Fujian white crane and wing chun a comparrision

[kung_fu_fighter]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1271226]I can’t speak for Wing Chun but in White Crane we have been told that “all kicks are within the arms” meaning that the kicks themselves are not extended too far beyond the arms reach.

We also do our kicks at a 45 degree angle without full extension of the leg and without aligning the standing foot, hip knee and kicking foot in a line like you may see in Karate or Taekwondo.

[/QUOTE]

Nice Post Ron,
This is also in line with how I was taught to kick in wing chun. I started this thread with the intention that this would be a great opportunity to start up a discussion on a comparision of wing chun and white crane concepts and principles.

Some topics of discussion could include The fujian white crane Bagua concept, or strategies of stepping ( chart with a code for actual strategies) mui fa baat gwa (plum blossom eight trigrams) http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/559/dlzq.jpg.

The diagonal angles (Four Horizontal golden points) and minor blocks. (up, down , left and right. The bagua strategies of kicking and hand bridge work.

lien wan kao da (continuous capture hit)

Fujian white crane principle of going to the forth door

[Minghequan]

Really pushed for time at the moment as I’m pushing myself to get my final draft of my book/syllabus finished within the next two weeks so my answers and input (For now) will be brief!

I will address an number of the areas you have raised soon but for right now my focus is on my writing. I will try to pop back later today and add something to the discussion.

How is this for a starter:

This is the Plum Blossom Pillars Illustration as used in our White crane and you can clearly see the lines or aspects of movement, Gates and directions.

[kung_fu_fighter]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1271282]Really pushed for time at the moment as I’m pushing myself to get my final draft of my book/syllabus finished within the next two weeks so my answers and input (For now) will be brief!

I will address an number of the areas you have raised soon but for right now my focus is on my writing. I will try to pop back later today and add something to the discussion.

How is this for a starter:

This is the Plum Blossom Pillars Illustration as used in our White crane and you can clearly see the lines or aspects of movement, Gates and directions.[/QUOTE]

thanks for the reply,
Perhaps you can explain what the arrows mean on the outside?

[Minghequan]

Differing Directions (circular) in relation to the opponent using the front, side, back and other angles.

[Minghequan]

Some more on White Crane

IRON SAND / CRANE FAN PALM

Within the White Crane Gongfu art this Hand Form is used more than any other. It is a Signature Characteristic of the style on an internal level. The Wu Bei Zhi states that one point for this attack is the Fengchi (Pool of Wind) Point struck in and downward on the nerve sending the energy down to the way the nerve itself has exited the body following this neural pathway. The strike can also be delivered upward & in towards the skull at a 45 degree angle causing loss of motor function & consciousness by directly attacking the Lesser Occipital Nerve.

The Iron Sand Palm uses a special Exploding transference of energetics into the desired target via the palm. Quickly splaying or extending the fingers causes the palm to generate an expansive energy upon impact resulting in a shock wave. Much like hitting water in a container causing a strong vibrational ripple effect!

The fingers are depicted as being pulled or held backwards extended if you will, allowing the upper and lower palm areas to be extended forward into the strike. This teaches the initiated White Crane Gongfu practitioner that the Palm is exploded forward via the stretching or splaying of the fingers. This is one of the true Secrets of White Crane Gongfu and Dim Mak or Pressure Point / Blood Gate Striking . Short, sharp, natural kinetic energy transfer ~ the Hallmark of true Original White Crane Gongfu! The palm Explodes onto the point and a slight Twist or tweaking action should also be used to transfer the kinetic energy into the area being struck.

The Tianzhu (Heavenly Pillar) point (Greater Occipital Nerve) can also be struck producing a similar response. As can the Heavenly Window Tianchuang which is described as being a Window of the Sky point as it disrupts the opponents Shen or Spirit .. one of the more deadly points of the Wu Bei Zhis dusty pages.

Yinfeng known as the Shielding Wind or Wind Screen point is a major point to be struck with this Hand Form.

Mentioned in the Wu Bei Zhis Diagram of the Bronze Statue 36 Points are listed. Amongst those points is the aforementioned Yinfeng. Here a secret is revealed .. the name Shielding Wind or Wind Field relates to that of the Qi and the protection of same (Life Energy) so an attack here will be fatal.

It effects both the great auricularnerve and branches of the facial nerve.In terms of Traditional Chinese Medicine it is the intersection of the Triple Warmer and Gall Bladder Meridian with The Triple warmer being associated with the Fire Element and the Gall Bladder, the Wood element. Of course these are but a few of the areas that can be struck with this hand form.

