I’ve been doing an art called Kajukenbo for about 13 years. I’ve also done Choy Lee Fut for the last 6 years. Over the years, I’ve noticed a difference in training (I still go to both schools twice a week each). In our Kajukenbo school, there are forms but the emphasis is on self-defense techniques. These are sometimes a few short moves taken out of a form and designed for a certain attack (for example, a grab). So, we have punching techniques, club techniques, grab techniques, knife techniques, and so on. These are fairly easy to learn. As we advance thru the ranks, we add take downs, apply ground work like finishing holds, etc. Our Choy Lee Fut school focuses more on forms training. Even though we are taught applications, the applications are not practiced day in and day out like the Kajukenbo school (where learning the techniques are required for promotion). Over the years, in comparing the two systems that I’ve studied, I’ve felt that if I had only studied Choy Lee Fut, the time to really get good at using it in reality would have taken a lot longer. After about 1 year of Kajukenbo training, I felt that I was able to use it in a street situation if needed. My question is (especially for those that study a traditional kung fu system) whether your school breaks down three of four movements from various forms and creates techniques to practice with partners, or if you use other methods to training what you leaned in forms so that you can apply techniques on the street in a fluent manner without doing any thinking.
In my school we practice the forms and the techniques as well, the techniques are derived from the forms, and then trained individually to develop the correct power and accuracy, after that the form is practiced with the correct power and accuracy due to the single hands. With the fighting techniques, we concentrate on it a bit more than the forms cause the forms can obviously be practiced at home. The techniques from the form are obviously found in the fighting techniques. And basically it just extends the knowledge of what techniques can be used for the street, from that point onwards the hands should react by themselves.
Adjusting a guitar with a crescent wrench…
Forms are an awesome tool and resource, but what mechanic makes it with only one crescent wrench in his toolbox?
At our school, we have drills specifically for blocking in order to teach centerline defense and we have drills focusing on different techniques and skills (sweeping effectively vs. defending a sweep effectively, etc.). We sometimes drill specific techniques, too.
We also have a club that practices traditional San Shou (individual techniques and combos drilled over and over) before putting it all together in sparring.
forms are just meant to be like learning scales in music, or how the army learns to march. it gives you a foundation to work from, flow.
The practical techniques show you what the things in the forms mean and how to use them.
Forms help to allow you to learn to blend the practical techniques all together so you can flow spontaneously in fighting.
Someone who just does forms is dancing, someone who just does techniques won’t flow so well.
Do both and you have kungfu.
KAJUKENBO_MAN, without forms there are no drills. People seem to use the word forms without awareness of what goes into that. Drills comes as a refinement of the forms parts. Which is a big drill. Drill of execution And endurance. Of developing Strength, Power, Dexterity…
So called practical techniques is a subset of Forms.
In explaining, things get simplfied. In simplifying, aspects are left out. And only things the listener Might grasp are left. Sometime the whole of a concept is not there. Some might not get the whole picture ever, once they think they completely understand.
There is also perhaps types of conditioning. understanding of timingin Every aspect, of distance, of force, of yield, of variatyion.?.
More to the whole than merely "practical techniques and forms.
Well we train drills but no forms. Very little techinque either.
AHAHAHHAHAHAHH KAJUKENBO. MAN YOUR WASTING YOUR TIME. YOU SPEAK OF ALL THESE TECHNIQUES YOU HAVE. FUNNY BECAUSE WHEN I WENT TO LAS VEGAS TO SEE ONE OF YOUR ****TY TOURNAMENTS I WAS WATCHING THE SPARRING AND BOY WHAT A BUNCH OF UNTRAINED *******S YOU ARE. YOU WALK AROUND IN YOUR GI THINKNG YOUR THE **** AND YOU GUYS ARE NOTHING. MIKE TYSON CAN TAKE EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU GUYS OUT. BUT WAIT YOU GUYS HAVE SOME SPECIAL DEATH TECHNIQUE RIGHT. OR LET ME GUESS YOU’LL GRAB HIS ARM AND THROW HIM. HAHHAA YOU SORRY LITTLE RAT FACED CHINAMAN WORSHIPPER.
