Five Ancestor Chi Sao/Interesting for Wing Chuners!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;922298]I will say this. People who practise wing chun purely as an external martial art have no grounds to complain about what you have said. Wing Chun practiced externally is not really kung fu. That is my honest opinion. The practice of any kung fu style should incorporate the internals otherwise there is no balance nor essence.

You are right when comparing it with 95% percent of Wing Chun out there. Lets just say classify the other 5% as unknown, for the sake of science.:wink:

I have heard about those.:wink: I heard he really embarassed some karate dan grades as well, is that true?

Not just one, but a few top ranking karate guys, especially those from Goju Ryu who wanted to do ‘kakie’ with him. some interesting reference to Sifu Leong can be found here on the legendary Steve Morris website:- http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/07Scorpionnoteslinks.htm

If you were referring to my comment, then that is exactly what I meant as that fact holds true for high level Wing Chun as well.

You know, one of the main points that I have made about people crosstraining needlessly has been to find their answers in their kung fu and if their school does not provide it then they should look elsewhere in an kung fu school with an authentic kung fu sifu, instead of running to the local BJJ or Thai Boxing gym.

You should see the kind of treatment I am getting for that elsewhere in this forum and for a long time I might add. So don’t you dare go against the MMA and “Cross training is king” as you are going to offend a lot of people who make their bread and butter from the “modern” training concept of mixing MA, LOL,lol,lol.

refreshing to hear someone with a sense of humour, careful not to dare me ! lol

It is ironic that wing chun became popular because of someone who walked away from it.:confused:

That would make a good thread subject.:smiley:

I am glad that you are posting. You are one of the minority here who train kung fu under a proper sifu. Of course that doesn’t mean that others who interact with you will not sometimes disagree but then that is what we are here for and that is to discuss and hopefully get enlightened about this great art, no matter what style we practice.:)[/QUOTE]
thats right

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[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;921632]Hardwork108

This is true of alot of chinese arts e.g taiji, wingchun(see a description by Jim when he met Senior Hendrik)- Its alot similar to what was described of Sifu Leung. This is true of my experience with my internal arts sigung.

I study Hsing I, bagua, yiquan, taiji, qigong in our lineage together with internal wingchun.
Its all very deep. I still have a long way to go to manifest what the Yik Kam Kuen Kuit(Senior Hendrik lineage) describes.

To root a force, you have to be soft, and it goes into the ground. If you are hard- it doesnt help because you are running on lik- strength energy.[/QUOTE]

so you study 4 other arts alongside your wing chun, that all happen to be internal, i see.

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[QUOTE=Shaolin Fist;921817]Ok i’ll speak in your language so we cross wires…

I think 5 Ancestors is definately ‘Inferior’ to Wing Chun because 10 years ago i got truly done over by a 30 plus years experienced Wing Chun master who i thought was going to be a pushover. As i was armed with some of what i thought was Superior 5 Ancestor chi sau bullets i went in with all guns blazing.
But alas as the stories went, i lost my chi sau chalengne :frowning:

Based on that i can only conclude that Wing Chun is a Superior System to 5 Ancestors.

Oh dont get me wrong, let me give ‘credit’ to 5-Ancestors as they do have a ‘few good points’ :rolleyes:

Ok after i have finish my popcorn i gonna train my Superior Wing Chun moves…[/QUOTE]

you talk rubbish so dont bother

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[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;922310]Its silly to post so much on a Sifu that reputation you only heard. Yes I agree it is fruitless for you to continue this thread. What are you defending? Sifu Yap reputation? You are not his student, he doesnt need your defending, and one can see he is a skilled master. Wuzu reputation? Wuzu doesnt need defending, it stands as a formidable MA. So what? Your point that wingchun is inferior to , Wuzu Quan, Ngor Chor Kun, Ngo Chor Kun or Five Ancestors Fist?

HW108, Shaolin Fist
My belief is Wingchun learnt just for self defence is formidable already, as master wong, bruce lee, leung ting, has proven all over the world.
My experience- My Wuzu brother who switched over later, had multiple nice exchanges, we agreed it was a draw. I would honestly say, it wasnt easy, because it was my first encounter with “Hard” hands, strong “Hard” structure. You can see what I mean from the Wuzu video. I was faster, but he was hard to larp, pak. And his close range punching could really floor you. My cultivation back then was not internal per se. Even if I lost, it was no big deal, he had 30 years of experience, but he graciously said it was a draw. I did get alot of ***** slaps in due to speed but without internal understanding it would have been hard to hurt him because of Wuzu Iron body conditioning Tiet Bo San. Later, I was taught the internal aspects of wingchun power, and I learnt chain punching isnt just flicking your hands rapidly into the air, connection of the whole body, rooting, power from ground up. Wingchun looks soft, but its subtle and penetrating and at times projecting, not like hard lik or hard jing.
I might have done some damage if I did a straight blast with my body behind the strikes attacking his face, but I wasnt there to do him in, as he wasnt as well, we are kungfu brothers.

