Five Ancestor Chi Sao/Interesting for Wing Chuners!

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;923472]Yes senior hendrik, its sad isnt it?

I come to share and learn only to find people challenge the art, the history, the mechanics. Its not sharing of the art, its bashing of the art, and inter lineage bashing, and IMHO a low understanding of TCMA, it doesnt open any doors. In fact, its shuts all doors.

I suggest a whole new thread for this forum- I hate Wingchun, Wingchun sucks, I hate TCMA, I love BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, but not wingchun, I hate Chi, Jing, Shen in wingchun, I know better than Yip Man because etc…

It sounds silly, but many of the posts here are just that, and there is truth in my silly post.[/QUOTE]

To be real honest, that is their problem not your.

if you like to share, then just share and not expect anyone to take it serious. For those who will take it serious will. Those who doesnt care will not care.

For WuZu and WCK, face it,
the Origin creator of Wuzu doing Iron Palm, that told alots on the characteristics of the art.

as for WCK, the inch jin is alway link with WCK. That told alots on the characteristics of the art.

if the WUzu player got Iron Palm but the wCner doesnt have inch Jin the what to talk? no inch jin means not well train in WCK by the ancient standard. what WCK if one doesnt even have a weapon ?

technically,

to be real honest, lots of WCK is dead, thier training cant even open the 8 medirians as in the past. So, it is hopeless. Thier YJKYM couldnt even stablelized them while standing in a bus. Thier SLT is totally garbage.

When I was in SEA decade ago, I told those who substitude some CLF training into WCK that thier stuffs cant stand the rapid fire from the white crane sanchin stance: No stability, no power, under rapid fire condition. Forget about those sets and sets and secret sets. Those are junk without the 8 medirians open up.

I dont want to say alots about Jin because I dont like to promote figthing fighting and egoistic bs, we all need to know the consequence of our action in this high medical cost era… it is not worthed to pay a big price due to one’s ignorance and emotional. Thus, with all the promotion of agresive and figthing era, I often pray that Wing Chun ended and vanish in this world, atleast that way, no more WCner and no more people get hurt by WCK.

Once I told a famous WCK sifu, if your student hurt some one and he goes to hell, you taught him that and thus you go with him. What is the point to go to hell? The ancient Chinese ancestors purposely bring up the Loving Kindness education before passing the technology, there is a reason for that. a very human one. But these days most dont listern, thus, it is better the technology vanished.

just some thougths and if you dont like what I post, that is mine problem, ignore me.

[shaolinfist]

[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;923472]Yes senior hendrik, its sad isnt it?

I come to share and learn only to find people challenge the art, the history, the mechanics. Its not sharing of the art, its bashing of the art, and inter lineage bashing, and IMHO a low understanding of TCMA, it doesnt open any doors. In fact, its shuts all doors.

I suggest a whole new thread for this forum- I hate Wingchun, Wingchun sucks, I hate TCMA, I love BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, but not wingchun, I hate Chi, Jing, Shen in wingchun, I know better than Yip Man because etc…

It sounds silly, but many of the posts here are just that, and there is truth in my silly post.[/QUOTE]

So much talk, too many teachers and yet still no essence. No wonder you had difficulty with the hard 5A guy.

[shaolinfist]

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;923363]I have read about him, he was the real deal and was considered a living treasure by the Chinese government (if I remember my readings correctly).

As I mentioned before it is about how a kung fu style is trained and you are right in implying that if one compares chee kim thong’s lineage of Five Ancestor Fist to most Wing Chun that is trained here in the West, then there is no contest. I said before that it seems that most Wing Chun is trained externally.

There are many kung fu practitioners here that can’t stop telling everyone about their decades of "kung fu"experience but when asked about the internals they will turn around and say that they don’t exist and/or they are fantasy, etc. (no doubt with a confused look on their faces when they are typing those words…lol).

However, people such Shadow Warrior and Hendrik do practice Wing Chun internally and as a result, at least in Shadow’s case he sees your remarks as an “attack” on Wing Chun. I don’t think that he should, because of this statement:

That is a fair statement. Your experience of Wing Chun is equal to about 95% percent of WC practitioners here in the West. The lineage that I practice considers itself an internal system. However, we are aware that most WC and other kung fu styles are practised in a hollow manner in the western hemisphere.

The lack of input regarding the internals in this very thread from the many Wing Chun practitioners who post here, including the member who posted the second Yap Leong video may be an indication of this phenomenom.

Having said that, I know there are a handful of Knowledgable Wing Chun sifus here who could add more.

