[QUOTE=KPM;1263787]I agree with your observation. If Fung Wah was a Leung Jan student why was he not mentioned in IMWC history? If Ip Man studied with Fung Wah and he was a Leung Jan student, then this would have been justification enough for why his Wing Chun changed. There would have been no need to switch his name to Leung Bik. So was there something about Fung Wah later in life that made Ip Man not want to be associated with him? Was Leung Bik a nickname for Fung Wah that was known by enough people that it was just accepted? Did Fung Wah have a reason for asking Ip Man to keep their relationship on the down-low? Very interesting!
If Leung Bik had a daughter as Joy stated, then he very likely has existing family members. Why have they not surfaced or been located? But…if that daughter was actually Fung Wah’s daughter and no one associates their family with Leung Bik, that would explain it.[/QUOTE]
We are definitely on the same page, there’s more to this mystery than what is ‘public’ knowledge. Does anyone have any stories concerning Fung Wah?
Are there other lineages from these Leung Jan Students
n Foshan. His other students consisted mainly of the wealthy owners of local businesses and inclued Leung Kay (Lao Man Kay, Rascal Kay), Leung Wah (Muk Yan Wah, Wooden Man Wah), Lo Kwai (Chu Yuk Kwai, Butcher Kwai, sometimes rendered as Chan Kwai), Fung Wah, and pharmacy employee Ngau Shu (San Dai Shu, Big Mountain Shu),
[QUOTE=KPM;1263787] If Leung Bik had a daughter as Joy stated, then he very likely has existing family members. Why have they not surfaced or been located?
Possibly a chat between posters on a KFO magazine thread does not stir folks in China or other
relevant places or pea nut-pop corn or dim sum galleries in the world.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1263810][QUOTE=KPM;1263787] If Leung Bik had a daughter as Joy stated, then he very likely has existing family members. Why have they not surfaced or been located?
Possibly a chat between posters on a KFO magazine thread does not stir folks in China or other
relevant places or pea nut-pop corn or dim sum galleries in the world.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but people like Sifu Sergio, Leung Ting, and others have actually traveled about asking and searching for such leads. They’ve done a lot more than just have some chats on a discussion board!
[QUOTE=Firehawk4;1263805]n Foshan. His other students consisted mainly of the wealthy owners of local businesses and inclued Leung Kay (Lao Man Kay, Rascal Kay), Leung Wah (Muk Yan Wah, Wooden Man Wah), Lo Kwai (Chu Yuk Kwai, Butcher Kwai, sometimes rendered as Chan Kwai), Fung Wah, and pharmacy employee Ngau Shu (San Dai Shu, Big Mountain Shu),[/QUOTE]
in the list of Leung Jan students it occurs to me that there are 3 other students besides Leung Bik that have the surname of “Leung.” Coincidence? Relatives? Or is it possible these were nicknames in the same tradition that we see with Moy Yat disciples where many of them were given a “Moy” Chinese name?
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1263810][QUOTE=KPM;1263787] If Leung Bik had a daughter as Joy stated, then he very likely has existing family members. Why have they not surfaced or been located?
Possibly a chat between posters on a KFO magazine thread does not stir folks in China or other
relevant places or pea nut-pop corn or dim sum galleries in the world.[/QUOTE]
What’s the matter Joy, gotta poop? C’mon man it’s just a discussion on a forum no need to be all sarcastic. For once everyone is getting along well and having a nice conversation about the history and ancestry of WC. Or would you rather we all go back to arguing about insignificant details on the proper application of Chi Sao?
[QUOTE=KPM;1263813]in the list of Leung Jan students it occurs to me that there are 3 other students besides Leung Bik that have the surname of “Leung.” Coincidence? Relatives? Or is it possible these were nicknames in the same tradition that we see with Moy Yat disciples where many of them were given a “Moy” Chinese name?[/QUOTE]
This is part of the problem of historical martial arts research. The Chinese penchant for nicknames and adoptive names. Moy Yat was just being traditional by giving his disciples a “Moy” family name. “Sifu” means father. In tradition when you became an apprentice and accepted to learn a skill be it brick layer or martial arts you would receive an adoptive name from your “father”. Then you also had names that reflected your occupation such as “Money Changer” or “Butcher”. People often became known more by their nicknames or adoptive name than by their original family name.