What is the difference between white crane and Wuzu, San Chien? Why does Wingchun not have San Chien(if it descended from White Crane)? Or Santi from Hsing I? Now I know, Wingchun is not taiji, not Wuzu 5 parts power, not Choy Lay Fut, no Hung Kuen. Why dont we take silk reeling from taiji or add Pakua stepping to Chum Kil? It has its only internal mechanics and described in details by some Seniors on this forum for years.

I have never heard any of your claims on advanced wingchun or bong sao.

You can tell me to my face that 5 a is crap, thats ok, but if we touch hands and you loose would you say your wing chun is inferior? the proof is in the pudding.
If I lose when we touch hands, I AM INFERIOR, not Wingchun. I just have to train harder, then I will visit you again for another exchange. And if I beat you then, is Wingchun now proven superior? TCMA is about , self cultivation, making friends through the martial way, not stylist, styles and who is better. You dont have a clue about TCMA culture and have shallow views.

What security or criticism? Of course wingchun can take it, it is not invincible bullet blocking stuff. But it must be said by one who can qualify his answer with experience. You havent done that. You still havent said how long you trained in wingchun or which Sifu. I dont think its wingchun that has security issues. When you "challenge perceptions of the video on u tube", you must show why? show experience? Posting a master you idol, doesnt count as experience. You can tell us your real upfront experience or talk about Wuzu Internal Mechanics versus Wingchun Internal mechancis, thats good enough.

you wont asked me to get the list, out of respect for the tcma you will want to give face
You are talking nonsense here. What reference do you have of countless Sifus who have lost to Sifu Yap? From Youtube as well? You berate wingchun to boost Wuzu. You put down Wuzu other lineages to boost your admiration for Sifu Yap, whom you saw on youtube. And you talk about respect for TCMA?

Why many masters cross train? Who? Please state these masters names. How many are Yip Man? Or Bruce Lee? Or Wong Shun Leung? And here’s my answer, most are not original students of Yip Man or didnt spend enough time in Wingchun. Did you hear any students of Yip Man go learn Shui Chiao? Or Muay Thai? Or Boxing? Why did Wong Shun Leung turn to Wingchun over boxing? Why did Leung Sheung give up Dragon Boxing?

As you can see in Master Samuel Kwok videos, wingchun is very alive. Its very attentive in listening.

the main reason wing chun became popular was because of the bruce lee films in the 70s/80s more inclined to thank golden harvest, for the boom in the 70s.
The challenges of Yip man, and his students were hongkong entertainment tonight even before Bruce Lee learnt wingchun or the movies. He was even famous in guangzhou known as the 3 hero with Master Yuen and Master Yiu.
Bruce Lee died in 1973, his films were becoming famous in the late 60s/70s and before that he was becoming famous in Hollywood. In hongkong, Master Wong, Master Cheung etc…went about challenge matches all those years. Wingchun didnt stop in hongkong just because Bruce Lee went to the states
Seriously, you dont show you know much about wingchun, wingchun history or the physical mechanics- Then again I could be wrong, and I would stand corrected(please feel free to do so). Thats why and I “Speculate” you gave up. And that you can use things like bong sao as a reference point, advance wingchun etc…shows you dont understand the subject

You cant go to a boxing site, muay thai site or taiji site and say their art is crap, and expect not to be challenged on your points. You were not sharing an actual experience, you were putting down other arts to boost your view. My Wuzu brother still does wingchun and wuzu. He doesnt talk down about either art- It was his personal choice and I will ask him which lineage in Malaysia he comes from. And if its Chee Kim Thong, it doesnt mean anything about Wuzu and its reputation as a fighting art.
You were once part of the wingchun family too, just because you found another art you like doesnt mean you can be nasty about your previous. Its just common sense, grace and respect to your previous Sifu.

If you like Wuzu, all the power to you, but dont put down Wingchun. It has stood for years and many heros have spend decades spreading the art, thats why it is what it is today, one of the most popular TCMA in the world.[/QUOTE]

you say

I would honestly say, it wasnt easy, because it was my first encounter with “Hard” hands, strong “Hard” structure. You can see what I mean from the Wuzu video. I was faster, but he was hard to larp, pak. And his close range punching could really floor you.

you are correct, but you were still encountering a 5A a ‘hard guy’ you would have problems with someone who has both hard & soft. If that guy had both he would not have to crossover to WC in Singapore. By the way, some practitioners of hard style 5A from Singapore have crossed over to the Chee Kim Thong 5A.

What reference do you have of countless Sifus who have lost to Sifu Yap?
That is for you to find out or ask him, unless you think I am telling a lie.

As you can see in Master Samuel Kwok videos, wingchun is very alive. Its very attentive in listening.

That is your opinion. I have noticed flaws, which you should have spotted if you are that experienced.

You still havent said how long you trained in wingchun or which Sifu.

