For Xiao3Meng4

[Hardwork108]

I wish the moderator had noticed that there was a kung fu discussion going on between Xiao3 Meng4 and myself, before closing the “I think forms suck” thread in the Southern Forum!

I just wanted to respond and continue our discussion as it is an actual TCMA discussion with many interesting points.

[QUOTE=Xiao3 Meng4;972474]Something to remember with that example is that although chimps have bigger, stronger joints and smaller muscles than humans, they are in peak health, they are MUSCULAR, and they have mass - adults can weigh 150+lbs.

Mass is an important factor no matter how you’re training. Some Martial Artists like to keep their mass around their Dan Tian ( ); as long as they have strong joints, good structure, and smart tactics, then they should be ok against most people. I prefer to distribute mass as muscle: muscle is healthier metabolically, and a certain degree of muscularity complements and enhances the joints’ capabilities… and there are no fat chimps.[/quote]
You must remember that chimps are muscular not because of weightlifting but because of their NATURAL day to day activity combined with their natural body make up. Even in captivity where these animals don’t get their usual exercise (unless our friend Frost slips into their cage to give them personal Olympic weight training classes…whoops sorry :() a full grown chimp can still destroy a human being.

However, looking at humans one can see that our day to day activities do not give us comparable abilities to chimps. The modern life style can take some blame for this but, we have too much body tension, we don’t breath properly and lack body unity. Blindly adding weight training to this equasion is not going to help the matter either.

The internal training attempts to firstly adjust those factors before going any deeper through a specific and apparently not so well understood methodology.

So what is the “secret” of chimps? IMHO, it is their relaxed and unified body movements. I.e. Their body structure is unified and linked. Their natural strength will help of course. However, IMHO, it is still relaxed and flowing strength. Look at chimps doing any activity and you will see this.

@Xiao3 MENG4

I disagree. This forum is a perfect place to discuss training risks/benefits.

LOL, You are kidding right?

Il probably get more relevant input if I discuss this with chimps than a lot of the “experts” here, after all, the chimps have their strength, body unity and relaxed movements without a day’s weight lifting in their “curriculum”. Hence they will know what I am talking about…LOL.

Seriously, some of this stuff is not talked about in detail outside the school. I am sure that you appreciate that we are not discussing kickboxing here and that there are aspects in your own TCMA training that you do not discuss publicly.

@XIao3 Meng4

In what way? Is there a concern that training specific muscles (such as the biceps) in isolation will detract from functional unity?

There is.

@Xiao3_Meng4

Modern athletic training has addressed this issue by making as much of the training as FUNCTIONAL as possible. That is, muscles are not trained in isolation: they are trained together in as close to an environment and situation as the real thing. Modern athletic training is much different than it used to be. Today it can include joint realignment and strengthening, core realignment and strengthening, Nervous system refinement, nutrition, functional plyometrics, functional weight training, stretching/relaxation, play practice, visualization, counselling, and rest.

IMHO, I get all of the above and much more from my internal training. Furthermore, modern athletic training are unaware of the deeper and unusual TCMA training principles.

@Xiao3_Meng4

Everyone gets ideas.

Those who know or have at least a valid point of reference will get RELEVANT ideas.

@Xiao3_Meng4

Most of the people I discuss with on here train Kung Fu. I enjoy discussing with them, as well as with non-kung fu people.

I would respectfully disagree and make the correction saying that most people here ARE non-kung fu people, no matter what they say in their profiles or what they believe they have been practicing for the last zillion years. Of course, that does not say that a conversation with them won’t turn out “interesting”…Lol.

@Xiao3_Meng4

Seriously, you should start a thread specifically about sinew/tendon changing methods, what kinds there are, and who practices them. The one I know is actually a Daoist Yi Jin Jing method called “Heavy Hands.”

I am not qualified to start such a thread. My knowledge is limited to what I practice in my level of practice and even some of that stuff is not to be discussed publicly, anyway. So, I do have some material but not enough to start a thread.

@XIao3 Meng4

travelling/moving wreaks havoc on traditional martial arts training.

I can appreciate that as I have been through that too but some people (not talking about you) promote cross training and its “eternal” benefits and inform us that even the Pope cross trains. Then when they are shown valid weaknesses of this approach in relation to understanding deep TCMA principles, they turn around and tell you, “Oh, it was because of traveling/moving, but I still know everything”, LOL

@Xiao3_Meng4

I’m sure this happens. I’m also sure that there are traditionalists who may chase away posters by behaving similarly to what you say above. On the list of first impressions, Physical skill is often trumped by Communications skill.

I have yet to see a Traditionalist chase away an MMA-ist or cross trainer from this forum (LOL), even though this is mainly a Kung Fu forum, which should kind of give priority to the TCMA methodology in favor of the MMA/cross trainers. LOL

@Xiao3Meng4

Ego or not, I recommend EVERYONE gets counselling (I did.)

I don’t believe that it is a question of counselling. Besides, I really believe that there are a few here who are beyond any therapy.

It is more a question of morals and dignity that comes with a decent up bringing. If you don’t get that up to a certain age then I don’t believe that counselling is going to be of much help.

@Xiao3Meng4

And trains hard. And keeps an open mind. And respects others. Everyone.

My mind is more open than you think. I train as hard as I am able to depending on my life style etc.

As far as respect goes, then sometimes I find it hard to respect ignorance based on arrogance and arrogance based on ignorance. Others in the “I think forms are useless” thread may say the same about me but most of them will do so through their own insecurity which is literally “written” all over that very thread!

@Xiao3_Meng4

To be fair, you all weren’t being very clear. Maybe there was too much defensiveness and aggression on everyone’s part.

I disagree. They knew what I was trying to say. They knew it before I had said it as this started in the “dynamic tension in forms” thread in the Southern forum. The subject was brought up by “David” who is a Chow Gar practitioner. Go there and see how he was treated by the clueless majority here.

