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21

[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;972704]maybe i generalized a bit but the general gist of it was my point. [/quote]

Good, and I am very happy for you.

So that means you will keep on denying that there are TCMA concepts that you don’t know about?

Are you saying that you personally have not heard of the concepts that I and the poster David were talking about and hence no such concepts are possible “the world over”? Christ, this is getting better all the time.LOL

Look, there is a lot of TCMA stuff out there that is not in books or dvds. Stuff that is not taught openly. You really dare to have the mindset of “if it exists then I would have known about it”? Who is being a pompous know it all now?

You guys really have to come down from your high horses and stop ridiculing people and TCMA concepts that are way above your heads!

My chosen path is kung fu. It is my path. It may not be yours or others but I find all that I need and more in its rich training curriculum. Others may have other arts and paths and again good luck to them, but don’t be blind to concepts you don’t know ziltch about, wether they are from the East, the West, NOrth or South!

22

So that means you will keep on denying that there are TCMA concepts that you don’t know about?

no it mean just what it states… you do not know what I know or could know what I know.

Are you saying that you personally have not heard of the concepts that I and the poster David were talking about and hence no such concepts are possible “the world over”? Christ, this is getting better all the time.LOL

Look, there is a lot of TCMA stuff out there that is not in books or dvds. Stuff that is not taught openly. You really dare to have the mindset of “if it exists then I would have known about it”? Who is being a pompous know it all now?

You guys really have to come down from your high horses and stop ridiculing people and TCMA concepts that are way above your heads!

I never stated anything and thats the point. YOU LUMP EVERYONE INTO A CATAGORY.

there is a lot of TCMA stuff out there that is not in books or dvds
you know how many times you have stated that very statement? And I’ll state, there is a lot of MA stuff out there that is not in books and DVDS and not taught openly. I do not know it all but I will say i’ve been around the block enough to know many different things about different MA’s including kung fu.

as for concepts above my head… lol… like i stated before we only have 2 arms and 2 legs until we grow other appendages then i’ve probably seen the gist of it all. Not saying I’m proficient at it but I’ve been around it.

My chosen path is kung fu. It is my path. It may not be yours or others but I find all that I need and more in its rich training curriculum. Others may have other arts and paths and again good luck to them, but don’t be blind to concepts you don’t know ziltch about, wether they are from the East, the West, NOrth or South!

great like i said before. But don’t PUT EVERYONE ELSE INTO A CATAGORY. and i’ll say the same to you don’t be blind to concepts and directions that other arts teach. I’m very open to other arts and cross train into many east west south and north variants.

23

[QUOTE=IronWeasel;972693]Wow.

I just had the BEST cry!

Thank you.
thank you.

;)[/QUOTE]

My duty is to serve.

24

HW,

you really come across as someone that talks way too much and shows nothing of the things you talk about.

Hence most people here think you are a mere mouthboxer.

Someday it would be good to meet up and see if you can match your mouth with your skills.

My door is always open.

25

With all due respect, you should stop acting like a wounded sore butt!

[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;972727]no it mean just what it states… you do not know what I know or could know what I know. [/quote]
Of course, I don’t know what you know. I do however know WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW!
That is my point!!!

And that category is the unfamiliarity with the internal approaches in question. Your own clueless posts stand testimony to what you don’t know!

LOL, the MA world and this forum is full of people who have been “around the block”. Yet you are not familiar with a particular Internal approach (and probably many others as well). Instead of admitting it you guys either deny its validity or pretend to know it. LOL

What is so difficult about saying “hey I don’t know, I will look further into it” or even “Hey I don’t know about this methodology and I don’t care as I like pumping iron”. Yet, no you guys either ridicule the concept with clueless comments and in the next minute turn around and pretend familiarity with it. LOL

Well statetments like that prove that you are way in above your head. You have no notion or understanding of the internals. There is nothing wrong with that per se, that is, if you don’t go around pretending knowledge and understanding that you don’t have.

IF you don’t want to enhance your knowledge outside your box, then that is fine too, just stick to what you know and grow in that area. It is all fair and square. However, don’t pretend that you know. I find that very irritating!