My WC master was and is still very famous in Europe and he trained under the late Yip Man. Is that good enough for you?

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[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;922310]Its silly to post so much on a Sifu that reputation you only heard. Yes I agree it is fruitless for you to continue this thread. What are you defending? Sifu Yap reputation? You are not his student, he doesnt need your defending, and one can see he is a skilled master. Wuzu reputation? Wuzu doesnt need defending, it stands as a formidable MA. So what? Your point that wingchun is inferior to , Wuzu Quan, Ngor Chor Kun, Ngo Chor Kun or Five Ancestors Fist?

HW108, Shaolin Fist
My belief is Wingchun learnt just for self defence is formidable already, as master wong, bruce lee, leung ting, has proven all over the world.
My experience- My Wuzu brother who switched over later, had multiple nice exchanges, we agreed it was a draw. I would honestly say, it wasnt easy, because it was my first encounter with “Hard” hands, strong “Hard” structure. You can see what I mean from the Wuzu video. I was faster, but he was hard to larp, pak. And his close range punching could really floor you. My cultivation back then was not internal per se. Even if I lost, it was no big deal, he had 30 years of experience, but he graciously said it was a draw. I did get alot of ***** slaps in due to speed but without internal understanding it would have been hard to hurt him because of Wuzu Iron body conditioning Tiet Bo San. Later, I was taught the internal aspects of wingchun power, and I learnt chain punching isnt just flicking your hands rapidly into the air, connection of the whole body, rooting, power from ground up. Wingchun looks soft, but its subtle and penetrating and at times projecting, not like hard lik or hard jing.
I might have done some damage if I did a straight blast with my body behind the strikes attacking his face, but I wasnt there to do him in, as he wasnt as well, we are kungfu brothers.

What is the difference between white crane and Wuzu, San Chien? Why does Wingchun not have San Chien(if it descended from White Crane)? Or Santi from Hsing I? Now I know, Wingchun is not taiji, not Wuzu 5 parts power, not Choy Lay Fut, no Hung Kuen. Why dont we take silk reeling from taiji or add Pakua stepping to Chum Kil? It has its only internal mechanics and described in details by some Seniors on this forum for years.

I have never heard any of your claims on advanced wingchun or bong sao.

You can tell me to my face that 5 a is crap, thats ok, but if we touch hands and you loose would you say your wing chun is inferior? the proof is in the pudding.
If I lose when we touch hands, I AM INFERIOR, not Wingchun. I just have to train harder, then I will visit you again for another exchange. And if I beat you then, is Wingchun now proven superior? TCMA is about , self cultivation, making friends through the martial way, not stylist, styles and who is better. You dont have a clue about TCMA culture and have shallow views.

What security or criticism? Of course wingchun can take it, it is not invincible bullet blocking stuff. But it must be said by one who can qualify his answer with experience. You havent done that. You still havent said how long you trained in wingchun or which Sifu. I dont think its wingchun that has security issues. When you "challenge perceptions of the video on u tube", you must show why? show experience? Posting a master you idol, doesnt count as experience. You can tell us your real upfront experience or talk about Wuzu Internal Mechanics versus Wingchun Internal mechancis, thats good enough.

you wont asked me to get the list, out of respect for the tcma you will want to give face
You are talking nonsense here. What reference do you have of countless Sifus who have lost to Sifu Yap? From Youtube as well? You berate wingchun to boost Wuzu. You put down Wuzu other lineages to boost your admiration for Sifu Yap, whom you saw on youtube. And you talk about respect for TCMA?

Why many masters cross train? Who? Please state these masters names. How many are Yip Man? Or Bruce Lee? Or Wong Shun Leung? And here’s my answer, most are not original students of Yip Man or didnt spend enough time in Wingchun. Did you hear any students of Yip Man go learn Shui Chiao? Or Muay Thai? Or Boxing? Why did Wong Shun Leung turn to Wingchun over boxing? Why did Leung Sheung give up Dragon Boxing?

As you can see in Master Samuel Kwok videos, wingchun is very alive. Its very attentive in listening.

the main reason wing chun became popular was because of the bruce lee films in the 70s/80s more inclined to thank golden harvest, for the boom in the 70s.
The challenges of Yip man, and his students were hongkong entertainment tonight even before Bruce Lee learnt wingchun or the movies. He was even famous in guangzhou known as the 3 hero with Master Yuen and Master Yiu.
Bruce Lee died in 1973, his films were becoming famous in the late 60s/70s and before that he was becoming famous in Hollywood. In hongkong, Master Wong, Master Cheung etc…went about challenge matches all those years. Wingchun didnt stop in hongkong just because Bruce Lee went to the states
Seriously, you dont show you know much about wingchun, wingchun history or the physical mechanics- Then again I could be wrong, and I would stand corrected(please feel free to do so). Thats why and I “Speculate” you gave up. And that you can use things like bong sao as a reference point, advance wingchun etc…shows you dont understand the subject

You cant go to a boxing site, muay thai site or taiji site and say their art is crap, and expect not to be challenged on your points. You were not sharing an actual experience, you were putting down other arts to boost your view. My Wuzu brother still does wingchun and wuzu. He doesnt talk down about either art- It was his personal choice and I will ask him which lineage in Malaysia he comes from. And if its Chee Kim Thong, it doesnt mean anything about Wuzu and its reputation as a fighting art.
You were once part of the wingchun family too, just because you found another art you like doesnt mean you can be nasty about your previous. Its just common sense, grace and respect to your previous Sifu.