@XIao3Meng4

My grandmother died of Alzheimers. About 2 years before she died, she entered a phase of the disease which gave her a rare type of aphasia. She could speak clearly, she just didn’t “make sense.” The nurses and my family thought she had completely lost touch with reality. Turns out, she knew exactly what she meant, she just couldn’t say it.
“I’m a double agent,” she proudly exclaimed one day.
“Oh really,” I said.
“Yes,” she said proudly, “In the morning, the Catholics are everywhere, so I pretend to be a Catholic and work for the Catholics. Then in the afternoon they leave and the Protestants come in and I pretend to be a Protestant, and work for them! BUT, I tell them what the Catholics are up to, and then the next day I tell the Catholics what the Protestants are up to! I’m a double agent!”

“Uh-huh,” I said. Then it dawned on me. She was talking about the nurses shifts.

Sometimes, instead of just dismissing someone as crazy, ignorant, or lacking in knowledge, take a moment to ask yourself how what they’re saying COULD constructively benefit the discussion, and ask yourself how what you say possibly COULD be interpreted by others. Clear comprehension and clear communication work together.

I have repeated the same relatively simple statement (even if the concept is complicated) more than a dozen times. Clarifying myself further every time. Now look at some of the other posts directed at me to see their level of “clear comprehension and clear communication”, remembering that at least one of these posters is referred to as “sifu”,Lol. Again, you couldn’t make this stuff up! Lol.

HW108

[sanjuro_ronin]

I apologize for locking that thread, I didn’t want it to degenerate any further with personal attacks.

Although, this speaks volumes:

I am not qualified to start such a thread. My knowledge is limited to what I practice in my level of practice and even some of that stuff is not to be discussed publicly, anyway. So, I do have some material but not enough to start a thread.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;972561]I apologize for locking that thread, I didn’t want it to degenerate any further with personal attacks.[/quote]
Then you should have warned Lkfmdc, the “sifu” and Frost, our resident Olympic weigh training gold medalist.

@sanjuro_ronin

Although, this speaks volumes:

Yes it does, ironically about both of our characters- not to mention the other “kung fu” champions of this forum.

The manner in which some of you guys mock honesty and modesty is very revealing about your own lack of that same quality!

That statement was an honest statement about my ability being limited to discussing aspects of tendon training that are unfamiliar to me. I know that being clueless about a given TCMA subject area never stopped most of you cross trainers and MMA-ists discussing, criticizing and ridiculing it, but then Jack of All Trades will be jack of all trades. LOl,lol,lol.

So again, that statement was an honest reference to the limits of my knowledge regarding tendon changing methodology (which is evidently still more than most of you guys, put together as demonstrated - more by yourselves and your clueless comments than by anything I said, LOL - in the “I think forms are useless thread”).

Of course, you are always welcome to borrow and use my statement any time you please to honestly demonstrate your own limited knowledge of various TCMA aspects of training, because “cross training” in dignity and humbleness, may do some of you guys some good (eventually).

Let my statement be a lesson to many of the “know it alls” in this forum!

HW108

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fact is, you don’t know half the things you profess to have SOME experience in.

And this constant attempts to degrade other people’s superiour knowledge of the things you WISH you knew, well, that’s just childish.

I doubt that you would be able to even begin to understand the TRUE MA knowledge that I possess.

Perhaps that is your source of envy?

I am sure that eventually the truth will come to you and you will understand.

Till them, don’t be a hater of those that are better and more well trained, envy is poison for the soul.

[lkfmdc]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;972584]Fact is, you don’t know half the things you profess to have SOME experience in.

And this constant attempts to degrade other people’s superiour knowledge of the things you WISH you knew, well, that’s just childish.

I doubt that you would be able to even begin to understand the TRUE MA knowledge that I possess.

Perhaps that is your source of envy?

I am sure that eventually the truth will come to you and you will understand.

Till them, don’t be a hater of those that are better and more well trained, envy is poison for the soul.[/QUOTE]

too long for a sig but QFT none the less

[Boston_Bagua]

Excellent response Paul.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;972584]Fact is, you don’t know half the things you profess to have SOME experience in.[/quote]
the fact is that if I don’t know something then I am man enough to admit it!
Not run around in circles like a headless chicken like most of you “I know everything, because I am a cross trainer”, kick boxers.

@sanjuro_ronin

And this constant attempts to degrade other people’s superiour knowledge of the things you WISH you knew, well, that’s just childish.

No one is degrading your “superior” knowledge from years of hard training while being Jack of all trades. I am sure that there is a lot you have been exposed to and that you know that I don’t. The point is that I am man enough to admit that!

However, you are not man enough to admit that you are clueless about certain aspects of Chow Gar training that you have absolutely no knowledge of. You proved that lack of knowledge and so did your other buddies. There were only two people who attempted to discuss the matter without bringing in Olympic weight training methodology or Goju ryu kata, for gods sake!

@sanjuro_ronin

I doubt that you would be able to even begin to understand the TRUE MA knowledge that I possess.

I will understand when I see the Hollywood bio pic about your legendary martial path. Lol.

@sanjuro_ronin

Perhaps that is your source of envy?

IMHO, you are too full of yourself. Even your forum name is pretentious. You don’t admit to being clueless about any TCMA area of study, even when you are demonstrated to be hopelessly clueless. Yet, you mock me for honestly admitting limited knowledge in a certain area, ironically in the same area that I still proved myself more knowledgable than you!

Now you assume that you are the subject of my envy. LOL.

I have news for you. I am not an envious person and have never been, not even as a child. If I was ever to be envious then I would direct that envy to people who are experts in the area of martial arts that interest and fascinate me, that means AUTHENTIC TCMA-ists and not disilusional cross training kick boxers who claim authentic kung fu knowledge.

I have said this before, I believe you to be a decent fighter but that does not prove kung fu knowledge or prowess, given your MA background that include a dozen arts that have nothing to do with(and sometimes contradict) the higher aspects of TCMAs.

@sanjuro_ronin

I am sure that eventually the truth will come to you and you will understand.