This strike is used to attack the Sishencong points made up of four main points on the top of the head as well as the Baihui Point in the Centre. A strike can also be delivered with great effect to Yangbai (Yang White). One can clearly see the difference in the energetics of the Palms shown. The palm itself has transferred from a Yin to Yang state of energetics overloading the opponents body in term of the energetics. Yin Strikes will cause the opponents body to fold in and down while a Yang attack will cause the opponents body to open, lifting the feet off the floor in a less controlled fall and more volatile action. That used in the strike has the fingers splayed and the palm pads projected forwards adding kinetic percussive energy into the strike as per the illustration of the Iron Sand Fan Palm as seen within the Wu Bei Zhi

[Minghequan]

Some more on White Crane

Some more on White Crane

“IRON SAND / CRANE PALM”

Within the White Crane Gongfu art this Hand Form is used more than any other. It is a Signature Characteristic of the style on an internal level. The Wu Bei Zhi states that one point for this attack is the “Fengchi” (Pool of Wind) Point struck in and downward on the nerve sending the energy down to the way the nerve itself has exited the body following this neural pathway. The strike can also be delivered upward & in towards the skull at a 45 degree angle causing loss of motor function & consciousness by directly attacking the Lesser Occipital Nerve.

The Iron Sand Palm uses a special Exploding transference of energetics into the desired target via the palm. Quickly splaying or extending the fingers causes the palm to generate an expansive energy upon impact resulting in a shock wave. Much like hitting water in a container causing a strong vibrational ripple effect!

The fingers are depicted as being “pulled” or “held” backwards …extended if you will, allowing the upper and lower palm areas to be extended forward into the strike. This teaches the initiated White Crane Gongfu practitioner that the Palm is “exploded” forward via the stretching or splaying of the fingers. This is one of the true Secrets of White Crane Gongfu and Dim Mak or Pressure Point / Blood Gate Striking …. Short, sharp, natural kinetic energy transfer ~ the Hallmark of true Original White Crane Gongfu! The palm “Explodes” onto the point and a slight “Twist” or tweaking action should also be used to transfer the kinetic energy into the area being struck.

The “Tianzhu” (Heavenly Pillar) point (Greater Occipital Nerve) can also be struck producing a similar response. As can the “Heavenly Window” – Tianchuang which is described as being a “Window of the Sky” point as it disrupts the opponents “Shen” or “Spirit” ….. one of the more deadly points of the Wu Bei Zhi’s dusty pages.

“Yinfeng” known as the “Shielding Wind” or “Wind Screen” point is a major point to be struck with this Hand Form.

Mentioned in the Wu Bei Zhi’s “Diagram of the Bronze Statue” 36 Points are listed. Amongst those points is the aforementioned “Yinfeng”. Here a secret is revealed ….. the name “Shielding Wind” or “Wind Field” relates to that of the Qi and the protection of same (Life Energy) so an attack here will be fatal.

It effects both the great auricularnerve and branches of the facial nerve.In terms of Traditional Chinese Medicine it is the intersection of the Triple Warmer and Gall Bladder Meridian with The Triple warmer being associated with the Fire Element and the Gall Bladder, the Wood element. Of course these are but a few of the areas that can be struck with this hand form.

This strike is used to attack the Sishencong points made up of four main points on the top of the head as well as the Baihui Point in the Centre. A strike can also be delivered with great effect to Yangbai (“Yang White”). One can clearly see the difference in the energetics of the Palms shown. The palm itself has transferred from a Yin to Yang state of energetics overloading the opponent’s body in term of the energetics. Yin Strikes will cause the opponents body to fold in and down while a Yang attack will cause the opponents body to open, lifting the feet off the floor in a less controlled fall and more volatile action. That used in the strike has the fingers splayed and the palm “pads” projected forwards adding kinetic percussive energy into the strike as per the illustration of the Iron Sand Fan Palm as seen within the Wu Bei Zhi

[Minghequan]

Hey KF-Fighter (and others)

You wanted some points for discussion so I have put this out there, no response?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1271423]Hey KF-Fighter (and others)

You wanted some points for discussion so I have put this out there, no response?[/QUOTE]

I appreciated seeing the pic of the plum blossom with the 8 jongs superimposed on a balanced way.

Those symbols are meaningful to some Ip Man wing chun folks. Me anyway.

[kung_fu_fighter]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1271292]Differing Directions (circular) in relation to the opponent using the front, side, back and other angles.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the diagram and explanation Ron!