If you like Wuzu, all the power to you, but dont put down Wingchun. It has stood for years and many heros have spend decades spreading the art, thats why it is what it is today, one of the most popular TCMA in the world.[/QUOTE]

I believe that when shaolinfist posts his opinions he is referring to his experience of Wing Chun and how most Wing Chun is trained in the West (mainly externally and incompletely) to sifu Yap Leong’s (Chee Kim Thong’s) lineage of Five Ancestor Fist which has deep internal concepts and training. I don’t believe that he is here to make trouble or to insult people.

I believe that he has more in common with those of us who also train Wing Chun internally than he has with those who train 5 Ancestor kung fu only externally. We should welcome him here and embrace his opinions and discuss the internals.

The fact is this forum is full of “kung fu-ists” and self proclaimed “sifus” who do not even know of the existance of the internals. So we should embrace kung fu brothers who have an understanding of this fundemental element of authentic kung fu training.:slight_smile:

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Internal

What are the internals of Wing Chun?

Please share how you practice WC both Internally and Externally.

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;922617]I believe that when shaolinfist posts his opinions he is referring to his experience of Wing Chun and how most Wing Chun is trained in the West (mainly externally and incompletely) to sifu Yap Leong’s (Chee Kim Thong’s) lineage of Five Ancestor Fist which has deep internal concepts and training. I don’t believe that he is here to make trouble or to insult people.

I believe that he has more in common with those of us who also train Wing Chun internally than he has with those who train 5 Ancestor kung fu only externally. We should welcome him here and embrace his opinions and discuss the internals.

The fact is this forum is full of “kung fu-ists” and self proclaimed “sifus” who do not even know of the existance of the internals. So we should embrace kung fu brothers who have an understanding of this fundemental element of authentic kung fu training.:)[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=shaolinfist;922571]you talk rubbish so dont bother[/QUOTE]

So now you know how you sound like to us ! So i take it you dont like it when i speak the same language :rolleyes:

Now back up your claims with technical explaination or better still finish off or elaborate on my technical explainations. However i if you cant then you are clearly too inexperienced and in no position to be making such ridiculous and insulting statements.

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[QUOTE=shaolinfist;922576]you say

you are correct, but you were still encountering a 5A a ‘hard guy’ you would have problems with someone who has both hard & soft. If that guy had both he would not have to crossover to WC in Singapore. By the way, some practitioners of hard style 5A from Singapore have crossed over to the Chee Kim Thong 5A.

That is for you to find out or ask him, unless you think I am telling a lie.

That is your opinion. I have noticed flaws, which you should have spotted if you are that experienced.

My WC master was and is still very famous in Europe and he trained under the late Yip Man. Is that good enough for you?[/QUOTE]

Singapore 5A crossed over to Chee Kim Thong? Wuzu to Wuzu, change of lineage, its personal perference- whats the relationship to wingchun? You dont have to prove to anyone you know wuzu stories and tales, just that you have been trained and understand wingchun mechanics since you mock it.
You know the Wuzu brother over 60 years old, with 30+ years experience? You know he doesnt have hard and soft?
You even talk bad about Wuzu fellow practitioners who have been training probably longer than you? Hmmm…not admirable behaviour.

So here I ask, what is hard? What is soft? Root? Structure? How does one hold the spine, kua, shoulder nest in Hard? How does one hold these things in soft? Tension? With so much hard kung lik training, iron stones, iron body in Wuzu? How does one train Soft?

I havent seen any “truths” besides claims and more claims.

You havent answered which of Yip man’s students cross train because wingchun is hallow?

Please pin point the flaws.
Master Samuel Kwok has learnt under the sons of Yip Man for decades. In the demo he chi sao with the world’s strongest man.
Please Show us your great experience and knowledge.

See the previous posts we talk techniques, we talk mechanics, we talk references.
Use wingchun terms, internal terms, wuzu terms, lets have a serious discussion or go to a Wuzu site to discuss your admiration issues.

Its good to take your advice, dont waste more bandwidth on your fruitless post. Your understanding of both arts and TCMA is revealed.

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;922617]I believe that when shaolinfist posts his opinions he is referring to his experience of Wing Chun and how most Wing Chun is trained in the West (mainly externally and incompletely) to sifu Yap Leong’s (Chee Kim Thong’s) lineage of Five Ancestor Fist which has deep internal concepts and training. I don’t believe that he is here to make trouble or to insult people.