The truth about you has been with me for a long time.

@sanjuro_ronin

Till them, don’t be a hater of those that are better and more well trained,

And I am not a hater of those. Actually, I am an admirer of such people, even if they are so in arts that I don’t practice. That would in theory include you as well.

I only “hate” them when they make clueless comments, criticisms and even ridicule training methodologies that they are not familiar with. It is all there for everyone to see in the “Dynamic Tension in forms” thread! [Why start a thread when you are not going to accept any new info coming in? ]

When having been “enlightened” they still don´ t admit ignorance and go on to take their “better” and more “well trained” butts and hide under a proverbial rock of dis-information, deceit and lies!

It is very sad that none of the original people (including yourself) are any the wiser regarding the methodology revealed here by the poster, David, in the “Dynamic tension in forms” thread.

None of you agree with that methodology but at the same time none of you are familiar with it either and none of you seem to want to get familiar with it because first of all you need to admit to not knowing anything about it and then you need to empty your glass! it is just sad!

@sanjuro_ronin

envy is poison for the soul.

You should add the word “insecurity” to that statement and repeat-read it every night before you go to bed. Actually, you can send a copy to Lkfmdc and ask him to the same!

HW108

[Xiao3_Meng4]

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;972556]
You must remember that chimps are muscular not because of weightlifting but because of their NATURAL day to day activity combined with their natural body make up. [/quote]

I’m keeping this in mind, don’t worry. Wild Chimps are highly active - foraging, moving through the jungle on all four legs (quadripedal movement,) climbing trees, and eating very good food. My point is, they build muscle through constant, quadripedal bodyweight activity.

Even in captivity where these animals don’t get their usual exercise a full grown chimp can still destroy a human being.

A captive chimp is but a shadow of its wild cousin. I agree, it’s not as fit. I’d say that a captive chimp could, as you say, “destroy” an average urbanite, but I’m going to go ahead and argue that an athletic human stands a good chance against a captive chimp.

However, looking at humans one can see that our day to day activities do not give us comparable abilities to chimps. The modern life style can take some blame for this

Agreed. Modern, post-industrial urban life has allowed people to exploit their lazy gene to the max. Most people do not compare to the physique of their ancestors.

we have too much body tension, we don’t breath properly and lack body unity.

Most of this can be chalked up to lifestyle again. High stress, prohibitive laws and social norms, and finding the TV/computer/Xbox from an early age.

Blindly adding weight training to this equasion is not going to help the matter either.

Anyone who blindly adds anything, whether it be weight training or tendon changing, runs a risk of hurting themselves. That said, if someone wants to improve their health by lifting weights, they can and will, provided they do it carefully. Just like anything.

The internal training attempts to firstly adjust those factors before going any deeper through a specific and apparently not so well understood methodology.

Same with modern athletics. Realignment and relaxation first, stabilization/connectedness second, force (mass x velocity) 3rd.

So what is the “secret” of chimps? IMHO, it is their relaxed and unified body movements. I.e. Their body structure is unified and linked.

A chimps’ relaxed and unified movement is attributable to two factors. 1, a clear mind; 2, constant quadripedal movement.

Quadripedal movement - the unified, connected movement of the four limbs - is something we as humans often neglect. In our brains, we separate our actions. Getting back to a point where we’re always moving quadripedally (even if we’re standing on 2 limbs only,) is a great way to develop connected muscularity. Unfortunately, because we don’t hang around in trees anymore, our upper limbs generally require some kind of extra stimulation. Not necessarily weight training (although, done with body unity, that’s fine too,) but some kind of activity that requires prolonged use of arm movement - preferably with resistance of some kind (crawling, climbing, lifting, etc.) I find that both “internal” and “external” systems address this, just in different ways. The bottom line is body unity, though, and everyone I’ve talked with understands the importance of that on this forum.

Seriously, some of this stuff is not talked about in detail outside the school. I am sure that you appreciate that we are not discussing kickboxing here and that there are aspects in your own TCMA training that you do not discuss publicly.

That’s too bad that there’s a gag order on you. All of my training is available for discussion. I try to leave no question unanswered, and I’m always happy to share what I know, what I’m working on, or have recently discovered/understood.

IMHO, I get all of the above and much more from my internal training.

Furthermore, modern athletic training are unaware of the deeper and unusual TCMA training principles.

Modern athletic training is not necessarily unaware of these things. Paul Chek, the founder of the CHEK program (an elite modern athletics program,) actually incorporates Qigong principles and sinew/tendon changing into his training regimens. There’s remarkably little weight training (for example, in one of his programs you do one sit-up a day.) He’s one of the “post-moderns” in the sense that he draws both from traditional and modern sources for his curriculum.

I would respectfully disagree and make the correction saying that most people here ARE non-kung fu people, no matter what they say in their profiles or what they believe they have been practicing for the last zillion years. Of course, that does not say that a conversation with them won’t turn out “interesting”…Lol.

You’re disagreeing with what, here… the fact that I enjoy talking to most everyone??? There’s no correction to be made, it was my opinion. Why not make the mental choice to turn “interesting” into “fruitful?” It’s in your power to do so.

I am not qualified to start such a thread. My knowledge is limited to what I practice in my level of practice and even some of that stuff is not to be discussed publicly, anyway. So, I do have some material but not enough to start a thread.

People start threads when they have questions, or when they want to share something. I certainly don’t know everything, but that doesn’t stop me from engaging in productive conversation! I’m not saying go and start an expert thread on sinew/tendon change (expert threads! LOL!), I’m saying start a thread which is open and inquisitive about the practice and its variations. I guarantee you’ll have more productive input than you think you will.

I can appreciate that as I have been through that too but some people (not talking about you) promote cross training and its “eternal” benefits

As is their right and their pleasure. If you can promote mono-stylistic training, they’re certainly entitled to promote what they see as beneficial. Of course, the less derogatory an contemptuous a viewpoint is, the more likely it is that people will choose to discuss with an open mind. Leave the verbal barbs at home, I say.