I was taught to never retreat as well as retreating gives momentum to your attacker by provide him with space (as well as other obvious reasons). I have seen a lot Wing Chun classes where people go back regularly as a matter of course. I suppose if the sensitivity/listening aspects taught to them are superficial then going back is the only option open to them when faced with a stronger enemy.

Furthermore I was led to believe that the late sifu Joseph Cheng was an internalist. He used to live in London. Ask sifu Yap Leong about him as I believe that they knew each other.

Shadow_warrior and Shaolin Fist, I am just interested, do you go back when you spar or Chi Sao in your schools or do you absorb and hit back by rolling your stances, sidestepping or by 45 degree advance steps?

I know from a past conversation that, if I remember correctly, sifu Ali Rahim (who posts here) teaches this way.:)[/QUOTE]

I heard this story long time ago from a source who knew Sifu Yap Leong well. Yes they did meet 20yrs ago. The two had an interesting one-hand chi sau challenge initiated by Sifu Joseph Cheng. Both were seated on opposite side of the table at a Chinese cafe/restaurant. One hand chi sau became two-hands. You have to guess who won hands down or rather one/two hands up. Interestingly, I also heard of an encouter with a top Chinese sifu, whom, maybe, Shadowless Warrior will be interested to know. However I do not have confirmation of this story to enlighten you.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;923411]HW108, we are asking Shaolinfist for more info because it suspiciously seems like he did a 1 month course in wingchun and walked away saying it didnt work.[/quote]

I understand what you are saying but shaolinfist already indicated that his remarks were based on his experience of Wing Chun and unfortunately we all know of the quality of Wing Chun as practiced in the West, specially regarding the internals.

So in that regard his comments do not come out as outrageous. Perhaps he is being slightly blunt but I do not think that it should be taken as an insult. I practice Wing Chun as an internal art and hence I did not take what he said as an insult.

@Shadow_warrior

Heres my view, 95% of the west isnt all of wingchun family.

You are right but for the people who live in the West 95% percent is all of the wing chun family. Please believe me when I say that when I first started to post in this forum one couldn`t mention the internals in Wing Chun (or kung fu) without being attacked and ridiculed by other so called “kung fu” posters who were nothing but MMA-ists and had no idea of the internals.

It seems that as far as kung fu in the Western hemisphere goes, most (not all) people here practice some forms and then go on to spar while jumping around like a boxers or kickboxers without kung fu roots and so on, and they call this kung fu or even sometimes they dare call it “improved” kung fu.

Of course, many people make a lot of money from selling this “improved” kung fu. The result is that most people including some so called “sifus” don’t have any idea about internals and by extension authentic kung fu training.

This forum is full of people like that, I would say 95% full.

@Shadow_warrior

Wingchun is still alive and taught traditionally in china.

Thank god for that.

I am sure that there is a wealth of other kung fu styles that are practiced traditionally in China. Of course, I hear that there are good kung fu schools in Singapore, Taiwan and Malaysia as well.

@Shadow_warrior

Senior Hendrik have given data points to his lineage of Yik Kam wingchun for years. Others like Kenneth Chung, Sifu Chu many others. I suspect, many dont go and find out what to look for in an authentic art, and find someone substandard and then claim I know whats its all about.

This forum is full of such people. However, I would say that shaolinfist may have finally found an authentic and suitable for him, style of kung fu which is the Chee Kim Thong lineage of Five Ancestor Fist as taught by sifu Yap Leong. As a result his remarks are understandable when considering that he may have trained the substandard Wing Chun like 95% of the people here in the West.

@Shadow_warrior

If your reference point is the limited number of wingchun people you met in the west, then its a really flawed and egotistic statement to say, yeah Wingchun doesnt work.

Perhaps he didn’t know that there was a better and authentic Wing Chun still being taught in China as well as some parts of the West? I hope now that we have informed him of this fact then he will be more understanding of the Wing Chun approach.

@Shadow_warrior

In wingchun, these were the teachings taught to me, and yes we are not taught to retreat(unless you have to because you are being overwhelmed)

Very true. If overwhelmed we were taught to take one step back while reclaiming our central line and then continue “forward” as always.

@Shadow_warrior

1. Kuen enters 3 gates, I can hit anywhere. So if my fist enters into 2nd gate, elbow, I will charge in, to attack the 3rd gate, no delay. Most times, we start with the 1st gate, at wrist contact already.

