressive form . the beginning have the same steps of 8 drunken inmortals form , that steps are called in the book " clf the dinamic art of fighting " as : snake sliding and mause running . anybody knows if this steps have a special place in clf ?
in the end after the crane stance and the jump . there are a fingers technique . is a direct movement . is similar to hung gar’s snake . this one is a snake technique too ?
i’d read that this form is called fut jeung kuen ( the fist of he budha palm ) fut ga jeung is the palm of the budha family ?

i really i 'm in love of the lok quei ma uppercuts . if anybody have the opportunity of learning the form . don’t think twice . is one these forms that become favorite .

2

Hello Rain,

If you have the tapes from the Lee Koon Hung branch then I am the performer along with Master Li Siu Hung. The opening steps do have a symbolic meaning, a sucession of movements rebeling the government. The finger technique, biu jee, also is a snake strike, similar tour our CLF 5 animal form. The form as taught to us was a Jeung Yim form using techniques he learned from Ching Cho war serng (Green Grass Monk). Alot of palm strikes in the form, hence the name Fut Ga Jerng.

If this is our tape, I am glad you enjoyed it. Check our website for other material, and future releases. Soon we will finish production on our wooden dummy tape.

Happy New Year!

Joe Keit

www.leekoonhungkungfu.com

3

i know who you are sow choy . i got all your videos with all the books and poster of grandmaster lee koon hung . you really don’t know how these videos can help to people who lives in countries without chinese masters . i’m waiting for the wooden dummy videotape and the sup gee kow da kuen videotape .
the videos are well explained and are easy to follow . i hope one day travel to your institute and correct my mistakes .
this forum is a great help too .
thank you for all the help and patience .

happy new year to you too

4

Sow Choy,

Your comments about Fut Ga Jerng give a technical confirmation that Ching Cho Wo-Sherng and Choy Fook are one and the same person. All branches of CLF have Fut Ga Jerng or Fut Jerng and the techniques are very similar even though the sequence of movements may varied, so it cannot be passed down by 2 different people. Seeing there is no proof that Ching Cho Wo-Sherng ever existed, I would make the assumption that Chan Heung taught Jeung Yim rather than the other way around.

Imagine you have a brilliant student in the future and you gave him time and effect for years to help him become a great martial artist. When you have passed away, he goes and tell everyone that he did not learn from you but from another source, not only from another source but he taught you some of the things you did not know! How would you feel? How would your family feel? How would his sihingdai feel?

Sow Choy, my anger is not directed at you but directed at the general lack of respect people do to each other.

JosephX

5

Hi Joseph,

Good Point, I would not feel very good being Chan Heung or a member of the lineage if your version is true. But as I was taught, and many others through the Jeung Hung Sing, that was not the case. Also, every master of Hung Sing that I have met, never discredited Chan Heung, only praised him.

And the way I learned our history, Chan Heung was always the sifu of Jeung Yim, like his father. And I believe a father would encourage his son, or sifu encourage his student to be better then he could. My sifu says the same to me. He wants me to be better than he ever was, that would give him great honor and face. I never thought of Jeung Yim as a higher level than Chan Heung, only thought that he was an outstanding student who helped put Choy Lay Fut on the map.

I believe if they were both alive today, they would not understand why our family is fighting over these stories. In my time with CLF I have never heard anything to put Jeung Yim above Chan Heung, and never heard anything bad about Chan Heung or family. But I have heard controversy over Chan Yong Fa, but I will make my own judgements when I meet him.

But I really couldn’t tell you the facts, I don’t have the evidence either way, and really it wouldn’t matter much to me if it were true what you stated or if the version I learned is true. I have seen some other Buddha Palm forms, and they don’t even resemble ours. So I still find it hard to accept that Choy Fook is the Green Grass monk, but you could be right. There is a lot of Buddha in Kung Fu, lol. So it wouldn’t surprise me about Choy Fook and Ching Cho both passing them down.

Please forgive any of my brothers who may offend the Chan family or Chan Heung, I must admit not enjoying reading about Chan family saying our history is a lie. I don’t mind in a friendly conversation, but I hate to see us fight over our bible, know what I mean?