I have yet to see a Traditionalist chase away an MMA-ist or cross trainer from this forum (LOL), even though this is mainly a Kung Fu forum, which should kind of give priority to the TCMA methodology in favor of the MMA/cross trainers. LOL

Ever wonder why MMA/cross trainers have an interest in Kung Fu? Do you really think it’s just so they can bash it?

I don’t believe that it is a question of counselling. Besides, I really believe that there are a few here who are beyond any therapy.

Unhelpful.

It is more a question of morals and dignity that comes with a decent up bringing. If you don’t get that up to a certain age then I don’t believe that counselling is going to be of much help. As far as respect goes, then sometimes I find it hard to respect ignorance based on arrogance and arrogance based on ignorance. Others in the “I think forms are useless” thread may say the same about me but most of them will do so through their own insecurity which is literally “written” all over that very thread!

Have you ever heard of projection? It usually coincides with the “methinks the lady doth protest too much” phenomenon… and yes, I’m pointing out that, compared to the actual severity of the situation, you are protesting excessively - each of your replies to me has included a complaint about how others have treated you, or a jab against someone not even involved in our conversation. Can you find some way to let all of that go and just move on?

I find it difficult to respect arrogance, no matter what the root cause. Just because someone has skill or knowledge with others don’t have doesn’t give them the right to be arrogant. Likewise, arrogance towards ignorance isn’t constructive, and reflects the ignorance of the arrogant person more than the “ignorant” person themselves.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=Xiao3 Meng4;972601]I’m keeping this in mind, don’t worry. Wild Chimps are highly active - foraging, moving through the jungle on all four legs (quadripedal movement,) climbing trees, and eating very good food. My point is, they build muscle through constant, quadripedal bodyweight activity.[/quote]
If their using their own body weight to build strength and they do so by moving their bodies in a “unified” and relaxed manner, then that would parallel some internal principles.

@Xiao3Meng4

A captive chimp is but a shadow of its wild cousin. I agree, it’s not as fit. I’d say that a captive chimp could, as you say, “destroy” an average urbanite, but I’m going to go ahead and argue that an athletic human stands a good chance against a captive chimp.

You do have a valid point there. Of course we do appreciate the other factors behind the “untrained/unfit” chimp’s power.

@XIao3 Meng4

Anyone who blindly adds anything, whether it be weight training or tendon changing, runs a risk of hurting themselves.

Yet there were people in the “Dynamic tension in forms” thread who would blindly recommend weight training to a Chow Gar practitioner. Their numbers included various cross trainers with decades of experience, including one with credentials in Olympic weight training!

Do you see where I am coming from?

@Xiao3 Meng4

That said, if someone wants to improve their health by lifting weights, they can and will, provided they do it carefully. Just like anything.

I agree totally!

@Xiao3 Meng4

Same with modern athletics. Realignment and relaxation first, stabilization/connectedness second, force (mass x velocity) 3rd.

I agree except that IMHO the internal “connectedness” can be of a deeper level.

@Xiao3 Meng4

A chimps’ relaxed and unified movement is attributable to two factors. 1, a clear mind; 2, constant quadripedal movement.

Constant “connected” quadripedal movement.

@Xiao3Meng4

Quadripedal movement - the unified, connected movement of the four limbs - is something we as humans often neglect. In our brains, we separate our actions. Getting back to a point where we’re always moving quadripedally (even if we’re standing on 2 limbs only,) is a great way to develop connected muscularity. Unfortunately, because we don’t hang around in trees anymore, our upper limbs generally require some kind of extra stimulation. Not necessarily weight training (although, done with body unity, that’s fine too,) but some kind of activity that requires prolonged use of arm movement - preferably with resistance of some kind (crawling, climbing, lifting, etc.) I find that both “internal” and “external” systems address this, just in different ways. The bottom line is body unity, though, and everyone I’ve talked with understands the importance of that on this forum.

Unfortunately for many, there are many levels to body unity. The tai chi body unity is not the same as a boxers. A boxer’s body unity is not the same as Chow Gar’s. Inquisitive minds would do well to investigate these differences in detail.

@Xiao3 Meng4

That’s too bad that there’s a gag order on you.

You could put it that way. I don’t resent the “gag order” as I understand and agree with it.

@Xiao3 Meng4

All of my training is available for discussion. I try to leave no question unanswered, and I’m always happy to share what I know, what I’m working on, or have recently discovered/understood.

Understood and fair enough.

@Xiao3 Meng4

Modern athletic training is not necessarily unaware of these things. Paul Chek, the founder of the CHEK program (an elite modern athletics program,) actually incorporates Qigong principles and sinew/tendon changing into his training regimens. There’s remarkably little weight training (for example, in one of his programs you do one sit-up a day.) He’s one of the “post-moderns” in the sense that he draws both from traditional and modern sources for his curriculum.

It is good to know that while we have people telling us to throw away old TCMA methodologies, there are other modern athletes that investigate and learn from them.

It is funny that you mention sit ups, as they also negate certain qualities that one tries to achieve in Chow Gar (the lineage that I am familiar with).

@Xiao3Meng4

You’re disagreeing with what, here… the fact that I enjoy talking to most everyone??? There’s no correction to be made, it was my opinion. Why not make the mental choice to turn “interesting” into “fruitful?” It’s in your power to do so.

You forgot to add hilarious to the equasion. Lol

Seriously, though at the end of the day this just a forum and we can talk to anyone. There is no harm as at best we can learn something new and at worst have a laugh or two (or three).

@Xiao3 Meng4

People start threads when they have questions, or when they want to share something. I certainly don’t know everything, but that doesn’t stop me from engaging in productive conversation! I’m not saying go and start an expert thread on sinew/tendon change (expert threads! LOL!), I’m saying start a thread which is open and inquisitive about the practice and its variations. I guarantee you’ll have more productive input than you think you will.