[QUOTE=hunt1;1263815]This is part of the problem of historical martial arts research. The Chinese penchant for nicknames and adoptive names. Moy Yat was just being traditional by giving his disciples a “Moy” family name. “Sifu” means father. In tradition when you became an apprentice and accepted to learn a skill be it brick layer or martial arts you would receive an adoptive name from your “father”. Then you also had names that reflected your occupation such as “Money Changer” or “Butcher”. People often became known more by their nicknames or adoptive name than by their original family name.[/QUOTE]
Not just in China. In some other parts of the world as well… nicknames becoming names, occupations becoming names, villages becoming names etc.
In my case my family lineage list exists in a chain of persons and names for over 1500 years…but Chaudhuri was a title— the real family name is used in rituals related to birth, marriage, death etc
One has to be careful in even interpreting calligraphy. An example of interpretation in translation creating problems..
Bodhidharma crossing the Yangtze river on a reed or a boat made out of reeds— which are still seen in some crossings.
There is more to scholarship and accuracy than knowing a language, reading or carrying a camera or chatting on a forum.
Then there is the old problem of proof by authority.
[QUOTE=hunt1;1263815]This is part of the problem of historical martial arts research. The Chinese penchant for nicknames and adoptive names. Moy Yat was just being traditional by giving his disciples a “Moy” family name. “Sifu” means father. In tradition when you became an apprentice and accepted to learn a skill be it brick layer or martial arts you would receive an adoptive name from your “father”. Then you also had names that reflected your occupation such as “Money Changer” or “Butcher”. People often became known more by their nicknames or adoptive name than by their original family name.[/QUOTE]
This makes sense in relevance to the story I heard about Fung Wah being an “adopted” son of Leung Jan.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1263817]—
There is more to scholarship and accuracy than knowing a language, reading or carrying a camera or chatting on a forum.
.[/QUOTE]
Or seeing a few youtube clips or spending an hour or so with someone demo’ing their style! ;)
Not just in China. In some other parts of the world as well… nicknames becoming names, occupations becoming names, villages becoming names etc.
In my case my family lineage list exists in a chain of persons and names for over 1500 years…but Chaudhuri was a title— the real family name is used in rituals related to birth, marriage, death etc
One has to be careful in even interpreting calligraphy. An example of interpretation in translation creating problems..
Bodhidharma crossing the Yangtze river on a reed or a boat made out of reeds— which are still seen in some crossings.
There is more to scholarship and accuracy than knowing a language, reading or carrying a camera or chatting on a forum.
Then there is the old problem of proof by authority.[/QUOTE]
This is absolutely correct, much can be lost in translation. But all the oral legends, much like mythology, contain a kernel of truth. Deciding on what this truth is in relation to the cultural, social norms and traditions of various ethnic groups is very difficult. In the end all we have are stories and educated guesses based upon the clues left behind. Any research is a two way street, one cannot outright dismiss anothers legends while clinging to theirs as religious dogma and expect mutual acceptance.
I think Master Yip lied to his close associates about training with Master Leung Bik just to mess with the minds of Westerners who would venture forth into Fatsan years after they were allowed to visit China off the beaten path to ask loaded questions of the local residents about the TCMA background of his esteemed popular training regimen that catapulted from his teacher/student relationship with one spry Hong kong/Hollywood film star of the not-too-distant future.
Lee Man (Yip Man’s Friend) Made up the story of Yip Learning From Leung bik in Hong Kong to create more interest in the system. Due to the fact Leung Jan was already a well known Hero and kung fu fighter, they tried to Link Yip Man Directly to Dr. Leung Jan.
Similar to how so many people tried to ride on Bruce Lee’s coattails after he died
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1263886]Lee Man (Yip Man’s Friend) Made up the story of Yip Learning From Leung bik in Hong Kong to create more interest in the system. Due to the fact Leung Jan was already a well known Hero and kung fu fighter, they tried to Link Yip Man Directly to Dr. Leung Jan.
Similar to how so many people tried to ride on Bruce Lee’s coattails after he died[/QUOTE]
Coulda been Lee Man taught Ip Man but Ip Man kept him in the background..after all some people still offer incense at Lee man’s grave.
One thing seems to be certain, IMHO, and that is: Master Ip Chun is the son of GreatMaster Yip Man. He looks just like him. I find this vid to be meditationally so. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3SGBZ3x2vM