                                                   In my wing chun, in regards to footwork I use the 8 angular lines on the inside of your diagram (plum blossom footwork) for offence, and the outside arrows for evasion or repositioning for an immediate counter attack (Bagua). Is the footwork in Fujian white crane applied using the same concept or idea in mind?

Does this diagram apply to just Fujian white crane footwork or hand/bridge work as well?

Also Can you explain what’s going with the lines or aspects of movement, Gates and directions of this Plum Blossom Pillars diagram?

[http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8727&stc=1&d=1402901087

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1271294]IRON SAND / CRANE PALM

Within the White Crane Gongfu art this Hand Form is used more than any other. It is a Signature Characteristic of the style on an internal level. The Wu Bei Zhi states that one point for this attack is the Fengchi (Pool of Wind) Point struck in and downward on the nerve sending the energy down to the way the nerve itself has exited the body following this neural pathway. The strike can also be delivered upward & in towards the skull at a 45 degree angle causing loss of motor function & consciousness by directly attacking the Lesser Occipital Nerve.

The Iron Sand Palm uses a special Exploding transference of energetics into the desired target via the palm. Quickly splaying or extending the fingers causes the palm to generate an expansive energy upon impact resulting in a shock wave. Much like hitting water in a container causing a strong vibrational ripple effect!

The fingers are depicted as being pulled or held backwards extended if you will, allowing the upper and lower palm areas to be extended forward into the strike. This teaches the initiated White Crane Gongfu practitioner that the Palm is exploded forward via the stretching or splaying of the fingers. This is one of the true Secrets of White Crane Gongfu and Dim Mak or Pressure Point / Blood Gate Striking . Short, sharp, natural kinetic energy transfer ~ the Hallmark of true Original White Crane Gongfu! The palm Explodes onto the point and a slight Twist or tweaking action should also be used to transfer the kinetic energy into the area being struck.

The Tianzhu (Heavenly Pillar) point (Greater Occipital Nerve) can also be struck producing a similar response. As can the Heavenly Window Tianchuang which is described as being a Window of the Sky point as it disrupts the opponents Shen or Spirit .. one of the more deadly points of the Wu Bei Zhis dusty pages.

Yinfeng known as the Shielding Wind or Wind Screen point is a major point to be struck with this Hand Form.

Mentioned in the Wu Bei Zhis Diagram of the Bronze Statue 36 Points are listed. Amongst those points is the aforementioned Yinfeng. Here a secret is revealed .. the name Shielding Wind or Wind Field relates to that of the Qi and the protection of same (Life Energy) so an attack here will be fatal.

It effects both the great auricularnerve and branches of the facial nerve.In terms of Traditional Chinese Medicine it is the intersection of the Triple Warmer and Gall Bladder Meridian with The Triple warmer being associated with the Fire Element and the Gall Bladder, the Wood element. Of course these are but a few of the areas that can be struck with this hand form.

This strike is used to attack the Sishencong points made up of four main points on the top of the head as well as the Baihui Point in the Centre. A strike can also be delivered with great effect to Yangbai (Yang White). One can clearly see the difference in the energetics of the Palms shown. The palm itself has transferred from a Yin to Yang state of energetics overloading the opponents body in term of the energetics. Yin Strikes will cause the opponents body to fold in and down while a Yang attack will cause the opponents body to open, lifting the feet off the floor in a less controlled fall and more volatile action. That used in the strike has the fingers splayed and the palm pads projected forwards adding kinetic percussive energy into the strike as per the illustration of the Iron Sand Fan Palm as seen within the Wu Bei Zhi[/QUOTE]

It would be great to hear more about this aspect of Fujian white crane.

[kung_fu_fighter]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1271423]Hey KF-Fighter (and others)

You wanted some points for discussion so I have put this out there, no response?[/QUOTE]

Hey Ron,
I’ve replied, but no response for you or others as well.

[Minghequan]

Really pushed for time at the moment as I’m pushing myself to get my final draft of my book/syllabus finished within the next two or three weeks plus poreparing for a major Workshop I’m teaching in Sydney as well as our DVD series so my answers and input (For now) will be brief!

I will address an number of the areas you have raised.

In my wing chun, in regards to footwork I use the 8 angular lines on the inside of your diagram (plum blossom footwork) for offence, and the outside arrows for evasion or repositioning for an immediate counter attack (Bagua). Is the footwork in Fujian white crane applied using the same concept or idea in mind?

Does this diagram apply to just Fujian white crane footwork or hand/bridge work as well?

Also Can you explain what’s going with the lines or aspects of movement, Gates and directions of this Plum Blossom Pillars diagram?