LOL. I can imagine someone starting an expert thread on tendon/sinew in this forum and the resulting wounded egos, exploding heads and blood and brains all over the place. It would be inhuman, I tell ya, inhuman! LOL.

I get your point but all the same I have limited knowledge of other approaches and can’t really talk about our school’s approach in public, so I guess someone else can start such a thread. May be if you feel up to it?

@Xiao3 Meng4

As is their right and their pleasure. If you can promote mono-stylistic training, they’re certainly entitled to promote what they see as beneficial. Of course, the less derogatory an contemptuous a viewpoint is, the more likely it is that people will choose to discuss with an open mind. Leave the verbal barbs at home, I say.

You really need to see the “Dynamic tension in forms thread”,

@Xiao3 Meng4

Ever wonder why MMA/cross trainers have an interest in Kung Fu? Do you really think it’s just so they can bash it?

Some of them just do that!

Others are here to feed their egos and impart irrelevant knowledge and recommend improvements to arts in which they have no credible experience nor understanding.

So quite often you get a kung fu person asking about defense against take downs (just an example) and the solution would come from a BJJ point of view and not a kung fu one. Why? Because apparently some “experts” here believe that kung fu does not deal with this kind of attacks, because in Old China ( where wrestling arts were in existance long before kung fu) no body had thought that the fight would go to the ground.LOL

What I am getting to is that the cross trainers and MMA-ists are not here to learn but to TEACH. It is an ego thing with many of them. If you look at the attitude in “I think forms suck” thread and the “Dynamic Tension in forms” thread, you will see exactly what I am talking about.

Modern MMA-ists and cross trainers do not have deep knowledge of any kung fu style. They have spent their lives filling in the gaps with arts from all over the place. Fair enough that it works for them.

However, when newbie enter this forum and asks about a certain defensive move he is more likely to get a Muay Thai or boxing perspective (because apparently they are “functional”) than a kung fu one. There are exceptions of course but that is the trend and the reality here!

@Xiao3Meng4

Have you ever heard of projection? It usually coincides with the “methinks the lady doth protest too much” phenomenon… and yes, I’m pointing out that, compared to the actual severity of the situation, you are protesting excessively - each of your replies to me has included a complaint about how others have treated you, or a jab against someone not even involved in our conversation. Can you find some way to let all of that go and just move on?

I have moved on. I haven’t made a single reference to clueless Sanjuro in this post!

@Xiao3Meng4

I find it difficult to respect arrogance, no matter what the root cause. Just because someone has skill or knowledge with others don’t have doesn’t give them the right to be arrogant. Likewise, arrogance towards ignorance isn’t constructive, and reflects the ignorance of the arrogant person more than the “ignorant” person themselves.

I know what you are saying. In reality I am not an arrogant person. I just don’t take most of these “I know everything” characters too seriously on the net, and besides being a little tongue in cheek, I also tend to reflect their arrogance right back at them. It might make them think a little.

Sorry if that has been an inconvenience to you.

HW108

[Lucas]

anyone who knows me knows i dont go picking on people or name calling or belittling. i believe everyone, even your neighborhood drug addict, has something to offer ( yes pun intended ). i truly find no point in trying to make anyone feel less of themselves or what they do, its part of MY honor. if someone says something derogitory or hurtful about something that i like, kungfu in this case, ill maybe state my opinion or experience on the matter, but at a certain point, silence is golden, especially if your words fall on deaf ears, why waste your energy. never though will you see me directly attack or belittle anyone for their martial art choices or opinions. i wasnt always like this but i understood a long time ago that a good way to better myself is to find traits in others that i adore and make those part of myself.

however with that said, i am going to type something kind of mean.

hardwork108 i will say that you tend to, on average, come off with a self appointed air of superiority. You also continuously belittle people with ‘under the breath’ snide remarks and assumptions that you yourself get defensive about if someone returns the favor. some things you say i agree with, some things i dont. over all though, I think you let this online forum stuff effect you to throroughly.

i do appologize if im being disrespectful, but sometimes it can be healthy to hear this type of stuff from a non aggresive source.

seriously i dont think you are a bad guy. just keep on truckin, but let this small stuff sweat you less brother. if you dont let it touch you, it cannot effect you.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=Lucas;972616]
hardwork108 i will say that you tend to, on average, come off with a self appointed air of superiority. [/quote]
If I do then I apologize. I don’t intend to!

I will add that even in this thread you will see others do that too. If you are interested then go to the “Dynamic Tension in forms” thread and see how the poster “David” was treated when he mentioned an uncommon methodology that no one here was aware of.

See the these same people’s reaction when I entered the thread in David’s support.

Of course, this does not take anything away from the fact that I over react. However, one has to see the other side of the story as well.

@Lucas

You also continuously belittle people with ‘under the breath’ snide remarks and assumptions

I don’t assume anything without evidence.

@lucas

that you yourself get defensive about if someone returns the favor. some things you say i agree with, some things i dont. over all though, I think you let this online forum stuff effect you to throroughly.

More often than not it is them who make the assumptions.

@Lucas

i do appologize if im being disrespectful, but sometimes it can be healthy to hear this type of stuff from a non aggresive source.

No need to apologize and you have not been disrespectful, but honest with your opinions.

However, I do wish that you would recognize other people’s disrespectful and pompous behavior as well. In this very thread I was looked down upon by Sanjuro for being honest and admitting limited knowledge in a certain aspect of martial arts. The same Sanjuro who was unaware of certain Chow Gar methodology and has not admitted to his lack of knowledge up to now. IF you think his hipocritical behavior is morally sound then that is ok, but I thought I would mention it to you.

@Lucas

seriously i dont think you are a bad guy. just keep on truckin, but let this small stuff sweat you less brother. if you dont let it touch you, it cannot effect you.

It is good to hear honest statements and thank you. Lucas, I don’t take this stuff seriously. I know it comes across that way but it is mainly tongue in cheek as I mentioned to Xiao3 Meng4. That does not mean that I enjoy reading uninformed comments on valid TCMA methodology but I don’t loose sleep over them either.

