Interesting take on Taoist’s Influence on the Chinese martial Arts:
[QUOTE=Minghequan;1145463]Well I just thought that one such as Hendrik would avail you all of his translation … How about it Hendrik? Any chance of a translation of what each section of hanzi says?[/QUOTE]
Thanks no thanks. You deal with your own post.
[QUOTE=Minghequan;1145464]Hmmm so your saying that you are far more knowledgeable than those who wrote the book this came from? Interesting. Please explain why you feel your knowledge base is of a higher level than that of the author?
Cool then please enlighten us all and tell us what that “most key fundamental core” is that is missing? I am sure we would all like to know exactly what it is … so please, do share! Come on now, don’t be shy![/QUOTE]
Go home, do your homework. See if it work for yourself and then post it. Otherwise, posting something which is not verified is problem isn’t it?
You want to be an expert? Be a real one. What good to know not the subject ?
Hendrik:
Thanks no thanks. You deal with your own post.
As per your usual modus operandi you post on here saying a little about nothing.
You refuse to explain your views (Most likely because you can’t) or to state your sources or reasons for the ambiguous statements you make.
You like to “appear” all “knowledgeable”, “mysteriously wise” and “cryptic” but when called upon to share your “knowledge” you clam up tighter then a Nun’s nether regions!
Why is that?
I put it to you Hendrik that perhaps you don’t know what you “think” you “know!”
Otherwise, why would you not share openly with others? After all last time I looked this was a DISCUSSION FORUM for "Discussing (i.e. communicating, sharing, offering ideas & personal views) the martial arts!
Hendrik:
Go home, do your homework. See if it work for yourself and then post it. Otherwise, posting something which is not verified is problem isn’t it?
You want to be an expert? Be a real one. What good to know not the subject ?
You see? You prove my point straight away in the very few lines of your post!
How terribly condescending (look it up) of you to tell another, someone you have never met or trained with to “go home” or “do homework”. How great it must be to be you with all your self-imposed “Expert Status” and Self-Awarded Superiority!"
Your attitude is not very open nor is it conducive to discussion and sharing. Mate, empty your cup because right now it’s overflowing all over your keyboard!
Ten Tigers,
Hi mate. My apologies for allowing this subject to be derailed by the “showboating” of another. Moving on,
I will publish a translation of both charts very soon for you and I to discuss.
The source of these charts is from “White Crane Boxing and Theory of Health”
by Wang Yu Ning Publisher: Yi Wen (ancient writings no longer extant) 2006/12/06.
The book itself is an examination on the nuts and bolts of White Crane from the mechanical and health standpoints. It discusses, in detail, the structure of the system from both the physiological standpoint and with correspondences to the Chinese medical theory.
It also goes on to detail descriptions of the various styles and their advantages, five elements theory White Crane style, special breathing arts, White Crane spirit and suggestions for further research.
The first chart shown ““ – “Chart One: The Concept in the Chinese School of Daoism (Religion) of the Three-in-One Human Body of ‘Form, Qi, and Spirit’” is basically a flow chart of the synthesis of traditional Chinese philosophical ideas, non-classical religious Daoism, and modern scientific concepts.
The second chart deals with The body philosophy of the White Crane Fist listing the : The philosophy of the White Crane Fist movements.
Ten Tigers, What is your interest in White Crane Gongfu if I may ask?
[QUOTE=Minghequan;1145477]
Ten Tigers, What is your interest in White Crane Gongfu if I may ask?[/QUOTE]
Our Crane in Hung Kuen comes from two sources-Fukien Bak Hok P’ai, and Hop Ga-Tibetan White Crane.
Also, since I also train in SPM, a Hakka Kuen system, (as well as learning some Bak Mei in my youth as well as Wing Chun) there is a strong connection to Fukien Bak Hok P’ai. By studying Bak Hok, I can delve deeper into the system and gain greater understanding of the crane in my system than I would normally get otherwise.