1/. Yes very similar although the lines can also be defensive. One thing is that traditional, White crane does not step straight back as this give the time to the aggressor and also maximizes his forward kinetic energy.

2/. The diagram relates to A). Footwork, B). Defensive actions (Hand Bridge), C). Offensive actions (Hand Bridge).

3/. Are you talking about my diagram or the one you posted?

Looking forward to the discussion.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1271635]Really pushed for time at the moment as I’m pushing myself to get my final draft of my book/syllabus finished within the next two or three weeks plus poreparing for a major Workshop I’m teaching in Sydney as well as our DVD series so my answers and input (For now) will be brief!

I will address an number of the areas you have raised.

1/. Yes very similar although the lines can also be defensive. One thing is that traditional, White crane does not step straight back as this give the time to the aggressor and also maximizes his forward kinetic energy.

2/. The diagram relates to A). Footwork, B). Defensive actions (Hand Bridge), C). Offensive actions (Hand Bridge).

3/. Are you talking about my diagram or the one you posted?

Looking forward to the discussion.[/QUOTE]

Sounds as though you are busy.

The plum blossom design and the 8 jongs are important also in some wing chun families.
I don’t use the sanchin stance you seemed to use. But with good footwork one can appear to step back without
giving up the line or the distance to the target.

[kung_fu_fighter]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1271635]1/. Yes very similar although the lines can also be defensive. One thing is that traditional, White crane does not step straight back as this give the time to the aggressor and also maximizes his forward kinetic energy.[/QUOTE]

Same in wing chun! In your white crane linage, do you use a bagua chart and it’s code in regards to actual stepping strategies?

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1271635]3/. Are you talking about my diagram or the one you posted?[/QUOTE]

I am referring to this diagram http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8727&stc=1&d=1402901087

What are some strategies used in Fujian white crane to close the distance on an evasive opponent such as a western boxer?

Can you explain some examples of how “lien wan kao da (continuous capture hit)” is used or applied?

[kung_fu_fighter]

here is a comparision of
FUJIAN WHITE CRANE FIVE ELEMENT HANDS AND WING CHUN TECHNIQUES

1. WaterTan Sao

2. WoodBiu Sao

3. EarthFook Sao

4. MetalDing Sao

5. FirePak Sao

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1271635]1/. Yes very similar although the lines can also be defensive. One thing is that traditional, White crane does not step straight back as this give the time to the aggressor and also maximizes his forward kinetic energy.[/QUOTE]

Same in wing chun!

[kung_fu_fighter]

Hey Ron,
If you are still around, got 3 questions for you!
In your white crane linage, do you use a bagua chart and it’s code in regards to actual stepping strategies?

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1271635]3/. Are you talking about my diagram or the one you posted?[/QUOTE]

I am referring to this diagram http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8727&stc=1&d=1402901087

What are some strategies used in Fujian white crane to close the distance on an evasive opponent such as a western boxer?

Can you explain some examples of how “lien wan kao da (continuous capture hit)” is used or applied?

[Minghequan]

Really pushed for time as I have only recently returned home after a series of successful workshops in Sydney.

To answer quickly …

1/. Yes! this has to do also with energetics i. e. forward stepping = positive, backward stepping = negative, right side step = negative, left side step = positive etc. Raising the lead leg as one steps forward activates what we call water ocean and following this up with the rear leg/foot connects energetically to the opposite striking hand.

2/. Ha! giving away secrets! We never step back unless totally forced to do so. Forward energy or at least energy that takes us in tangents to the opponent (Front and Side Gates) is the aim designed to overwhelm the attacker physically shutting down his attacks and dividing the opponents mind are but two applications. We have a number of what you most probably call “Entry Techniques” but too many to go into detail here. If I get a chance I will publish some photo’s illustrating this:

3/. The term explains itself really! You capture, hit with the closest hand weapon etc and flow! (Lin sil die dar).

[kung_fu_fighter]

Thanks for the reply Ron!

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1272767]1/. Yes! this has to do also with energetics i. e. forward stepping = positive, backward stepping = negative, right side step = negative, left side step = positive etc. Raising the lead leg as one steps forward activates what we call water ocean and following this up with the rear leg/foot connects energetically to the opposite striking hand.[/QUOTE]

Can you explain what the strategy/tactics are that’s involved with this?

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1272767]2/. Ha! giving away secrets! We never step back unless totally forced to do so. Forward energy or at least energy that takes us in tangents to the opponent (Front and Side Gates) is the aim designed to overwhelm the attacker physically shutting down his attacks and dividing the opponents mind are but two applications. [/QUOTE]

Same in wing chun!