2. Lien Siu Dai Da- what does it mean to simultaneous attack and defend? I will always be looking to end the fight with 1 blow, if there is no bridge obstruction.
   If it happens that he has “blocked”, then i will lao sao, huen sao or cut and attack again like chong choi with elbow below force. Still it is one movement. And I will Fan Sao, Flip fists meaning rain blows without stopping, till he is down.

3. One movement, one strike, there is no blocking. E.g Pak sao, we do not pak intentionally, we strike a jeung, if there is obstruction bridge, it becomes a pak. And even at pak, enter 3 gates principle means bil, or chong choi, without stopping- enter 1, enter all.

Here’s what I mean in more words

Wing Chun Kuen is to attack!!!

[I]If you are not attacking the attacker’s attack, you are not doing wingchun- WSL

His thoughts on Chi Sao, too much of it, and chasing hands

1. CHI SAU
   For example, too much emphasis on the idea of “sticking to the hands” will cause such bad habits as “chasing the hands” of the opponent and thus totally contradict one of Wing Chun’s most basic fighting principles. It is only if your attack meets with an obstruction that you have to change to attain your goal and this is where “sticky hands” comes into play, as a means to an end, that end being the winning of the fight.

In WSL’s method, its known as “attack is ALWAYS the best form of defence”.
Let’s pause here to define, in simple terms, what is meant by these three above-mentioned qualities:-
DIRECTNESS: Extending or moving in a straight line, or by the shortest route; not crooked or oblique; going straight to the point.
EFFICIENCY: Productive; with minimum waste of effort; ratio of useful work performed to energy expended.
SIMPLICITY: Easily understood or done; not complicated or elaborate; consisting of, or involving only one element of operation.[/I]

In wingchun kuen kuit, it says,

Dont force a hit, dont anyhow strike.(hence no sticking of hands, hitting of hands, chasing hands)
It also says, 1 strike 1 attack, that when you move to strike it must attack
It says also the hand that defends, also attacks(same hand), or in worst senario, one attacks with the other defending(using up 2 guns instead of 1, 6 weapons of wingchun instead of 3)
Kuen goes on to describe this art, to say, simultaneous attack and defense(the defense is in the attack)
Kuen enters 3 gates, I can hit anywhere. it says how the art is really about continuous attacks, from 1st gate into the 3 gates(many play at the first gate, the bridge and never get into first base)

It is obvious that leaving the hand out on top of each other is subjective?(like taiji taboo, why do you leave meat hanging on a rock).
It is wrong to touch hands for the sake of touching hands(I mean what on earth are these people doing???holding hands???)
Its silly to wait for the person to attack and then react based on feeling. ATTACK based on weakness- wingchun is about attacking.

Dont make chi sao= chasing hands. Its not. Its not waiting for a feeling. Its like saying waiting for something to happen. Wing Chun was used as a killing art in some lineages like Fung Siu Ching etc… It attacks suddenly and ruthlessly.

In a strike/attack, only when one encounters a obstacle, does one have to chi(to get around the hand, under, control for better position) etc… And the word chi means stick with arms, body, structure, spirit.

I qualify, this is MY personal understanding of wingchun. Italics is WSL, the rest is mine.

All good from where I am reading.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=shaolinfist;923487]I heard this story long time ago from a source who knew Sifu Yap Leong well. Yes they did meet 20yrs ago. The two had an interesting one-hand chi sau challenge initiated by Sifu Joseph Cheng. Both were seated on opposite side of the table at a Chinese cafe/restaurant. One hand chi sau became two-hands. You have to guess who won hands down or rather one/two hands up. Interestingly, I also heard of an encouter with a top Chinese sifu, whom, maybe, Shadowless Warrior will be interested to know. However I do not have confirmation of this story to enlighten you.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that story. There is always one winner in such encounters and it is difficult to win against someone with sifu Yap Leong’s caliber. However, a good source told me that Joseph Cheng had potent internal skills.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;923392]

Sister art.[/quote]

Sister art but with some important differences.

@Hendrik

What to compare or critics?

I only criticise the way Wing Chun is taught in the West 95% of the time and the resultant misunderstandings and lack of expertise one sees all over this forum.

Of course, the same is true about other kung fu styles as well because most people here in the West seem to be training their kung fu externally and they end up with something that is more similar to kickboxing than authentic kung fu. You, Hendrik, Shadow_warrior, myself (I still consider myself a beginner) and a relatively few others here in the forums are the lucky exceptions.

[Hendrik]

Sister art but with some important differences. --------

Sure, one is Shao Lin influence one is Emei influence.

To compare the difference doesnt have to get to who is better. IMHO.