I believe that he has more in common with those of us who also train Wing Chun internally than he has with those who train 5 Ancestor kung fu only externally. We should welcome him here and embrace his opinions and discuss the internals.

The fact is this forum is full of “kung fu-ists” and self proclaimed “sifus” who do not even know of the existance of the internals. So we should embrace kung fu brothers who have an understanding of this fundemental element of authentic kung fu training.:)[/QUOTE]

C’mon mate, he cant even hold a technical discussion about Wuzu or talk about wingchun he learnt.

You think he’s actually sharing about authentic kungfu training? Where’s the technical stuff? he is only slamming wingchun as hallow but not able to produce evidence of it.

Shaolin Fist talks his wuzu language and he cant back it up.

Sifu Yap looks like a skilled master, but he didnt teach this guy posting here. So he is just saying he idolizes him, thats all. And he didnt learn enough wingchun to make it work for him.

So whats next? A taiji guy slamming wingchun? More muay thai guys slamming wingchun? BJJ? Boxing? Hsing I? Bagua? On a wingchun forum? This people dont even know the basics of TCMA culture- self cultivation, thats why china has so many styles, lineages and they all co-exist in peace.

If he can discuss training, fighting strategies of wuzu or wingchun we’d be getting somewhere. But all just silly slams of wingchun, and his admiration for Sifu Yap, talk about tao, pride etc… He’s wasting everyone’s time.

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[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;922728]C’mon mate, he cant even hold a technical discussion about Wuzu or talk about wingchun he learnt.

You think he’s actually sharing about authentic kungfu training? Where’s the technical stuff? he is only slamming wingchun as hallow but not able to produce evidence of it.

Shaolin Fist talks his wuzu language and he cant back it up.

Sifu Yap looks like a skilled master, but he didnt teach this guy posting here. So he is just saying he idolizes him, thats all. And he didnt learn enough wingchun to make it work for him.

So whats next? A taiji guy slamming wingchun? More muay thai guys slamming wingchun? BJJ? Boxing? Hsing I? Bagua? On a wingchun forum? This people dont even know the basics of TCMA culture- self cultivation, thats why china has so many styles, lineages and they all co-exist in peace.

If he can discuss training, fighting strategies of wuzu or wingchun we’d be getting somewhere. But all just silly slams of wingchun, and his admiration for Sifu Yap, talk about tao, pride etc… He’s wasting everyone’s time.[/QUOTE]

Well i guess that just about sums it up …there’s not a lot more i can add except if shaolinfist was truly sincere about discussing and comparing the two systems (which clearly is not the case) then you dont make an opening statement insulting the style which this part of the forum represents.

If he thinks Wing Chun is Hollow, so what ? he has a right to an opinion but dont expect us to take him seriously as he has no technical insight to back up his claims other than his own inadequate failings.

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[QUOTE=CFT;922353]I know some Wing Chun practitioners are a bit “wrist-y” but doesn’t Wing Chun have focus at the elbow also (jaang daai lik)?[/QUOTE]

Very true as you say Wing Chun should :wink:

Ok let me approach it different way. In the vid YL is clearly not forcing through a lot of heavy forward energy through his bridge (.ie the brick wall effect) nor does he have to as the other guy is his student and really playing his game.

Watch YL right hand and notice the 5A bong never allows the wrist to drop below the elbows as this would violate the its rooting function. YL bong only needs to rise to maintain structure. In turn his students fok will always be compromised as YL bong has taken him wide. Sure the guy could huen back to the inside (or pak) but with YL level of sensitivity…is student would find it difficult !

Chu Shong Tin demostrates this same elbow principle pretty well in one of his You Tube clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWggfQrN-lQ but that is where the similarities end because the wrist energy is different.

The essence of the 5A can be seen in the positioning and alignment of the elbows. To most who havent witnessed 5 A it wont be immediately obvious …maybe ‘shaolinfist’ would like to elaborate further for me ?

This positioning and use of the elbows is technically (plus the way they deliver their gung lik) one of the major differences in the 2 systems and this difference in bridging structures gives rise to different properties… different tool doing the same job !

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[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;922728]C’mon mate, he cant even hold a technical discussion about Wuzu or talk about wingchun he learnt.

You think he’s actually sharing about authentic kungfu training? Where’s the technical stuff? he is only slamming wingchun as hallow but not able to produce evidence of it.

Shaolin Fist talks his wuzu language and he cant back it up.

Sifu Yap looks like a skilled master, but he didnt teach this guy posting here. So he is just saying he idolizes him, thats all. And he didnt learn enough wingchun to make it work for him.

So whats next? A taiji guy slamming wingchun? More muay thai guys slamming wingchun? BJJ? Boxing? Hsing I? Bagua? On a wingchun forum? This people dont even know the basics of TCMA culture- self cultivation, thats why china has so many styles, lineages and they all co-exist in peace.