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1272767]We have a number of what you most probably call “Entry Techniques” but too many to go into detail here. If I get a chance I will publish some photo’s illustrating this:[/QUOTE]

That would be great to see!

Is this some good examples of applications of “lien wan kao da (continuous capture hit)” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyLHro1W2GU? if not can you please post a decent video of this?

[Minghequan]

1/. Strategy: Taking the opponents center so they have no base of power & counters. Making them “vacate” their positioning. Basic level stuff.

2/.

Look closely. Here is a high step moving forward converte3d into a kick and the entry hands sticking tactile areas.

3/. The examples shown in the Vid: Rubbish! Not even close. Too much moving in and out, thus giving the opponent more reaction time. Also moving out, stopping and then re-initiating movement shows a total lack of kinetic energy … moving one direction then stopping that movement then re-starting movement to another area … dead in the water techniques!

We go in and use small techniques with applied energetics or kinetics (Six Ji Hands) in a totally natural manner, small motions, big effect!!! Real internal White Crane, not overtly exaggerated rubbish!

[Minghequan]

Pushed for time so here goes …

1/. Strategy: Taking the opponents center so they have no base of power & counters. Making them “vacate” their positioning. Basic level stuff.

2/.

Look closely. Here is a high step moving forward converted into a kick and the entry hands sticking tactile areas.

Another example:Master Liu Gu demonstrating the Fire Hands Application!

The stance is the San Jiao Ma or Tri-Angle Battle Stance, the feet (in regards to the turning of the toes) are again not in a fully “open” or “closed” position.
This causes the activation of K-1 on the bottom of the foot.

The first article of the Wu Bei Zhi goes on to state about Principles of Movement:

Moving in the stance should be almost the same as walking naturally. One begins the step gently and naturally and concludes it with firmness.
Smoothly, each step is the same as the last, the big toe of the rear foot aligned with the heel of the other, with a distance of the shoulder separating them.
Foot movement, both in a forward and backward direction should represent the circumference of a half-moon with the knees slightly bent.
The quadriceps muscle groups must maintain a relaxed position allowing the ability to move quickly from that posture.

Even when you are naturally walking, please be aware of the coordination of air from within the body and synchronize it with each step or groups of steps and should you be attacked and struck, you will not relinquish your balance.

The relationship between your legs and body is similar to that of the wheels on a wagon. If you don’t train your legs enough, you will have great hand technique with no stability or mobility, which is of little or no use.

It is usually taught by most as a “push” similar to that seen in Taiji.

However it can also be a strike to the Zhangmen - System’s Door area by varying the height and timing of the strike.

The direction of such a strike would be straight inwards with the left Liver 13 point struck then the right Liver 13 point. The Liver 14 (Qimen - Expectations Door) can also be struck in a slightly inwards manner (laterally across the body).

Stomach 15 (Wuyi - Room Screen) and or Stomach 16 (Yingghuan - Breast’s Window) can also be targeted to great effect (Stopping the heart!)
This uses a type of “squeeze” action of the elbows causing the hands to strike in a counter clockwise and clockwise fashion.

3/. The examples shown in the Vid: Rubbish! Not even close. Too much moving in and out, thus giving the opponent more reaction time. Also moving out, stopping and then re-initiating movement shows a total lack of kinetic energy … moving one direction then stopping that movement then re-starting movement to another area … dead in the water techniques!

We go in and use small techniques with applied energetics or kinetics (Six Ji Hands) in a totally natural manner, small motions, big effect!!! Real internal White Crane, not overtly exaggerated rubbish!

[kung_fu_fighter]

Thanks for the reply Ron!

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1272767]1/. Yes! this has to do also with energetics i. e. forward stepping = positive, backward stepping = negative, right side step = negative, left side step = positive etc. Raising the lead leg as one steps forward activates what we call water ocean and following this up with the rear leg/foot connects energetically to the opposite striking hand.

1/. Strategy: Taking the opponents center so they have no base of power & counters. Making them “vacate” their positioning. Basic level stuff.[/QUOTE]

I was referring more specificly to what the stepping strategy/tactics are to counter the opponent’s stepping direction? for example is there a specific formula of where to step in relation to the direction of where the opponent is stepping?

How does the diagram provide a road map of where to step in relation to where the opponent is stepping in order to counter his movement?

“In wing chun Sometimes this footwork is referred to Um Ying Baat Gwa Bou, which increases the level of understanding again ( five elements /five form eight directions)”

What does the “five elements /five form” mean in regards to stepping/footwork in Fuzhou white crane ?