I only criticise the way Wing Chun is taught in the West 95 of the time and the resultant misunderstandings and lack of expertise one sees all over this forum. ---------

To be real honest, dont criticse. whatever happen in the West is the responsibility of the East.

Wing Chun has been redefine many times since early 1900. That alone has created big issues.

Not to mention how can one so sure one is right? Those are self-rigtheousness trap.

Of course, the same is true about other kung fu styles as well because most people here in the West seem to be training their kung fu externally ------

To be real honest again, What is external? What is internal? What is the attainment of internal be able to let one justify internal training?
As soon as these question is not answered clearly it is chaos.

Just be very very frank, I dont think most know what is going on internal art. Including those who post in Youtube and make people jump around. alots of these are just demonstration tricks.

and also, Internal is based on external. Without external, there is no internal.

and they end up with something that is more similar to kickboxing than authentic kung fu. -------

As a kyokushin myself, I dont see anything wrong with similar to Kickboxing…etc. I personally love kyokushin because there is no BS. (but no BS doesnt mean one can be errogant to look down on others)

as for authentic Kung fu, what to justified that? In the old time, one is allow to study the form only after 100 days or more of standing post training to make sure the whole body is ONE piece. Do anyone does this today?

I know some one who stand for 3 years 2 hours a day and still can very smooth. Zhen Qi still not evoking well.

So? what is authentic? how many got this type of training?

On the other hand, I also take those who have no clue on TCMA and keep BS with thier speculation mind IE calling TCMA fantasy…etc. is just pure ignorance.

You, Hendrik, Shadow_warrior, myself (I still consider myself a beginner) and a relatively few others here in the forums are the lucky exceptions. -----

May be you are the master, may be you can share with us who you are and who is your teacher and lineage?

To be honest, I wouldnt put myself in your "relatively few " catagory. I am just a student with many sifus and continous studying.

In my understanding,

Until one open up all the 8 special medirians and could evoke Zhen Qi at will, one is just begin the internal art path.

so, Let’s face it, ask ourselve have we open that 8 special medirians?

So, those who read this post will said so what is so significant on the 8 speicial medirians? Chi ball fantasy again?

Nope, those are as real as gold, open up the 8 speical medirians lead one to be ready for having fast accelerate power ---- as in WCK it called Chuk ken or Keng Ken. Open up the 8 special medirians is the prerequisite of Chuk Ken – fast acceration power evoking.

Will having this type of abillity guarantee to be a good figther ? Nope, it is just said one knows how to use WCK to a certain degree.

Thus, that is the differentiation of why SLT’/SNT is SLT/SNT, not required the big hip movements or rolling …etc as from general Shao LIn art. One get beyond the big movements and hip…etc. one just accelerate at will.

In additional, WUZU have Iron palm training. You want to get close body with the WUZU player? better ready to take the palm. if you dont have the WCK fast acceleration ability, meaning be able to redirect his force within inch, forget about it.

Thus, as I said, I am just a student. I know those stuffs because The Cho family ancestor train in Iron Palm, my late sifu told me that at the time they challenge Yik Kam the redboat actor, the Iron Palm ancestor dont even dare to hit or grap others even he was a security guard in the village, for fearing of cause serious damaging to the others.
But, Yik Kam defeat him . Thus, he becomes a student of Yik Kam. without those type of kung fu, well, it is a fantasy to call oneself authentic kung fu player.

Am I an internal person? nope, I am just a student trying to be holistic. and before to be holistic, there are humanistic issue which one has to deal with if it is a TCMA training, as in my understanding.

Finally, you see, we ourselves needs to know where we stand. Facts cant lie.

[Shadow_warrior8]

[QUOTE=shaolinfist;923486]So much talk, too many teachers and yet still no essence. No wonder you had difficulty with the hard 5A guy.[/QUOTE]

Still howling at the moon?

You have NOTHING to share on this thread besides a crush on Sifu Yap.

You say a quality Wuzu guy doesnt retreat? So ya insulting Sifu Yap(your idol) as well? Because the last video I showed showed him retreating in chi sao.

You say my wuzu brother isnt quality, doesnt know hard and soft, and doesnt know Tun, To, Fao, Chum- Which when questioned you reveal you know??? You criticise Samuel Kwok on flaws and when asked to substantial, you say? Nothing.
Now you are trying to plug my Wuzu as a winner over wingchun after insulting his 30 years of skills? I politely call it a draw because of my respect for TCMA, bottomline he switched to wingchun, so go figure. And hey, at least wuzu and wingchun met in person, not on youtube.