Take care

HW108

[Xiao3_Meng4]

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;972615]If their using their own body weight to build strength and they do so by moving their bodies in a “unified” and relaxed manner, then that would parallel some internal principles.[/quote]

All animals practice Internal Kung Fu.

Yet there were people in the “Dynamic tension in forms” thread who would blindly recommend weight training to a Chow Gar practitioner. Their numbers included various cross trainers with decades of experience, including one with credentials in Olympic weight training!

Again, clarity is important. If someone recommends a training method without listing the risks with the benefits, it might be best to ask them about it along those lines. It’s a good bet that if they can’t outline the risks and proper methodology of what they’re suggesting, then they’re either being tongue in cheek or they’re just trolling. Sometimes people know, they just don’t say, though - often because they’re so into it that they forget that others might not be at the level they are. Engaging these “blind” suggestions with the questioning mentioned above before deciding whether or not a suggestion is above-board or not goes a long way towards clearing up misunderstandings.

I agree except that IMHO the internal “connectedness” can be of a deeper level.

Any thoughts on what the reason might be? Do you think something basic, such as length of training time, has an impact?

Unfortunately for many, there are many levels to body unity. The tai chi body unity is not the same as a boxers. A boxer’s body unity is not the same as Chow Gar’s. Inquisitive minds would do well to investigate these differences in detail.

The following is just my current viewpoint:

Either someone’s training to ingrain specific neuromotor pathways for quick development of competence in a specified task (a type of “external” training by my books) or training to remove all learned/habitual/inefficient pathways for the development of high levels of proprioception, sense acquisition and instinct for health and self-defense (a type of “internal” training.) As such, the resulting “bodies” may both be very healthy, but have different ideals regarding performance. Then you’ll have people training both to varying degrees, again with resultant different “bodies.”

Back to the old “internal/external” paradox: both really need to be trained together. Usually, most people do… it’s just that in their minds they sometimes focus on one or the other. Regardless of what they think they’re training, the joke is that there are no absolutes - No pure Yin or Pure Yang. Each contains elements of the other, so I try to train with both in mind.

Sorry if that has been an inconvenience to you.
HW108

No worries.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;972599]the fact is that if I don’t know something then I am man enough to admit it!
Not run around in circles like a headless chicken like most of you “I know everything, because I am a cross trainer”, kick boxers.

No one is degrading your “superior” knowledge from years of hard training while being Jack of all trades. I am sure that there is a lot you have been exposed to and that you know that I don’t. The point is that I am man enough to admit that!

However, you are not man enough to admit that you are clueless about certain aspects of Chow Gar training that you have absolutely no knowledge of. You proved that lack of knowledge and so did your other buddies. There were only two people who attempted to discuss the matter without bringing in Olympic weight training methodology or Goju ryu kata, for gods sake!

I will understand when I see the Hollywood bio pic about your legendary martial path. Lol.

IMHO, you are too full of yourself. Even your forum name is pretentious. You don’t admit to being clueless about any TCMA area of study, even when you are demonstrated to be hopelessly clueless. Yet, you mock me for honestly admitting limited knowledge in a certain area, ironically in the same area that I still proved myself more knowledgable than you!

Now you assume that you are the subject of my envy. LOL.

I have news for you. I am not an envious person and have never been, not even as a child. If I was ever to be envious then I would direct that envy to people who are experts in the area of martial arts that interest and fascinate me, that means AUTHENTIC TCMA-ists and not disilusional cross training kick boxers who claim authentic kung fu knowledge.

I have said this before, I believe you to be a decent fighter but that does not prove kung fu knowledge or prowess, given your MA background that include a dozen arts that have nothing to do with(and sometimes contradict) the higher aspects of TCMAs.

The truth about you has been with me for a long time.

And I am not a hater of those. Actually, I am an admirer of such people, even if they are so in arts that I don’t practice. That would in theory include you as well.

I only “hate” them when they make clueless comments, criticisms and even ridicule training methodologies that they are not familiar with. It is all there for everyone to see in the “Dynamic Tension in forms” thread! [Why start a thread when you are not going to accept any new info coming in? ]

When having been “enlightened” they still don´ t admit ignorance and go on to take their “better” and more “well trained” butts and hide under a proverbial rock of dis-information, deceit and lies!

It is very sad that none of the original people (including yourself) are any the wiser regarding the methodology revealed here by the poster, David, in the “Dynamic tension in forms” thread.

None of you agree with that methodology but at the same time none of you are familiar with it either and none of you seem to want to get familiar with it because first of all you need to admit to not knowing anything about it and then you need to empty your glass! it is just sad!

You should add the word “insecurity” to that statement and repeat-read it every night before you go to bed. Actually, you can send a copy to Lkfmdc and ask him to the same!

HW108[/QUOTE]

My dearest HW8, may you have peace, for you certainly seem to need it.
All this thrashing about VS the wind…sad…
Issues with your father perhaps? lack of a father figure in your life and betrayed by the one you hopes to take that place?

Little one, know that all well be alright and that peace is within your grasp, just allow the tao to show you the way.

Peace be with you I am sure that know one here harbours you ill feelings, pity perhaps, but certainly nothing hostile.
I am sure that all this “raging against your demons” won’t last forever biut if you ever need someone to talk too I am sure there are professionals in Colombia that will help you.

All the best my child.

[sanjuro_ronin]

However, I do wish that you would recognize other people’s disrespectful and pompous behavior as well. In this very thread I was looked down upon by Sanjuro for being honest and admitting limited knowledge in a certain aspect of martial arts. The same Sanjuro who was unaware of certain Chow Gar methodology and has not admitted to his lack of knowledge up to now. IF you think his hipocritical behavior is morally sound then that is ok, but I thought I would mention it to you.