Ten Tigers:
Our Crane in Hung Kuen comes from two sources-Fukien Bak Hok P’ai, and Hop Ga-Tibetan White Crane.
Also, since I also train in SPM, a Hakka Kuen system, (as well as learning some Bak Mei in my youth as well as Wing Chun) there is a strong connection to Fukien Bak Hok P’ai. By studying Bak Hok, I can delve deeper into the system and gain greater understanding of the crane in my system than I would normally get otherwise.
Okay, thanks for sharing. It’s interesting to note the mix of Fukien Crane and Tibetan Crane in your Hung Kuen … one a medium to short range, the other long range.
I have a very good friend who does Hung Kuen and we communicate openly about the connections between Hung Kuen and Crane of Fuzhou, YongChun etc.
Mate I am happy to share with you what I can regarding White Crane if it will be of some small help to you in your quest for understanding. Please note that I’m no “expert” (“X” being an unknown factor & “spurt” being a drip under pressure!), I’m just a seeker of the way.
Here’s a link to Master Lee Kong, a guide and friend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwO0WQ8yeK4&feature=feedu
I’d be interested in your thoughts?
Thanks for the discussion!
at 0:52 he does what we call mao yi sai meen (cat washes its face)into double side palm/claw strikes both sides. Nearly identical sequence in our Tiger/Crane set.
Interesting! Thank you for sharing. I feel that at some point, all arts become “one” if not in style, in essence.
I will post more soon!
The first chart shown ““ – “Chart One: The Concept in the Chinese School of Daoism (Religion) of the Three-in-One Human Body of ‘Form, Qi, and Spirit’” is basically a flow chart of the synthesis of traditional Chinese philosophical ideas, non-classical religious Daoism, and modern scientific concepts.
this is misleading.
the author doesnt have indepth understanding and certainly not practice the subject.
what to discuss? when the basic keys are distorted.
The second chart deals with The body philosophy of the White Crane Fist listing the : The philosophy of the White Crane Fist movements.
This one missing the most basic white crane element. this tell the person who wrote the book is a talker who is not practicing White Crane seriously. at least, he is not practicing a martial art White Crane which is according to the founder and cannot be applied in today’s MMA. not to mention 1670’s Qing battle field.
Ron,
If your research are at these level, then it is just new age superficial and useless. you need to find some real guys with real deal for your organization to get the basic first.
Hendrik,
You place yourself “Above” an actual exponent of White Crane Gongfu and exclaim that this person knows nothing of the art he has dedicated his life too? Good God man, your ego and self-superiority complex is clearly out of control!
!/. Please inform us all exactly how many actual White Crane Training Manuals you have actually written and had published?
2/. Who exactly did you train with that actually taught you White Crane?
3/. How many years did you physically practice and learn White Crane Gongfu?
I ask this simply because it will serve to educate us all exactly where it is you are coming from with your statements as made here.
Hendrik, please answer these very simple and very easy questions. They are not hard to answer nor are they a “putdown” to you. Answering each of the very simple yet straight forward questions will enable all of us here to know exactly where it is you are basing your statements in and will serve to help us understand your training, knowledge and training in White Crane Gongfu.
I, along with the others here await your reply.
[QUOTE=Minghequan;1145509]Hendrik,
You place yourself “Above” an actual exponent of White Crane Gongfu and exclaim that this person knows nothing of the art he has dedicated his life too? Good God man, your ego and self-superiority complex is clearly out of control!
!/. Please inform us all exactly how many actual White Crane Training Manuals you have actually written and had published?
2/. Who exactly did you train with that actually taught you White Crane?
3/. How many years did you physically practice and learn White Crane Gongfu?
I ask this simply because it will serve to educate us all exactly where it is you are coming from with your statements as made here.
Hendrik, please answer these very simple and very easy questions. They are not hard to answer nor are they a “putdown” to you. Answering each of the very simple yet straight forward questions will enable all of us here to know exactly where it is you are basing your statements in and will serve to help us understand your training, knowledge and training in White Crane Gongfu.