HW108:
However, I would say that shaolinfist may have finally found an authentic and suitable for him, style of kung fu which is the Chee Kim Thong lineage of Five Ancestor Fist as taught by sifu Yap Leong.
He already said, he didnt train under Sifu Yap and is still looking for a good Wuzu master- in other words still shooting blanks about wuzu and wingchun. He hasnt found nothing, but youtube clips- Fact.

Guys you wanna boost about Wuzu go to a Wuzu thread yeah?

[Shadow_warrior8]

“”

,., , , , ,

Here, this reveals what you know of wingchun internal platform and tun to fao chum

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;923569]

,.

, , , , ,

Here, this reveals what you know of wingchun internal platform and tun to fao chum[/QUOTE]

IMHO,

1,

To be real honest, this stuffs are just very general stuffs. It , , tun to fao chum can be anything. Internal or external. This is because Swallow , Spit, sinking, and floating are a desription of action. and action is independent of internal or external.

In fact the person who wrote this might have Martial art applications experience however this writing show he doesnt have much internal training experience.

What is the evidence?

Brief translation :
While training one’s body’s bone, sinews, muscle, one needs to train the Original Qi. This original Qi is there when one was born…using the pre birth Qi combine with the breathing’s oxigen.

Sounds logical however IMHO it is still a general speculation stuffs. If you do it this way, you will get stuck.

Why? as it said in the internal training " the focus is in Yee, Not in breathing, in breathing you will be stuck."

He doesnt know how to cultivate Qi.

another example, he mention

Brief translation: This is where the TCMA’s depth and advance, Traditional WCK’s tri-start chain punch, the theory is there is wrist join, elbow join, shouldler joins… they continous be in motion in an extent and then shrink manner similar to the car’s rotation/level moments to release force.

That is physical stuffs. there is nothing advance or deep about this.

for any internal artists, one will expect the description on "Using Yee to lead Qi, Using Qi to Transport physical body ,’ in additional to the physcial, instead of JUST the description of the join movements.

2, to be real frank, in my humble opinon, this is a present day general screw up on example WCner trying to link themself to internal training while dont really understand what is going on in the internal training and have no lineage trainsmission of the WC internal knowledge but grouping something in the modern days and try to upgrade thier WCK. Not knowing, it doesnt work this way. unless the person who wrote it really have the experience.

AS I told Rene at one point, we today can check the “time Stamp” and figure out when it is likely that the stuffs are created.

3, So, what is internal? Certainly this article above dont said it. Not to mention, it is far from a solid article on the internal subject.

and again, dont blame the west but take responsible.

If the East can even straigth things up in additional let the West go whatever the West pretending to be expert like to do.

IE :

via my experience of WingChunpedia’s so called researcher purposely set boubt to question Yik Kam’s teaching in this and other forum years ago.

This is destroying ancestors’ teaching according to TCMA tradition. It is called. “”

Dont Cry when the other call TCMA fantasy. Because beside fantasy, there is no substance when all the ancestors teaching got destroy because of all the self proclaim expert who is not expert at all.

Just some thoughts.

[Shadow_warrior8]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;923592]IMHO,

1,

To be real honest, this stuffs are just very general stuffs. It , , tun to fao chum can be anything. Internal or external. This is because Swallow , Spit, sinking, and floating are a desription of action. and action is independent of internal or external.

In fact the person who wrote this might have Martial art applications experience however this writing show he doesnt have much internal training experience.

What is the evidence?

Brief translation :
While training one’s body’s bone, sinews, muscle, one needs to train the Original Qi. This original Qi is there when one was born…using the pre birth Qi combine with the breathing’s oxigen.

Sounds logical however IMHO it is still a general speculation stuffs. If you do it this way, you will get stuck.

Why? as it said in the internal training " the focus is in Yee, Not in breathing, in breathing you will be stuck."

He doesnt know how to cultivate Qi.

another example, he mention

Brief translation: This is where the TCMA’s depth and advance, Traditional WCK’s tri-start chain punch, the theory is there is wrist join, elbow join, shouldler joins… they continous be in motion in an extent and then shrink manner similar to the car’s rotation/level moments to release force.

That is physical stuffs. there is nothing advance or deep about this.

for any internal artists, one will expect the " description on Using Yee to lead Qi, Using Qi to Transport physical body ,’ in additional to the physcial, instead of JUST the description of the join movements.