AHAHAHHAHAHAHH KAJUKENBO. MAN YOUR WASTING YOUR TIME. YOU SPEAK OF ALL THESE TECHNIQUES YOU HAVE. FUNNY BECAUSE WHEN I WENT TO LAS VEGAS TO SEE ONE OF YOUR ****TY TOURNAMENTS I WAS WATCHING THE SPARRING AND BOY WHAT A BUNCH OF UNTRAINED *******S YOU ARE. YOU WALK AROUND IN YOUR GI THINKNG YOUR THE **** AND YOU GUYS ARE NOTHING. MIKE TYSON CAN TAKE EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU GUYS OUT. BUT WAIT YOU GUYS HAVE SOME SPECIAL DEATH TECHNIQUE RIGHT. OR LET ME GUESS YOU’LL GRAB HIS ARM AND THROW HIM. HAHHAA YOU SORRY LITTLE RAT FACED CHINAMAN WORSHIPPER.:eek:
I believe that forms should not be taught to beginners. From the word go sparring drills should be worked on. It is only when a practitioner has gained enough experience of applied techniques that forms can be useful as one of the training method and not the ONLY training method. I am not saying all martial arts but martial arts is the only physical endeavour where it is common for one not to actually do what one is supposed to do. I mean swimmers swim and football playes actually plays football but a lot martial artists do not even want to spar or spar enough, they are contented with forms.
I think that MMA/NHB has revolutionarise current day martial arts. But one can also say that it has brought it back to its origins, back to the original traditional martial arts before forms were the trend. Back in the days it was more like shadow sparring and not a dance.
forms are for forms competitions as far as I can tell
I was talking to a guy yesterday who has studied choy lee fut with one of the main schools here in the UK. He was showing me some of the form stuff, then talked about sparring. I asked if the form techniques were what they used in sparring. “Oh no”, he said, “it was more like kickboxing”…
i feel that forms are only useful if you can pick out the applications and use them in a real life situation. It goes with out question though that technique is the way to go, as most forms require a certain set-up move. Technique is just all round good fighting if you have good technique.
Forms are a training tool, they show possible combinations and possible applications, as well as teaching you flow and a few other things.
They are a starting point towards the true exploration of the style.
Single movement drills, IMO, are better suited for the beginner.
If you limit yourself to what you see in forms as far as techniques and/or applications go you missed the boat. IMHO.
MA training is about developing attributes that become second nature and will be used automatically when needed.
End goal of you study should be usage of the styles principles in whatever you do and the ability to react automatically and correctly to a threat.
In the end it does not matter what technique you used or not if the principles have become 2nd nature to you.
Just some thoughts.
i know what you mean man..
KAJUKENBO_MAN, i know what you mean. In my school, we do forms but our shifu will tells the applications for each move in the form. Somehow, he thinks this is enough and then we just go on and on and on practising the forms.
Personally, I think this is crap because it is the moves that make the forms. Hence, what should happen is the moves of the form should be practiced individually with a partner so that firstly, it becomes applicable and secondly, you familiarise yourself with it. So after you master one move, then you go on to the next and so on. And by the time you finish all the moves of the form, then you’ve really learnt the form and you can practice it at one shot. A good kung fu master only needs to know a couple of forms.
Well, that’s just my 2 cents worth.
what the pong lai school does is take hand drills, one person exercises, two person exercises, the two person form, indvidual two person exercises that end in a takedown, sweep,ect. there is so much just in bung bo. i think it’s good that your kajukenbo school trains techniques every day. definitily good to train against knives and clubs. with what you said about your CLF, it sounded like a good idea to cross train.
EuroBoxer–if you hate chinese martial arts so much, why are you a forum member in a chinese martial arts forum? you sure do talk a lot about something you hate so much. do you wear tights and a codpiece when you fence?