My dear admirer, at a certain point the flattery I feel from your attention concerns me, I won’t call it stalking at this time, no, it far to soon for that.
Nevertheless I should make it clear that I am hetrosexual and happily married.
Yes I am aware that is of a great disappointment to you but even though I am of european and latin background I do not subscribe to that “spartan” view of things that you may be looking for.
I honestly can’t say that I am flattered either, you seem to uptight and confused and not really my type anyways.
Perhaps you best focus your attention on others more in your “sphere of dilusion”.
All the best in your search for…well…whatever ****erotic fixation you seem to be pursuing.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=Xiao3 Meng4;972651]All animals practice Internal Kung Fu. :)[/quote]
You have hit the nail on the head.

There are many “Modernists” who wonder, “why copy animal fighting when we are human and should be fighting like humans?”. They have only looked at one dimension of “animal” styles and techniques and I am guessing that there are at least 3 or 4 dimensions to this type of methodology.

@XIao3 Meng4

Again, clarity is important. If someone recommends a training method without listing the risks with the benefits, it might be best to ask them about it along those lines. It’s a good bet that if they can’t outline the risks and proper methodology of what they’re suggesting, then they’re either being tongue in cheek or they’re just trolling.

I am not sure which side of the debate you are referring to but I am certain that the poster, David, was not trolling. He described the methodology of not using weights in Chow Gar training. If memory serves me right he also gave a few reasons. In his case clarity was not an issue because the “judges” had already decided on the sentence.

I came in to that thread 11 days after the last post had been made there. I directed a post at David and supported his approach and then the whole thing was repeated with me.

It sad, but sometimes people overlook and ignore clarity when it does not suite their egos. However, you make a valid point.

@Xiao3 Meng4

Sometimes people know, they just don’t say,

I understand, but it looked the opposite to me where people did not know but just said, lol.

@Xiao3 Meng4

though - often because they’re so into it that they forget that others might not be at the level they are. Engaging these “blind” suggestions with the questioning mentioned above before deciding whether or not a suggestion is above-board or not goes a long way towards clearing up misunderstandings.

Seriously speaking I know what you are trying to say (at least I think I know) but sometimes no matter how clear and diplomatic you are people just don’t want to hear a message that messes with their egos and their illusions of grandeur.

As far as the TCMAs go this attitude is just silly, because the subject area is vast and deeper than most people imagine, so I don’t know where the shame is in just saying “hey I am unfamiliar with that” ; “I don’t know” or “tell me more”, “how do you compensate for such and such” and so on. This is better than going on and “shooting the messenger” and ridiculing concepts way above their heads.

Hey, I hope that I did not mis-interprete your whole statement.

@Xiao3 Meng4

Any thoughts on what the reason might be? Do you think something basic, such as length of training time, has an impact?

Length of time is a very important aspect but some people do get it quicker. The particular training methodology is paramount to getting the results required. It is a subtle methodology but the results go far deeper than just external connectivity which is also valid and has its own merits.

@XIao3 Meng4

The following is just my current viewpoint:

Either someone’s training to ingrain specific neuromotor pathways for quick development of competence in a specified task (a type of “external” training by my books) or training to remove all learned/habitual/inefficient pathways for the development of high levels of proprioception, sense acquisition and instinct for health and self-defense (a type of “internal” training.) As such, the resulting “bodies” may both be very healthy, but have different ideals regarding performance. Then you’ll have people training both to varying degrees, again with resultant different “bodies.”

I agree with that. Of course, there are internalists who distinguish being fit from being healthy. As in you getting fit through external training but that does not mean that you are getting healthy, while correct internal training is seen to have inbuilt health benefits as well as the aimed for martial ones.

@Xiao3 Meng4

Back to the old “internal/external” paradox: both really need to be trained together. Usually, most people do… it’s just that in their minds they sometimes focus on one or the other.

True, you can’t have one without the other but and this is a big but, I have come to understand that the more internal the TCMA then the more high level it is classified by many TCMA-ists. I have met sifus who confirm this school of thought.

Now for those who are truly interested in TCMAs would probably want to ask why!
And I believe that researching this vast area this would be a fascinating endeavor for those who take both the scholarly and martial approach to their kung fu training.

There are a lot of subtle elements in internal training that are not visible to the unlooker. Hence all the confusion and cluelessness but researching and studying them will open the door to an unknown world. The hints are all around us but many people refuse to look outside their box and accept, because they already know every thing. LOL.

@Xiao3 Meng4

Regardless of what they think they’re training, the joke is that there are no absolutes - No pure Yin or Pure Yang. Each contains elements of the other, so I try to train with both in mind.

I agree and our aim should be eventually to surpass both yin and the yang, to a point where there is no positive and no negative; no strength and no weakness, just the state of “being”. I believe that it is referred to Wu Ji (if my memory serves me right) and here we are talking about high level internals.

HW108

[IronWeasel]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;972679]My dearest HW8, may you have peace, for you certainly seem to need it.
All this thrashing about VS the wind…sad…
Issues with your father perhaps? lack of a father figure in your life and betrayed by the one you hopes to take that place?

Little one, know that all well be alright and that peace is within your grasp, just allow the tao to show you the way.

Peace be with you I am sure that know one here harbours you ill feelings, pity perhaps, but certainly nothing hostile.
I am sure that all this “raging against your demons” won’t last forever biut if you ever need someone to talk too I am sure there are professionals in Colombia that will help you.

All the best my child.[/QUOTE]

Wow.

I just had the BEST cry!

Thank you.
thank you.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;972679]My dearest HW8,[/quote]
That is HW108 for you. You could at least get my name right. I mean, it is not like it is a high level TCMA concept.

By the way, thank you for referring to me as “dearest” as it makes me feel warm and wanted.:rolleyes:

@sanjuro_ronin

may you have peace,

I will have peace once you and your fellow crosstraining “kung fu-ists” start respecting the authentic TCMA posters or else go and share your clueless opinions (because that is what they are in reality,opinions!) in some MMA forum znc yes Irritate the MMA-ists for a while and yes let the rest of us be in peace.