LOL, yes the forum is full of people like you, they know everything and they have seen every thing.

Feel free to say that you are proficient in everything you have ever trained as it will be as credible as your previous statement. Besides, all the cross trainers here know everything (including the every Internal TCMA methodology..lOL,LOL,LOL) and are proficient in everything.

Look, let me make this simple as it is not that complicated. When you discuss any methodology, there will two CATEGORIES of people. Those who know of the methodology and those who DON’T! In this case you and most of your cross training buddies fall into the latter category! It is that simple!

If the methodology discussed was to do with Olympic weight training then I would be in the latter category. Again simple. You don’t want to understand because your ego and pride don’t let you. It is a case of “how dare he say that I don’t know about such and such internal priniciples, I have been around the block you know..” lol.

And believe me it shows.:wink:

26

[QUOTE=Boston Bagua;972743]HW,

you really come across as someone that talks way too much and shows nothing of the things you talk about.

Hence most people here think you are a mere mouthboxer.

Someday it would be good to meet up and see if you can match your mouth with your skills.

My door is always open.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, you missed my point. All of this started when I mentioned an INTERNAL METHODOLOGY which is in the curriculum of few Chow Gar lineages where there is no use of weight training as we know it in the Western sense.

Actually, the subject was brought up by another poster in the “Dynamic Tension in forms” thread by a poster named David. His approach was ridiculed by this forum’s clueless ( because they acted that way) cross trainers.

I entered the thread in David’s support. Then the same thing happened to me. If you have been following all this then you will know that other posters have been able to discuss this matter with me giving their own insights and inputs.

The problem seems to be that many who criticized the approach of developing tendo/muscle power and strengh without using weights seem to be unfamiliar (to say the least) with the methodology that they so readily criticized and ridiculed.

So, I was not here boasting about my fighting prowess or challenging people. I don’t know where you people get this stuff.

The simple question was this : Did the people who ridiculed and criticized this Chow Gar methodology had any understanding of it at all?

This got under those very people’s skin and we have been running around circles since then because they don’t want to admit that they criticized a methodology which they had no idea existed, let alone understood!

Do you use the so called “Western” weight training approach with your Bagua? I ask because there are Bagua masters who don’t.

27

HW,

I practice old school Bagua training with oversized weapons, Iron Vest(60 pounds) and all manner of heavy things that I carry and walk with to develop my structure the old way.

I also use resistance bands, KBs to help me be the strongest I can be within a totally functional capacity.

Just doing old school training and ignoring modern methods is silly. See what methods work for you and train them.

28

No one ridiculed David, people disagreed and some called into question his understanding of strength training and his understanding of anatomy and perhaps in an off- colour way, but David, the person, was not ridiculed.

29

With all due respect, you should stop acting like a wounded sore butt!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane76
no it mean just what it states… you do not know what I know or could know what I know.

Of course, I don’t know what you know. I do however know WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW!
That is my point!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
I never stated anything and thats the point. YOU LUMP EVERYONE INTO A CATAGORY.

And that category is the unfamiliarity with the internal approaches in question. Your own clueless posts stand testimony to what you don’t know!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
you know how many times you have stated that very statement? And I’ll state, there is a lot of MA stuff out there that is not in books and DVDS and not taught openly. I do not know it all but I will say i’ve been around the block enough to know many different things about different MA’s including kung fu.

LOL, the MA world and this forum is full of people who have been “around the block”. Yet you are not familiar with a particular Internal approach (and probably many others as well). Instead of admitting it you guys either deny its validity or pretend to know it. LOL

What is so difficult about saying “hey I don’t know, I will look further into it” or even “Hey I don’t know about this methodology and I don’t care as I like pumping iron”. Yet, no you guys either ridicule the concept with clueless comments and in the next minute turn around and pretend familiarity with it. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
as for concepts above my head… lol… like i stated before we only have 2 arms and 2 legs

Well statetments like that prove that you are way in above your head. You have no notion or understanding of the internals. There is nothing wrong with that per se, that is, if you don’t go around pretending knowledge and understanding that you don’t have.