I hope one day some of the different branches of CLF can get together and maybe do a day or so of small seminars to exchange forms and ideas, I think it would be interesting and step in a positive direction.

But your point of view is noted, I would like to see the Buddha Palm of Chan style and compare.

Take care brother,

Joe

6

Joseph X

I know your anger was not directed towards Joe Keit, but I like to reconfirm his good attitude and manner. My father and I teach martial arts out of Chicago, and our branch stems from Chan Koon Pak so I believe our interpretation of Choy Lay Fut history is similar to yours. However, I know Joe Keit well and neither Joe nor anybody in his kung fu family has ever once talked poorly about Chan Heung or tried to promote Cheung Yim as anything more than an excellent student of Chan Heung.

Joe has displayed more martial conduct and courtesy than anyone else (including myself) that I have noticed on this forum.

I think if we all take example from his willingness to be brotherly with everyone in the CLF family (no matter the branch), many of the silly squabbles surrounding the art would quickly cease.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association

7

Joe and Phil,

Thank you for your understangding, I couldn’t agree more that we should meet and share ideas as one big family, I hope this will happen one day soon.

Wude or martial virtue is about respect and courtesy and I thank you two for showing the way.

Peace.

JosephX

8

i wanna give a point of wiew about the differences between choy lay fut branches . and i believe is a point of wiew about all kung fu styles .
i think is good that people have roots . and respect his roots .
but sometimes that search for the only one truth , become so obsesive that rise anger and people take separete ways .
i am not say this for attack chan family or another branch . i only say that spend energy in a wrong way is a mistake .
i say mistake because the way that the branches of clf are separate are a prove that this type of discussion only rise more division .
the authentic truth is in the past and nobody can travel to the past right now . maybe exist no one but a lot of truths .
what is the problem if some people believe that choy fook and green grass monk are the same person and some people not . is like religions , some people believe in budha and some people in christ , but all are humans .
i’m really don’t understand very well the source of the division and angry sometimes between branches and why the controversy still remain . but i wanna tell a oriental story about human nature .
i don’t speak very well english , so take patience with my writing mistakes .

there was sometime , a joker god who wanna mocking people . so , one day he’d make a great hat with one side painted of red and the other side painted of blue . and with his new hat put on he’d walk for a camp of workers . all the workers sow the god and all was very happy . and all say :

  • the god was so powerful !!
  • the god was so beatiful !
  • he was amazing !!
  • and his hat was so red !!! ( this was say for the people in the right side who only was seeing the right side of the hat )
    so the other people who only was seeing the left side of the hat wityh angry said :
  • no !! his hat was blue !!
    _ no was red ( say the others )
    _ no blue !! ( say again the people of the left side )
    this discussion start to grow and the rigth side people make a wall . and the left side people make the same . the two groups wanna be separate and become enemys . and a war between the two groups was started .
    so the god walk again between the two groups but this time with the hat in reverse .
    so the left side people said :
  • the others are correct the hat is red .
    and the right side people said :
  • we are wrong , the hat is blue .
    and nobody knows the real truth .
    so , the god walk again between them and show them the two colors hat and he’d laugh of them .

i like very much this story and i think maybe green grass monk and choy fook are laughning of our fighting .

forgive me if i’d make some ofense to the roots of any branch . that not was my intention . i only wanna make a contribution for the union of the branches .

peace .

9

Rain,

Nice story! That sounds like what we have encountered in our history.

Joseph,

Just to let you know, I never took offense to any of your statements, in fact I admire your passion for Choy Lay Fut. I believe there is alot our different branches can learn from each other, no need for jealousy or competition, just a family getting together to have fun, and do what we love most Choy Lay Fut. Keep informing us of your branches history and theory.

Straightblast,

That was really nice what you said. Just to let everyone know, I consider Straightblast my brother and close friend. He is a sifu of CLF and Wing Chun under 2 very accomplished Masters. We got together and taught each other about our styles: forms, theory, etc… The whole time neither of us were jealous or felt uncomfortable, we welcomed hearing each others views with respect, and some of what I learned from him has really helped.