@sanjuro_ronin

for you certainly seem to need it.

I did not need peace until I came upon your “kung fu” posts. Now I need peace but no more laughs please as the old ticker won’t be able to handle any more of your profound insights into the higher levels of TMA training.

@sanjuro_ronin

All this thrashing about VS the wind…sad…

Don’t get sad, get even! Go and sue all those kung fu teachers who took your money in return for kung fu knowledge and get your money back. How dare they not teach you kung fu when you spent, how many weeks was it? Between your Tae Kwon Do, various karate styles, judo, Bjj, Mantis (LOL) classes.

@sanjuro_ronin

Issues with your father perhaps?

Well he was a little upset when I told him that I was having forum difficulties with clueless cross trainers but in the end he calmed down and asked to be kind to the intellectually challenged posters on internet forums and that he would “take care” of the situation.

@sanjuro-ronin

lack of a father figure in your life

Well he almost left but I calmed him down. Apparently he wanted to go to Canada to kill someone.

@sanjuro_ronin

and betrayed by the one you hopes to take that place?

Well I was betrayed by the low quality of kung fu knowledge that one comes across on the internet, not to mention the general ignorance when someone actually posts valid concepts, but hey, there are still a few here who practice authentic TCMAs and they, just like me, are happy to enquire about subject areas where they lack knowledge. So, we are able to have constructive discussion and I am happy.

@sanjuro_ronin

Little one, know that all well be alright and that peace is within your grasp, just allow the tao to show you the way.

Peace be with you I am sure that know one here harbours you ill feelings, pity perhaps, but certainly nothing hostile.
I am sure that all this “raging against your demons” won’t last forever biut if you ever need someone to talk too I am sure there are professionals in Colombia that will help you.

All the best my child.

Christ. Now he is giving me the creeps!!!

One minute he is a cross training clueless knucklehead and the next minute he is talking like a clueless Zen master.

I guess I just experienced the negative effects of cross training. LOL

HW108
By the way, I know some Colombian professionals who can help you too.

[Dragonzbane76]

[

Others are here to feed their egos and impart irrelevant knowledge and recommend improvements to arts in which they have no credible experience nor understanding.

So quite often you get a kung fu person asking about defense against take downs (just an example) and the solution would come from a BJJ point of view and not a kung fu one. Why? Because apparently some “experts” here believe that kung fu does not deal with this kind of attacks, because in Old China ( where wrestling arts were in existance long before kung fu) no body had thought that the fight would go to the ground.LOL

What I am getting to is that the cross trainers and MMA-ists are not here to learn but to TEACH. It is an ego thing with many of them. If you look at the attitude in “I think forms suck” thread and the “Dynamic Tension in forms” thread, you will see exactly what I am talking about.

Modern MMA-ists and cross trainers do not have deep knowledge of any kung fu style. They have spent their lives filling in the gaps with arts from all over the place. Fair enough that it works for them.

However, when newbie enter this forum and asks about a certain defensive move he is more likely to get a Muay Thai or boxing perspective (because apparently they are “functional”) than a kung fu one. There are exceptions of course but that is the trend and the reality here

I think it’s funny you lump everyone into a single catagory. Thinking no one else on this planet has experienced anything remotely of your ‘internal’ kung fu. I tried to speak with you on a level of intellegence but you distanced yourself and pointed down upon me with your comments of “im better than you because i train chow gar” type stuff. That no other art on this planet has come close to the internal “solution” that ‘your’ kung fu has come to. NONE.

I’m sorry i pity you more than anything that you live in such a small place that you believe every other fighting art on this planet present and past besides TCMA has no meaning on the fore front.

Humbling is the word i think you should experience just once to feel what it is to know what it is I know.

Preaching from your podium that no other has experienced what you know. That none know what “true Kung fu” is.

Step outside and look to see that there are many other arts that practice the same principles and train the same regiments. time and time again it has been seen, heard, and experienced by many.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;972698][

I think it’s funny you lump everyone into a single catagory. Thinking no one else on this planet has experienced anything remotely of your ‘internal’ kung fu. I tried to speak with you on a level of intellegence but you distanced yourself and pointed down upon me with your comments of “im better than you because i train chow gar” type stuff. That no other art on this planet has come close to the internal “solution” that ‘your’ kung fu has come to. NONE.

I’m sorry i pity you more than anything that you live in such a small place that you believe every other fighting art on this planet present and past besides TCMA has no meaning on the fore front.

Humbling is the word i think you should experience just once to feel what it is to know what it is I know.

Preaching from your podium that no other has experienced what you know. That none know what “true Kung fu” is.

Step outside and look to see that there are many other arts that practice the same principles and train the same regiments. time and time again it has been seen, heard, and experienced by many.[/QUOTE]

What you quoted in your post had nothing to do with my knowledge of Chow Gar. You missed the point of what I was saying in that quote and then went on to project your own insecurities all over the place.

Look, if you are happy with what you do then I am happy for you but don’t go around ridiculing concepts that you don’t understand or at least you are not familiar with just because you think that the Western model of MA training is second to none. That is all. It does not matter if I do Chow Gar or Hun gar!

That is my point and it has been repeated god knows how many times!

[Dragonzbane76]

What you quoted in your post had nothing to do with my knowledge of Chow Gar. You missed the point of what I was saying in that quote and then went on to project your own insecurities all over the place.

Look, if you are happy with what you do then I am happy for you but don’t go around ridiculing concepts that you don’t understand or at least you are not familiar with just because you think that the Western model of MA training is second to none. That is all. It does not matter if I do Chow Gar or Hun gar!

That is my point and it has been repeated god knows how many times!

maybe i generalized a bit but the general gist of it was my point.

I am happy and i have no insecurities over what i do. your thoughts on what i have ‘no grasp over’ are a falus. And who in the world did you get the concept that i was speaking of just “western” MA. I"m talking the world over. And second if anyone is stating that Eastern MA is second to none you should look in the mirror.