I, along with the others here await your reply.[/QUOTE]
Can you differentiate between technical and side tracking the subject for personal attack?
Who cares what is the name dropping. It doesnt matter who the heck wrote the book. if he doesnt know he doesnt. evidentally, this person does not have the in depth understanding to write what he is writting. so, either you take that or you could keep raising all kind of wasted personal attack and looks ridiculus in the eyes of those who really knows what is going on.
again, I repeat this author is not a daoist and have never train any indepth Daoist stuffs. This person also doesnt have advance level in White Crane Eng Chun art. any one who has basic training in Daoist and White CRane knows what components are distorted and missing.
Get it to your advisor GM Lee Kong and let him tell you what is missing.
Ron,
If your research are at these level, then it is just new age superficial and useless. you need to find some real guys with real deal for your organization to get the basic first.
Good grief!!! :eek: I don’t believe it!
You actually have the audacity to write that the likes of my friend and Guide Master Lee Kong (WCRI Technical Advisor/Master) of the Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tan Jian Pai White Crane Boxing & Master Su YingHan of theYongChun YiYun Wushu Research Society, China are not as you put it “REAL GUYS!” or the “REAL DEAL!”???
Man you are just downright rude and obnoxious!
Have you met Shifu Chen Fai, Master Lee Kong, Master Su YingHan? Have YOU ever trained with these guys?
Who have you actually trained with in White Crane? Who are the “REAL GUYS”, the “REAL DEAL:” you have trained with in White Crane Gongfu to arrive at your opinion as expressed here???
you need to find some real guys with real deal for your organization to get the basic first.
Don’t evade the question Hendrik! Lets hear exactly WHO HAVE YOU HAVE TRAINED WITH IN WHITE CRANE GONGFU???
Do you know me? Have we ever met? Have you ever trained with me or witnessed my training and White Crane Gongfu? Do you know me to know who I have trained with? Who I have turned to for my research and continual learning?
Of course you don’t! But then a man who thinks he has arrived and knows all there is is not likely to admit that he hasn’t really “arrived” and doesn’t “know all” now is he Hendrik?
Do you know anything of the way I teach, what I teach?
Okay Hendrik, Please tell me why you would be one of the people I should turn to for knowledge of White Crane Gongfu?
[QUOTE=Minghequan;1145511]Good grief!!! :eek: I don’t believe it!
You actually have the audacity to write that the likes of my friend and Guide Master Lee Kong (WCRI Technical Advisor/Master) of the Zhangzhou Jie Yuan Tan Jian Pai White Crane Boxing & Master Su YingHan of theYongChun YiYun Wushu Research Society, China are not as you put it “REAL GUYS!” or the “REAL DEAL!”???
Man you are just downright rude and obnoxious!
Have you met Shifu Chen Fai, Master Lee Kong, Master Su YingHan? Have YOU ever trained with these guys?
Who have you actually trained with in White Crane? Who are the “REAL GUYS”, the “REAL DEAL:” you have trained with in White Crane Gongfu to arrive at your opinion as expressed here???
Don’t evade the question Hendrik! Lets hear exactly WHO HAVE YOU HAVE TRAINED WITH IN WHITE CRANE GONGFU???
Do you know me? Have we ever met? Have you ever trained with me or witnessed my training and White Crane Gongfu? Do you know me to know who I have trained with? Who I have turned to for my research and continual learning?
Of course you don’t! But then a man who thinks he has arrived and knows all there is is not likely to admit that he hasn’t really “arrived” and doesn’t “know all” now is he Hendrik?
Do you know anything of the way I teach, what I teach?
Okay Hendrik, Please tell me why you would be one of the people I should turn to for knowledge of White Crane Gongfu?[/QUOTE]
You are name dropping here. Do you really get the advise from Su Ying Han or Lee Kong? I doubt. I know these two master’s quality, so I doubt you take their advise.
the following of your picture and translation is distorted and screw up— not accord to white crane.
if Su or Lee has involved it would not be like this. If you dont even know what is screw up here, go ask Su or Lee. Said it Hendrik said this picture and the englished translation is screw up. I bet you they will agree with me.