Lee Koon Hung, my 1st sifu of CLF had many teachers and believed he gained alot from each of them. Wasn’t Chan Heung the same? Maybe he was like with his students since he himself followed more than one master. Lee Koon Hung had some of his students train with Chan Pui and other teachers, to give them insight on other styles. I believe alot of teachers did the same in order to better their art.

Joesph, in your research has any student of Chan Heung that you have heard of studied with a diffent teacher? I believe there must be some. Even Tam Sam encouraged his students to do their own research. I have a feeling Chan Heung might have been the same. One thing is certain, he must have been a great Martial Artist!

Well at least we all want together, we just need someone with money and the hook ups to get the ball rolling! Any volunteers?!?

:smiley:

Take care and thank you again for the nice words,

Joe Keit

10

RAIN,

Thank you for the lovely story. Have you seen a movie by the name of “Rashmaon” made by Kurasawa the famous Japenese director? You would love the story.

What I was getting at was not to operate a fixed position based on belief or emotional attachment but to look at the situation from hard evidence like a good detective, then at the end people can form their own opinions.

Translate it to your story, God does not have to walk around Man to show the two colours (yin and yang). Man can also walk around God to see that there are two colours instead of arguing with each other from a fixed position. A wiser Man can also see as he walk around his God that although there are two colours, in essence it is one hat wore by one God.

I admire your determination to learn CLF from video and books. it just goes to show how lucky we are to have easy access to a school and teachers. Like Joe, CLF has changed my life and I like to put something back before I die.

Take Care and I hope the situation in your country will improve soon.

JosephX

11

Joe,

From my research many of the first generation students studied with Chan Heung only because they were clansmen but some (like Jeung Yim who studied Hung Gar with his father) may have came from another style.

The second generation is quite different, they often studied with each others sisuks and even with sibak himself for advanced training. A good example is Yuan Hai, who not only studied with Jeung Yim but also with Loong Ji-Choi.

There is nothing new with studying with more than one teacher, but you always get permission first and we were taught to respect our teachers and always remembers the source of your water when you drink from your fountain of knwledge.

Send your message of working together out into the universe and you will be rewarded. I am certain of that.

12

Joseph,

In our school we were taught that Chan Heung recommended that Jeung Yim follow Ching Cho, so until I started reading these posts, I never knew there were any tensions between the Chan Heung and Jeung Yim lineages. And never really knew of any offenses being made by both sides.

But I couldn’t agree more, you always should respect your sifu like a father. I began studying Chen Tai Chi with another teacher, but first asked my sifu’s permission out of respect. My sifu has nothing but support for my study of Chen Tai Chi.

Thank you for your kind words,

Joe

13

Joseph X,

I am glad you feel the same way. I think we all have a lot to gain from each other.

Joe Keit,

Hey bro! Don’t have to thank me for what I said. I was just telling everyone the truth. I think they’d all agree.

Anyway, a CLF gathering doesn’t have to be that difficult to arrange. My friend, Sifu Benny Meng, have held a few friendship seminars at his Ving Tsun museum where everyone was welcomed to share their views on Wing Chun with peers and masters. I think if we could find the venue and a few masters to participate, the same could be done for CLF! Something to think about.

BTW, our Fut Jerng form is a bit different than yours. I’ll share what I know with you when we next meet. By the way, how was your new year? Mine was CRAZY!!! (I’ll have to tell you about it over the phone…)

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association

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As a often reader of this forum I have to say that Joe Keit is one of the most respectful writers of this forum.
I can understand how my Sisuk Joseph feel about history controversy, but I can understand too that people of others branch have been educated in other version that can´t be changed at that time. Even though, people like Sow Choy refers to others with respect and without insults and that shows good education and with people like this the sharing of knowledge is easy.

Rain.

If you are in Argentina there are two respected brachs there. There is sifu German Bermudez from the Chan family and sifu Di Renzo from the Hung Sing Futshan.

15

thanks for the info . I find the lee koon hung’s forms better for the kung fu i am looking for . For the others choy lay fut branches i sow in videos , even doc fai wong 's hung sing , i ’ d not feel comfortable with his high stances . i am not saying others branches are wrong . i know the atenticity of the rest of the schools .
only for me . the lee koon hung 's choy lay fut is better . but only for me .