2, to be real frank, in my humble opinon, this is a present day general screw up WCner trying to link themself to internal training while dont really understand what is going on in the internal training and have no lineage trainsmission of the WC internal knowledge but grouping something in the modern days and try to upgrade thier WCK. Not knowing, it doesnt work this way. unless the person who wrote it really have the experience.

AS I told Rene at one point, we today can check the “time Stamp” and figure out when it is likely that the stuffs are created.

So, what is internal? Certainly this article above dont said it. Not to mention, it is far from a solid article on the internal subject.

and again, dont blame the west but take responsible.

If the East can even straigth things up in additional let the West go whatever the West pretending to be expert like to do.
IE :
via my experience of WingChunpedia purposely set boubt to question Yik Kam’s teaching in this and other forum years ago.
This is destroying ancestors’ teaching according to TCMA tradition. It is called. “”

Dont Cry when the other call TCMA fantasy. Because beside fantasy, there is no substance when all the ancestors teaching got destroy because of all the self proclaim expert.
Just some thoughts.[/QUOTE]

Hendrik Senior, this was not meant to be a article but a short brief, there is heaps more, but that wasnt the point of the post, it was to address the claim wingchun is missing internal training of tun, to, fao, chum or any kind of internal mechanics as claimed by some.

This gentleman who is pretty well known in the mainland circles wrote this, and has studied

0

There exist now, as seen in the other thread, many other platforms of internal wingchun, maybe due to cross influences, authentic or not, I cannot comment- But wingchun is practiced in many lineages as a internal MA, that is undeniable.

Out of respect for TCMA and the seniors of the lineages, I wouldnt say anything more, but respect different TCMA view points from authentic sources. You seniors have done more for wingchun for decades, and I am just catching up to contribute.

[Hendrik]

this was not meant to be a article but a short brief, there is heaps more, but that wasnt the point of the post, it was to address the claim wingchun is missing internal training of tun, to, fao, chum or any kind of internal mechanics as claimed by some. --------------

Honestly,

In Chinese, it said, the expert showing just one hand, one will know it is or it is not.

Choose something which is it to post. Dont choose anything which is it is not to post. otherwise you will have a very difficult time defending others fantasy.

This gentleman who is pretty well known in the mainland circles wrote this, and has studied -----

No offense on anyone, however, when it comes to art, it got nothing to do with Well known. either one has it or not. Tittle and position doesnt matter. IMHO

Out of respect for TCMA and the seniors of the lineages, I wouldnt say anything more, but respect different TCMA view points from authentic sources. You seniors have done more for wingchun for decades, and I am just catching up to contribute.-----

IMHO,

You dont have to trap yourself on respect on senior and lineages or rank…

Done WCK for decades doesnt mean one know the art by default.

Be honest, and straight is the teaching of the ancestors.

In WCK, it is said, Learning has no senior or junior, those who has mastering is the teacher.

One must keen in learning, keen is examine the practice and the outcome, keen in asking if one deosnt know without making assumption.

That is because the reality is

can what one present develop the ability, does one have the ability when needed?
one has a responsibility to not mislead others.

As I told those in SEA, I go by “book or the Kuen Kuit of Yik Kam” I careless if you jumping around today study with my siheng tomorrow with my sifu, the day after tommorow with my sigung. The question is " can you do it as what the Book said and according to the Book" if not, move side way disregard of rank. IMHO.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hendrik Senior

, was conditions for me to being initiated into internal arts teachings. As such this is not a promise I intend to break.

I have been told by a mainland china master,
, ,
I have found this to be true of all TCMA lineages

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;923610]

I have been told by a mainland china master,
, ,
I have found this to be true of all TCMA lineages[/QUOTE]

It is true that

, ,
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.

However, the above cannot be the excuse of something doesnt make sense.

Chinese Jing Qi Shen Training has been there for more then thousand of years.
One can have different method and different method, however, one cannot violate the basic nature principle.

In the case of your qoute above, the person is confuse on the basic nature principle.

Thus, one can use the saying

, ,
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.

only after one fullfil the nature principle.

One must not using the saying as an alabi or convenient excuse of the in complete or distorted teaching.

Again, That is the reason I dont buy lots of YOUTUBE stuffs showing about internal.

in the west, it is always convenient to say, " that is your interpretation. this is mine intepretation. and all intepretation is equal." That is great in words but it is a totally misleading.

This type of alabi or convernient is actually destroying the art.

The basic training principle/process of Internal art got to be:

1, quiting the mind,

2, open the energy center

3, accumulate the qi.

4, open up the channels.

5, entering into deep silence, let go let god or leading the qi for different applications purpose.