If he can discuss training, fighting strategies of wuzu or wingchun we’d be getting somewhere. But all just silly slams of wingchun, and his admiration for Sifu Yap, talk about tao, pride etc… He’s wasting everyone’s time.[/QUOTE]

The five ancestors i am interested in is the chee kim thong lineage, that implements the float, swallow sink vomit principles. using the breath and yi (mind)
to inform the techniques. when i refer to my wing chun being hollow i refer to my experience of it which was stick to hit, explosive speed, but shooting blanks, just physical ! no inclusion of chi or mind. when i see sifu kwoks chi sao i see a practictioner retreating not manipulating the opponents attacks and leaking through, nor have i seen or felt many wing chun practioners cultivate heavy hands

you talk about me being idolising sifu yap leong, you are blinded by your own idolising, you can see the tricks used in some of the videos you posted. they are mostly set ups, always retreating,
Any quality wuzu player would never retreat,
the concept is to forge forward, as in san chien (three Battles). I am interested in
finding a good wuzu teacher,

i dropped my wing chun, bloody useless.

good luck to you all with your training hope you enjoy your perpetual springtime !

73

[QUOTE=shaolinfist;923326]The five ancestors i am interested in is the chee kim thong lineage, that implements the float, swallow sink vomit principles.[/quote]

I have read about him, he was the real deal and was considered a living treasure by the Chinese government (if I remember my readings correctly).

As I mentioned before it is about how a kung fu style is trained and you are right in implying that if one compares chee kim thong’s lineage of Five Ancestor Fist to most Wing Chun that is trained here in the West, then there is no contest. I said before that it seems that most Wing Chun is trained externally.

There are many kung fu practitioners here that can’t stop telling everyone about their decades of "kung fu"experience but when asked about the internals they will turn around and say that they don’t exist and/or they are fantasy, etc. (no doubt with a confused look on their faces when they are typing those words…lol).

However, people such Shadow Warrior and Hendrik do practice Wing Chun internally and as a result, at least in Shadow’s case he sees your remarks as an “attack” on Wing Chun. I don’t think that he should, because of this statement:

That is a fair statement. Your experience of Wing Chun is equal to about 95 percent of WC practitioners here in the West. The lineage that I practice considers itself an internal system. However, we are aware that most WC and other kung fu styles are practised in a hollow manner in the western hemisphere.

The lack of input regarding the internals in this very thread from the many Wing Chun practitioners who post here, including the member who posted the second Yap Leong video may be an indication of this phenomenom.:wink:

Having said that, I know there are a handful of Knowledgable Wing Chun sifus here who could add more.:slight_smile:

I was taught to never retreat as well as retreating gives momentum to your attacker by provide him with space (as well as other obvious reasons). I have seen a lot Wing Chun classes where people go back regularly as a matter of course. I suppose if the sensitivity/listening aspects taught to them are superficial then going back is the only option open to them when faced with a stronger enemy.

Furthermore I was led to believe that the late sifu Joseph Cheng was an internalist. He used to live in London. Ask sifu Yap Leong about him as I believe that they knew each other.

Shadow_warrior and Shaolin Fist, I am just interested, do you go back when you spar or Chi Sao in your schools or do you absorb and hit back by rolling your stances, sidestepping or by 45 degree advance steps?

I know from a past conversation that, if I remember correctly, sifu Ali Rahim (who posts here) teaches this way.:slight_smile:

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Isnt Five ancestor an off spring of Fujian White Crane around 1840?

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;923368]Isnt Five ancestor an off spring of Fujian White Crane around 1840?[/QUOTE]

I know that Five Ancestor Fist is made up of different styles and elements including White Crane but I am not sure about the date it was created.

The other styles that this sytem encompasses include: Lohan, Monkey, Tai cho and Tamo.

There is more info in sifu Yap Leong’s own site here:

http://www.shaolinway.com/shaolinway/sifu1.htm

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;923375]I know that Five Ancestor Fist is made up off different styles and elements including White Crane but I am not sure about the date it was created.

The other styles that this sytem encompasses include: Lohan, Monkey, Tai cho and Tamo.

There is more info in sifu Yap Leong’s own site here:

http://www.shaolinway.com/shaolinway/sifu1.htm[/QUOTE]

ok, it is not 1840 but like 1860 or 1870’s.

http://www.konghankungfu.com/historyofngochokun.html

In my understanding,

White Crane + Emei , take the Emei 12 zhuang Rou internal path becomes SLT or WCK.

White Crane + Tai Cho…etc take the Shao Lin Kang path (IE iron palm (ti sha chiong) ) become Ngo Cho

Sister art.

What to compare or critics?