IF you don’t want to enhance your knowledge outside your box, then that is fine too, just stick to what you know and grow in that area. It is all fair and square. However, don’t pretend that you know. I find that very irritating!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
until we grow other appendages then i’ve probably seen the gist of it all.

LOL, yes the forum is full of people like you, they know everything and they have seen every thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
Not saying I’m proficient at it but I’ve been around it.

Feel free to say that you are proficient in everything you have ever trained as it will be as credible as your previous statement. Besides, all the cross trainers here know everything (including the every Internal TCMA methodology..lOL,LOL,LOL) and are proficient in everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
great like i said before. But don’t PUT EVERYONE ELSE INTO A CATAGORY. and i’ll say the same to you don’t be blind to concepts and directions that other arts teach.

Look, let me make this simple as it is not that complicated. When you discuss any methodology, there will two CATEGORIES of people. Those who know of the methodology and those who DON’T! In this case you and most of your cross training buddies fall into the latter category! It is that simple!

If the methodology discussed was to do with Olympic weight training then I would be in the latter category. Again simple. You don’t want to understand because your ego and pride don’t let you. It is a case of “how dare he say that I don’t know about such and such internal priniciples, I have been around the block you know..” lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
and cross train into many east west south and north variants.

And believe me it shows.

BLAH BLAH BLAH…

you know if this internal kung fu “actually exists” which it doesn’t, I would not want anything to do with it because it’s probably filled with people like you. full of themselves and arrogant beyond belief. you guys probably have your own little club filled with “closet masters” good for you maybe one day you’ll actually come out of that “closet”.

you preach the same sh1t over and over about cross training people and how worthless it is and then spin it 20 different ways. you could be a cross dressing midget looking for a night on the town and i would be like i’m cool with that. But no you point your high finger at everyone else on here stating that your pen1s is bigger and better than anyone elses.

Do you have something against people who lift weights or something? your always “cataloging” them like you do every one else in the meat head department along with any grappling art or actually anything you believe not to be this grand high internal “kung fu”

I bet your the guy at the kwoon bowing and scraping the floor before the great grand master of some said style and paying for it by taking out a 2nd morgage thinking the whole time that you’ve found this secret form of martial arts that will stop all end all that no one in the world has ever seen.
but in reality you’ve never tested your so called MA and never actually had a resistant opponent step in front of you. Never felt the pain of punishment and the triumph of winning.

AM I close on this? probably more than you’ll ever admit:rolleyes:

30

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;972754]No one ridiculed David, [/quote]

Well these are some of Frost’s “insights” in response to some of David’s comments, no doubt using his Olympic weight training credentials to justify his comments:

Little did he know that he himself was going to provide a lot more laughs for me and other practitioners of this methodology, no doubt…Lol.

And again:

Here it is you Sanjuro_ronin, in response to one of David’s posts where he tried to explain more of the methodology that most of you were clueless to:

Yes, forget what your sifu has taught you and is teaching you about the distinct principles and the hard to find info contained in your lineage and style and buy a book (and of course listen to our clueless ramblings). LOL

Ironically, you are right there and you speak for the rest of your cross training buddies on that thread, in that you wouldn’t know where to begin.

Here is another when you react to David’s explanation of certain Chow Gar ideas regarding muscle building:

Well, apparently people who actually practice certain internal TCMAs that you have no knowledge of, do believe this.:wink:

Here is Frost again, Lol:

It is the good old, and now well known, tactic, “if he knows more than us or is talking about subjects that we are clueless about, then he is trolling”.

Of course, he wasn’t ridiculed.:rolleyes:

By the way, good to have you back. Your last couple of posts to me freaked me out. What is this with “Dearest HW…” and “peace” and so on. You put me off my stride. You really did.

Don’t tell me that after having mastered all the external and internal MAs on the face of this planet now you have decide to cross train to be a Zen grand master or something like that?:confused::smiley:

HW108

31

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;972765]Well these are some of Frost’s “insights” in response to some of David’s comments, no doubt using his Olympic weight training credentials to justify his comments:

Little did he know that he himself was going to provide a lot more laughs for me and other practitioners of this methodology, no doubt…Lol.