Independent of

, ,
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.

The five above got to be there be it they arrange it differently or in a different combination or different emphasis.

For SLT/SNT, yes, people do these 5 while they are practicing SLT. That is the internal platform of SLT/SNT. different lineage can do it differently but all of the 5 needs to be there in order to call it a holistic training.

PS. , ( respect the teacher and humanistic, give credit to the source) is a must for TCMA, However, that also cant be a reason to be manipulate by others.

if one is not clear on what they are learning and speculate it. that is not respect the teacher and humanistic because the wise teacher will not like Yes man who looks respect and give credit but is damaging the art via mis lead others on what is what.

Thus, again, the ancient ancestors is very specific and detail, one cant selectively using , , , , for a good reason without knowing the facts and present the facts.

We all need to be carefull with these stuffs. Not simple stuffs.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;923541]Sister art but with some important differences. --------

Sure, one is Shao Lin influence one is Emei influence.

To compare the difference doesnt have to get to who is better. IMHO.[/quote]

You are correct even if on some level one of them will be better than the other. Which one? I am not qualified to say. However, it seems that Yap Leong sifu’s 5 Ancestor Fist is perhaps superior to Externally trained Wing Chun that is so common nowadays here in the West.

@Hendrik

To be real honest, dont criticse. whatever happen in the West is the responsibility of the East.

I understand what you are saying here but I would also add that some so called “sifus” in the West have been teaching this art in very irresponsible ways causing all sorts of problems.

@Hendrik

Not to mention how can one so sure one is right? Those are self-rigtheousness trap.

I am right withing the reality that I see and I see the sad state of Wing Chun here in the West. One can even see this when one reads other posters’ remarks about this art. Most of these people see TCMA as fantasy, at least on some levels.

@Hendrik

To be real honest again, What is external? What is internal? What is the attainment of internal be able to let one justify internal training?
As soon as these question is not answered clearly it is chaos.

All I know is that most of the Wing Chun I see nowadays is NOT internal. So the definition of internals is clear enough for me to see and recognize an art that does not practice in an internal manner.

Just like when I look at some karate practitioners then I see that they don’t practice internally. There is no softness, no sensitivity and no listening abilities. Of course, the internals go deeper than that but then you should ask me about that in a few years time.

@Hendrik

Just be very very frank, I dont think most know what is going on internal art. Including those who post in Youtube and make people jump around. alots of these are just demonstration tricks.

I agree.

@Hendrik

and also, Internal is based on external. Without external, there is no internal.

Yin and Yang principles.

@Hendrik

As a kyokushin myself, I dont see anything wrong with similar to Kickboxing…etc. I personally love kyokushin because there is no BS. (but no BS doesnt mean one can be errogant to look down on others)

That is very true but that is what a lot of people here in the forums do when they practice kickboxing and then go on to call it “improved or functional” kung fu.

@Hendrik

as for authentic Kung fu, what to justified that? In the old time, one is allow to study the form only after 100 days or more of standing post training to make sure the whole body is ONE piece. Do anyone does this today?

Unfortunately not.

@Hendrik

I know some one who stand for 3 years 2 hours a day and still can very smooth. Zhen Qi still not evoking well.

So? what is authentic? how many got this type of training?

Then we have less authentic and even less authentic. When some people here describe their so called kung fu training here in the forum I conclude that they are NOT practising kung fu but just some fancy kickboxing. That means that they are not even less authentic.

@Hendrik

On the other hand, I also take those who have no clue on TCMA and keep BS with thier speculation mind IE calling TCMA fantasy…etc. is just pure ignorance.

They are ignorant because they have never practiced kung fu authentically and have just done some fancy kickboxing with someone who calls himself a “sifu”. Thus they will have had an external view of the martial arts.

@Hendrik

May be you are the master, may be you can share with us who you are and who is your teacher and lineage?

I am no master, I am just a beginner. If you are really interested in my lineage then please PM me and I will provide you with the details.

I only provide details about myself to genuine kung fu people as recently some idiot took my sifus name and made up lies about me here in the forum while dragging my sifu’s real name all over the place. The idiot I am talking about is called Lkfmdc and he was helped by his friend Sanjuro ronin.

Lkfmdc calls himself a “sifu” as well…lol. It seems it is fashionable to call oneself “sifu” in this forum. Sanjuro ronin does not call himself anything, but I have a few names for him but I wont say them because I am too polite.

@Hendrik

To be honest, I wouldnt put myself in your "relatively few " catagory. I am just a student with many sifus and continous studying.