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[QUOTE=shaolinfist;923326]The five ancestors i am interested in is the chee kim thong lineage, that implements the float, swallow sink vomit principles. using the breath and yi (mind)
to inform the techniques. when i refer to my wing chun being hollow i refer to my experience of it which was stick to hit, explosive speed, but shooting blanks, just physical ! no inclusion of chi or mind. when i see sifu kwoks chi sao i see a practictioner retreating not manipulating the opponents attacks and leaking through, nor have i seen or felt many wing chun practioners cultivate heavy hands

you talk about me being idolising sifu yap leong, you are blinded by your own idolising, you can see the tricks used in some of the videos you posted. they are mostly set ups, always retreating,
Any quality wuzu player would never retreat,
the concept is to forge forward, as in san chien (three Battles). I am interested in
finding a good wuzu teacher,

i dropped my wing chun, bloody useless.

good luck to you all with your training hope you enjoy your perpetual springtime ![/QUOTE]

You still looking for a good wuzu master? Yes, please carry on and learn and come back and share.

All Wuzu lineages use the 4 cycles of Tun To Fao Chum, white crane has it, and some lineages of wingchun has it. Which lineages of wuzu dont have?
You believe its the lineage that created the Master’s skills?

Please explain your understanding of Tun To Fao Chum in Wuzu? Or mind or chi in Wuzu? And you still havent replied on hard and soft that you mentioned in Wuzu and what you understand from it. More terms, a greater need to elaborate yeah?

when i see sifu kwoks chi sao i see a practictioner retreating not manipulating the opponents attacks and leaking through, nor have i seen or felt many wing chun practioners cultivate heavy hands
Really? I see all that, lao sao, huen sao, lut sao, larp sao, chong choi…He totally controls the student and striking at will. Not your defination of manupilating opponents attack and leaking through?
How many wingchun masters/practitioners outside of your lineage have you chi saoed with?
You must know a bit of wingchun to know what is happening in the video. It was Samuel kwok showing hard strength doesnt mean Win in wingchun. Alot like you heavy hands principle you embrace. And Shaolin Fist and I talked about it in the previous mails. Still waiting for you to back up your experiences of personal wuzu skills against wingchun.
Lots of wingchun masters have heavy hands, but you cant tell it from a video. If I showed you a video on Kenneth Chung can you tell from video?
And you think heavy hands necessarily means=good? What do you understand when they say in taiji, one must invest in loss and sung.

heavy hands- what causes it? Is it muscles, tendon build up? Or ligament tension? Or relaxed striking like Systema? And whats the difference in styles who say they have heavy hands?
Is it CLF training of S.Weights? Or Iron Locks/KBs in Wuzu?
Or Santi stance breathing in big heavenly circulation in Hsing I? Or Pakua coiling?
Is it about relaxation? Or being tense? What is jang dai lik?(below elbow force)
Is sung= relaxed(in the western sense of the word)?

Is heavy hands the best way?
Why in taiji is it said, Master Yang Lu Chan can stick, and one cannot seem to detach your hand? Yet you cannot move his hand either? And one also feel no resistance?

I was not trained to retreat in wingchun, only charging in. But as my sifu said, use your common sense, if you need to because you are overwhelm, you have to do what you do. Combat is dynamic

Tricks? You know what I will ask when you present deragatory remarks that you dont back up. Qualify your statements Man!!!
Lest you try to say I idolise wingchun, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Sanda, alot of TCMA styles use setups, fake attacks or so called tricks. They are all not as good as Wuzu?

I didnt see any chi or yi demo in Sifu Yap either. That wasnt the purpose of the video, hence your evaluation of Samuel kwok video on those grounds- flawed.

Yes wingchun trained by someone who dont have a humble heart is useless, so is muay thai, boxing, bjj, if one does not spend enough time, nothing works.
Kungfu means hard work. And it requires a students heart, the essense of TCMA, faith, humility, honour the ancestors and the way, honour the source of the water.

Here is Wuzu in competition, actual fighting
http://www.56.com/u79/v_NDE0NTkyNDQ.html
They do retreat, if its is part of their fighting strategy and these are China Graded top notch fighters.
Any quality wuzu player would never retreat
Really? Thats interesting…Is it part of the kuen kuit?
Who else can you name besides Sifu Yap, whom you saw on the net, as “QUALITY” Wuzu stylist
This video shows him taking steps back- your so called retreat. Not unlike what Sifu Kwok showed in his video and not that there is anything wrong with taking steps back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oZraRtBDlg

You have revealed your knowledge of wuzu and wingchun. You are right, it was YOUR experience of wingchun that was bloody useless, not wingchun.
Please carry on your search to find your truth, be happy.

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HW108, we are asking Shaolinfist for more info because it suspiciously seems like he did a 1 month course in wingchun and walked away saying it didnt work. He makes insulting remarks like he’s an expert in Wuzu and Wingchun, but when asked for technical knowledge, its at best textbook or superficial internet info
Which Wuzu lineage doesnt have tun, to, fao, chum? Or the 5 parts power?
We were looking to talk mechanics not silly stories.