And again:

Here it is you Sanjuro_ronin, in response to one of David’s posts where he tried to explain more of the methodology that most of you were clueless to:

Yes, forget what your sifu has taught you and is teaching you about the distinct principles and the hard to find info contained in your lineage and style and buy a book (and of course listen to our clueless ramblings). LOL

Ironically, you are right there and you speak for the rest of your cross training buddies on that thread, in that you wouldn’t know where to begin.

Here is another when you react to David’s explanation of certain Chow Gar ideas regarding muscle building:

Well, apparently people who actually practice certain internal TCMAs that you have no knowledge of, do believe this.:wink:

Here is Frost again, Lol:

It is the good old, and now well known, tactic, “if he knows more than us or is talking about subjects that we are clueless about, then he is trolling”.

Of course, he wasn’t ridiculed.:rolleyes:

By the way, good to have you back. Your last couple of posts to me freaked me out. What is this with “Dearest HW…” and “peace” and so on. You put me off my stride. You really did.

Don’t tell me that after having mastered all the external and internal MAs on the face of this planet now you have decide to cross train to be a Zen grand master or something like that?:confused::smiley:

HW108[/QUOTE]

Thanks for proving my point, David was NOT ridiculed, his views were ( if that).
That saved me some searching time, very sweet of you.
:smiley:

32

[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;972759]BLAH BLAH BLAH…

you know if this internal kung fu “actually exists” which it doesn’t, I would not want anything to do with it because it’s probably filled with people like you. full of themselves and arrogant beyond belief. you guys probably have your own little club filled with “closet masters” good for you maybe one day you’ll actually come out of that “closet”.

you preach the same sh1t over and over about cross training people and how worthless it is and then spin it 20 different ways. you could be a cross dressing midget looking for a night on the town and i would be like i’m cool with that. But no you point your high finger at everyone else on here stating that your pen1s is bigger and better than anyone elses.

Do you have something against people who lift weights or something? your always “cataloging” them like you do every one else in the meat head department along with any grappling art or actually anything you believe not to be this grand high internal “kung fu”

I bet your the guy at the kwoon bowing and scraping the floor before the great grand master of some said style and paying for it by taking out a 2nd morgage thinking the whole time that you’ve found this secret form of martial arts that will stop all end all that no one in the world has ever seen.
but in reality you’ve never tested your so called MA and never actually had a resistant opponent step in front of you. Never felt the pain of punishment and the triumph of winning. [/quote]

LOL…Christ all mighty! I have spent days “discussing” a rare internal methodology with a guy who is one of the “dime a dozen” cross trainers in this forum. And now he comes out and in not so many words says that he doesn’t know what internals are. LOL, LOL and as my Olympic weight training forum colleague says, LOL just LOL…

NO, no I admit it, you are close to making me laugh my self to death..LOL, lol,lol,lol..

33

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;972767]Thanks for proving my point, David was NOT ridiculed, his views were ( if that).
That saved me some searching time, very sweet of you.
:D[/QUOTE]

I guess you treated my evidence of you and your friends’ ridicule of David the same way you took my evidence that showed you to be clueless about Chow Gar methodology.:smiley:

34

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;972770]I guess you treated my evidence of you and your friends’ ridicule of David the same way you took my evidence that showed you to be clueless about Chow Gar methodology.:D[/QUOTE]

Yes, you were wrong on both accounts.
Its ok though, to err is human and to forgive, divine and I certainly forgive you my little one.

35

Thank you for the information.

[QUOTE=Boston Bagua;972752]HW,

I practice old school Bagua training with oversized weapons, Iron Vest(60 pounds) and all manner of heavy things that I carry and walk with to develop my structure the old way.

I also use resistance bands, KBs to help me be the strongest I can be within a totally functional capacity.[/quote]

There may be more than one old school Bagua practice and methodology.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

A good read. It demonstrates how deep these styles are and how immense the TCMA field is.