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1127556&postcount=11
Can you differentiate between technical and side tracking the subject for personal attack?
Who cares what is the name dropping. It doesnt matter who the heck wrote the book. if he doesnt know he doesnt. evidentally, this person does not have the in depth understanding to write what he is writting. so, either you take that or you could keep raising all kind of wasted personal attack and looks ridiculus in the eyes of those who really knows what is going on.
again, I repeat this author is not a daoist and have never train any indepth Daoist stuffs. This person also doesnt have advance level in White Crane Eng Chun art. any one who has basic training in Daoist and White CRane knows what components are distorted and missing.
Get it to your advisor GM Lee Kong and let him tell you what is missing.
Hendrik, apart from a absolutely terrible command and understanding of the English language and spelling, you also show your own ignorance by not answering what are simple and easy questions.
Why do you evade answering these questions Hendrik? What do you have to hide? If you have nothing to hide and if you are so sure that yours is the “right” way then why not answer the questions? What do you have to lose?
Your comfortable being you aren’t you? Your confident within your own ability and knowledge aren’t you? If so then why can’t you answer what are simple, easy and very basic questions?
You see Hendrik, I’ve looked over many of your pasts posts on this forum and every time someone asks you a direct question … you don’t answer, you evade it and counter with some sort of claim that the person asking the questions is “attacking” you or not “worthy” of your so-called “Time”, “answer” or “knowledge!”
In fact I will even go as far to say that you are a habitual evader when it comes to answering direct questions put to you!
If your not prepared to answer these questions fully and honestly. if your simply going to play childish games (all the while revealing a great deal about yourself, your character and lack of real knowledge) then I and I’m sure many of the others here will simply ignore you for the “Bull@#t Artist” you are presenting yourself to be!
[QUOTE=Minghequan;1145514]Hendrik, apart from a absolutely terrible command and understanding of the English language and spelling, you also show your own ignorance by not answering what are simple and easy questions.
Why do you evade answering these questions Hendrik? What do you have to hide? If you have nothing to hide and if you are so sure that yours is the “right” way then why not answer the questions? What do you have to lose?
Your comfortable being you aren’t you? Your confident within your own ability and knowledge aren’t you? If so then why can’t you answer what are simple, easy and very basic questions?
You see Hendrik, I’ve looked over many of your pasts posts on this forum and every time someone asks you a direct question … you don’t answer, you evade it and counter with some sort of claim that the person asking the questions is “attacking” you or not “worthy” of your so-called “Time”, “answer” or “knowledge!”
In fact I will even go as far to say that you are a habitual evader when it comes to answering direct questions put to you!
If your not prepared to answer these questions fully and honestly. if your simply going to play childish games (all the while revealing a great deal about yourself, your character and lack of real knowledge) then I and I’m sure many of the others here will simply ignore you for the “Bull@#t Artist” you are presenting yourself to be!
[/QUOTE]
I really become enjoying your way of thinking. Well, let it be let it be.
you are not serious wanting to find out what is going on in White Crane. that is what I pick up from here. So, I am out of here.
Hendrik.
You are name dropping here. Do you really get the advise from Su Ying Han or Lee Kong? I doubt. I know these two master’s quality, so I doubt you take their advise.
Okay, so let me get this right? Your saying or wrote that I don’t know these two masters. You wrote that you doubt I knew these two Master of White Crane (at least that’s what your post said before you edited it! … Last edited by Hendrik; Today at 05:15 PM. )
And then there’s this:
Do you think Master Su YingHan would have awarded me this if I did not know what I am doing in White Crane Gongfu? Are you questioning Master Su YingHan’s judgement and character? Are you saying these Masters are Wrong? Are you saying that these Masters don’t know what they are talking about?
Man you are just so wrong and so full of it!
Even more:
And:
Hmm, I think maybe you have bitten off a little more than you can chew Hendrik “old buddy!”