Heres my view, 95 of the west isnt all of wingchun family. Wingchun is still alive and taught traditionally in china. And it has billions of people, so whats the west 95%? And in the US people like Senior Hendrik have given data points to his lineage of Yik Kam wingchun for years. Others like Kenneth Chung, Sifu Chu many others. I suspect, many dont go and find out what to look for in an authentic art, and find someone substandard and then claim I know whats its all about. If your reference point is the limited number of wingchun people you met in the west, then its a really flawed and egotistic statement to say, yeah Wingchun doesnt work.

In wingchun, these were the teachings taught to me, and yes we are not taught to retreat(unless you have to because you are being overwhelmed)
These are e.gs of principles we use for movements, as well as fist.

  1. Kuen enters 3 gates, I can hit anywhere. So if my fist enters into 2nd gate, elbow, I will charge in, to attack the 3rd gate, no delay. Most times, we start with the 1st gate, at wrist contact already.

  2. Lien Siu Dai Da- what does it mean to simultaneous attack and defend? I will always be looking to end the fight with 1 blow, if there is no bridge obstruction.
    If it happens that he has “blocked”, then i will lao sao, huen sao or cut and attack again like chong choi with elbow below force. Still it is one movement. And I will Fan Sao, Flip fists meaning rain blows without stopping, till he is down.

  3. One movement, one strike, there is no blocking. E.g Pak sao, we do not pak intentionally, we strike a jeung, if there is obstruction bridge, it becomes a pak. And even at pak, enter 3 gates principle means bil, or chong choi, without stopping- enter 1, enter all.

Here’s what I mean in more words

Wing Chun Kuen is to attack!!!

[I]If you are not attacking the attacker’s attack, you are not doing wingchun- WSL

His thoughts on Chi Sao, too much of it, and chasing hands

  1. CHI SAU
    For example, too much emphasis on the idea of “sticking to the hands” will cause such bad habits as “chasing the hands” of the opponent and thus totally contradict one of Wing Chun’s most basic fighting principles. It is only if your attack meets with an obstruction that you have to change to attain your goal and this is where “sticky hands” comes into play, as a means to an end, that end being the winning of the fight.

In WSL’s method, its known as attack is ALWAYS the best form of defence.
Let’s pause here to define, in simple terms, what is meant by these three above-mentioned qualities:-
DIRECTNESS: Extending or moving in a straight line, or by the shortest route; not crooked or oblique; going straight to the point.
EFFICIENCY: Productive; with minimum waste of effort; ratio of useful work performed to energy expended.
SIMPLICITY: Easily understood or done; not complicated or elaborate; consisting of, or involving only one element of operation.[/I]

In wingchun kuen kuit, it says,

Dont force a hit, dont anyhow strike.(hence no sticking of hands, hitting of hands, chasing hands)
It also says, 1 strike 1 attack, that when you move to strike it must attack
It says also the hand that defends, also attacks(same hand), or in worst senario, one attacks with the other defending(using up 2 guns instead of 1, 6 weapons of wingchun instead of 3)
Kuen goes on to describe this art, to say, simultaneous attack and defense(the defense is in the attack)
Kuen enters 3 gates, I can hit anywhere. it says how the art is really about continuous attacks, from 1st gate into the 3 gates(many play at the first gate, the bridge and never get into first base)

It is obvious that leaving the hand out on top of each other is subjective?(like taiji taboo, why do you leave meat hanging on a rock).
It is wrong to touch hands for the sake of touching hands(I mean what on earth are these people doing???holding hands???)
Its silly to wait for the person to attack and then react based on feeling. ATTACK based on weakness- wingchun is about attacking.

Dont make chi sao= chasing hands. Its not. Its not waiting for a feeling. Its like saying waiting for something to happen. Wing Chun was used as a killing art in some lineages like Fung Siu Ching etc… It attacks suddenly and ruthlessly.

In a strike/attack, only when one encounters a obstacle, does one have to chi(to get around the hand, under, control for better position) etc… And the word chi means stick with arms, body, structure, spirit.

I qualify, this is MY personal understanding of wingchun. Italics is WSL, the rest is mine.

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[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;923411]HW108, we are asking Shaolinfist for more info because it suspiciously seems like he did a 1 month course in wingchun and walked away saying it didnt work. …[/QUOTE]

IMHO,

Let it be.

what is not fact never become fact disregard who said what.

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;923461]IMHO,

Let it be.

what is not fact never become fact disregard who said what.[/QUOTE]

Yes senior hendrik, its sad isnt it?

I come to share and learn only to find people challenge the art, the history, the mechanics. Its not sharing of the art, its bashing of the art, and inter lineage bashing, and IMHO a low understanding of TCMA, it doesnt open any doors. In fact, its shuts all doors.

I suggest a whole new thread for this forum- I hate Wingchun, Wingchun sucks, I hate TCMA, I love BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, but not wingchun, I hate Chi, Jing, Shen in wingchun, I know better than Yip Man because etc…

It sounds silly, but many of the posts here are just that, and there is truth in my silly post.