It is not about ignoring modern methods. It is more about making sure that any modern methods that you use are relevant to qualities that your system aims to achieve, making sure that any adopted methodology does not negate what you are trying to achieve.

What I said is very simple. The particular lineage of Chow Gar that I am discussing does not use strength building weight training as this negates many of the effects of their internal approach. On top of that they build potent strength and shock power without using weights.

That is what I have been talking about with people who had no knowledge of htis methodology. Everything else was added by others.

36

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;972771]Yes, you were wrong on both accounts.
Its ok though, to err is human and to forgive, divine and I certainly forgive you my little one.[/QUOTE]

Good then you say I was wrong implying that you are familiar with the concepts I was talking about.

Now, perhaps you can explain to all of us why weight training negates what Chow Gar aims to achieve and in what way. What is the main principle behind the Chow gar body development philosophy. What is the main principle behind Chow gar’s (none-weight trained) power and strength.

Feel free to run along and refer to David’s post in the other thread. There might be enough there to save you skin, but then perhaps not, we will see. You will probably ask Dale Dugas as well. It doesn’t matter as I will be happy if you walk away from this with a more enhanced TCMA knowledge.
HW108

37

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;972774]

Now, perhaps you can explain to all of us why weight training negates what Chow Gar aims to achieve and in what way. What is the main principle behind the Chow gar body development philosophy. What is the main principle behind Chow gar’s (none-weight trained) power and strength.

[/QUOTE]

Sure, which ST protocol and which of Chow gars “aims” are you referring to?

38

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;972775]Sure, which ST protocol and which of Chow gars “aims” are you referring to?[/QUOTE]

Christ! It is a simple question.

It just goes to show the level of some you guy’s Internal understanding which prohibits you from understanding the question, let alone, give an answer.

It is simple, if you are familiar with the style and concepts then you will understand the question.

Not understanding even the question does not reflect well on you, but do go on pretending to know about the internal aspects of this particular lineage of the style and its negative relationship with Western style weight training.

Of course, that will raise the question about the contents of your forum correspondence with David and myself!

HW108

39

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;972781]Christ! It is a simple question.

It just goes to show the level of some you guy’s Internal understanding which prohibits you from understanding the question, let alone, give an answer.

It is simple, if you are familiar with the style and concepts then you will understand the question.

Not understanding even the question does not reflect well on you, but do go on pretending to know about the internal aspects of this particular lineage of the style and its negative relationship with Western style weight training.

Of course, that will raise the question about the contents of your forum correspondence with David and myself!

HW108[/QUOTE]

Yep, I didn’t think you’d know the answer to my question, you are so transparent !
LOL !

Do you even realize that vast types of ST there are? which one would you like me to comment on?
It is a simple question that I ask you, WHICH WEIGHT TRAINING PROTOCOL are you referring to?

While Chow gar is NOT the SPM I study, nor did I ever say it was, though I am familar with it, I will endveour to answer a SPECIFIC question, IF you have one.

You said

why weight training negates what Chow Gar aims to achieve and in what way.

I asked WHICH weight training method you were referring to.

Such a simple question and yet, I am still waiting…

40

By the way Xiao:
A view on weight training and taiji:
http://www.patiencetaichi.com/public/212.cfm

a few parts:
Professor Cheng said not to lift weights. I suppose in his time there was only two ways to weight lift, 1. to lift heavy weights and do it until your arm burned with lactic acid. 2. To lift light weight many more reps until again, you burned from lactic acid. This, you will see from what follows, is detrimental to proficiency in sensitivity at push hands. It is detrimental to the practice of T’ai Chi, but we will discuss that at another time. I do not know if lifting light weights and avoiding the burn was a generally known way to practice in Professor Cheng’s time.

and:
How do you train to this level of sensitivity? Weightlifting is necessary in our modern society for sure, or else your muscles will atrophy over time. This is not a goal that we want to have happen. In Professor Cheng’s world, only the richest and most effete snob could avoid the physical stimulation of muscles that nowadays every computer nerd and obsessed video game player can easily achieve.

The whole article is quite good.