Do you even know who gave me the information and charts you claim to know so much but demonstrate so little about? No I thought not. Man would you be surprised! 
Anytime you want to offer an apology Hendrik, I’ll be here waiting 
You see Hendrik, your failure to answer any of the very simple and easy questions I put forward to you says volumes about your so-called “knowledge” and understanding of anything to do with Real White Crane.
Again, I put it to you Hendrik:
Who have you actually trained with in White Crane? Who are the “REAL GUYS”, the “REAL DEAL:” you have trained with in White Crane Gongfu to arrive at your opinion as expressed here???
WHO HAVE YOU HAVE TRAINED WITH IN WHITE CRANE GONGFU???
Rather than answer, what do you do? You pack up your toys and go home! Hey, that’s pretty cool … wasn’t it you who told me to “Go Home”:
Hendrik:
Go home, do your homework.
Talk about irony!!!
We Aussies are a pretty straight forward bunch so mate, putting it clearly, your so full of Bull@#t your eyes must have turned brown!
Hendrik,
A little bit of advice, if you didn’t deliberately try to come across as a “Know-It-All” then maybe you’d be treated a little different and the discussions would flow so much better. But when you come across as believing that you and only you have all the answers well mate it just makes it look like “you are up yourself!”
No one person has all the answers. That’s why the Martial Arts are such a wonderful journey! Focus on the journey Hendrik and forget about the destination. Be prepared to learn from others and to curb your ego and you will find a whole new world of learning will open up for you.
Phil Redmond & Ten Tigers,
My sincere apology for my part in the negativity taking part in this discussion. It was not my intention.
I apologise for Hendrik too. I don’t think he is aware of his own actions.
Rather I am here to learn and share … if only a little.
I hope you will accept my apology.
-
“perfecting essence, transforming qi”
-
“perfecting essence, transforming spirit” - as above
-
form
-
qi
-
spirit
-
body (as in the human body)
-
life structure
-
mental structure
-
matter / substance
-
capability
-
information
““ - image one: Chinese Daoism (religion) “Conduct, Qi, Spirit”
Another translation is:
– “Train essence into Qi.”
– “Train Qi into spirit.”
Third line of boxes:
– “bodily structure/composition”
– “life/vital/biological/living structure/composition”
– “mental/psychological structure/composition”
– “material” (though, I like “matter” better)
– “energy” (in the sense modern science understands)
– “information” (I think this is the only likely choice among other possibilities)
““:
““ – “Chart One: The Concept in the Chinese School of Daoism (Religion) of the Three-in-One Human Body of ‘Form, Qi, and Spirit’”
: cultivate Jing to transform into Chi
: cultivate Chi to transform into Shen
(Form) … (Chi) … (Shen)
(The body structure) … (The vital structure) … (The psychological structure)
(Substance) … (Energy) … () Information
The White Crane Fist is a style that was developed by combining the animated imitation of the “Crane” and the “martial arts” concepts.
This text was based on the skilled sparring on the Chinese martial arts Kung(cultivation) and Fa(form) essential basics. Finalized something that one may see the body phenomena of the Form, Chi, and Shen externally but not internally. The research configuration is shown in Diagram 3.
1.: The philosophy of the White Crane Fist movements.
Ideas are mimic from pictographic forms of action (from animals )for the thoughts of animation.
(martial art sparring)----------->White Crane Fist)-------->() immortal-Crane
White Crane Fist)------------->Human)
-
Martial art cultivations and methods-------->
the four cultivations (inhale) (exhale) (flow)and (sink) (method in breathing)
the four methods (fly) (yell) (rest)and (eat) (To set the inner soul) -
(Yin-Yang, the five elements)
The movement gestures may be seen externally—>
he vital energy may not be seen internally) -
The body view of “Form, Chi, and Shen” three in one as an integral.
The posture of movements.
: The ultimate method of exhalation and inhalation.
: The thinking of consciousness.
The body philosophy of the White Crane Fist
Figure 3: The research configuration Chart.