Well read some of the other posts in this kung fu forum and you will see that more than 95 percent here practice kung fu externally. That means their approach is incomplete. Many of them call the internals and other aspects of TCMA that they don’t understand, fantasy!

Furthermore, most “kung fu” schools out there don’t actually teach kung fu but some mish mash. It is difficult to find real, profound kung fu training nowadays, in the West.

@Hendrik

In my understanding,

Until one open up all the 8 special medirians and could evoke Zhen Qi at will, one is just begin the internal art path.

I have been taught various chi kung exercises as a part of my training and I suppose that in time they should help open up my meridians or maybe I will have to learn higher level exercises to open my meridians in the correct manner?

@Hendrik

so, Let’s face it, ask ourselve have we open that 8 special medirians?

I haven’t, but I know that my chi kung exercises have helped me to be more relaxed during my training and more focused.

@Hendrik

So, those who read this post will said so what is so significant on the 8 speicial medirians? Chi ball fantasy again?

Not me.

@Hendrik

Nope, those are as real as gold, open up the 8 speical medirians lead one to be ready for having fast accelerate power ---- as in WCK it called Chuk ken or Keng Ken. Open up the 8 special medirians is the prerequisite of Chuk Ken – fast acceration power evoking.

Will having this type of abillity guarantee to be a good figther ? Nope, it is just said one knows how to use WCK to a certain degree.

Thus, that is the differentiation of why SLT’/SNT is SLT/SNT, not required the big hip movements or rolling …etc as from general Shao LIn art. One get beyond the big movements and hip…etc. one just accelerate at will.

Is this another reference to “Idependent Power”?

@Hendrik

In additional, WUZU have Iron palm training. You want to get close body with the WUZU player? better ready to take the palm. if you dont have the WCK fast acceleration ability, meaning be able to redirect his force within inch, forget about it.

This is going back to what I was saying in previous posts where I said that when Shaolinfist compared Sifu Yap Leong’s Five Ancestor Fist with Wing Chun, he was comparing it to the way Wing Chun is trained in most schools in the West. Which means incomplete Wing Chun which in your definition would not have the WCK fast acceleration ability.

@Hendrik

Thus, as I said, I am just a student. I know those stuffs because The Cho family ancestor train in Iron Palm, my late sifu told me that at the time they challenge Yik Kam the redboat actor, the Iron Palm ancestor dont even dare to hit or grap others even he was a security guard in the village, for fearing of cause serious damaging to the others.
But, Yik Kam defeat him . Thus, he becomes a student of Yik Kam. without those type of kung fu, well, it is a fantasy to call oneself authentic kung fu player.

I call myself an authentic kung fu student and hopefully one day I will be qualified to call myself an authentic kung fu exponent or player. Authentic Kung fu students cannot be expected to have the suprior skills of authentic kung fu experts or sifus.

@Hendrik

Am I an internal person? nope, I am just a student trying to be holistic. and before to be holistic, there are humanistic issue which one has to deal with if it is a TCMA training, as in my understanding.

Well another aspect of kung fu training that many people here don’t understand is that it is a holistic training approach, however I would say that your authentic training makes you more internal than most people here who claim to train kung fu.

@Hendrik

Finally, you see, we ourselves needs to know where we stand. Facts cant lie.

I am doing my best to understand where I stand but in time and after a lot more kung fu training my understanding will hopefully be better.

[Hardwork108]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;923636]It is true that

, ,
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.

However, the above cannot be the excuse of something doesnt make sense.

Chinese Jing Qi Shen Training has been there for more then thousand of years.
One can have different method and different method, however, one cannot violate the basic nature principle.

In the case of your qoute above, the person is confuse on the basic nature principle.

Thus, one can use the saying

, ,
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.

only after one fullfil the nature principle.

One must not using the saying as an alabi or convenient excuse of the in complete or distorted teaching.

Again, That is the reason I dont buy lots of YOUTUBE stuffs showing about internal.

in the west, it is always convenient to say, " that is your interpretation. this is mine intepretation. and all intepretation is equal." That is great in words but it is a totally misleading.

This type of alabi or convernient is actually destroying the art.

The basic training principle/process of Internal art got to be:

1, quiting the mind,

2, open the energy center

3, accumulate the qi.

4, open up the channels.

5, entering into deep silence, let go let god or leading the qi for different applications purpose.

Independent of

, ,
Translate: every teacher has different direction, different training method.

The five above got to be there be it they arrange it differently or in a different combination or different emphasis.

For SLT/SNT, yes, people do these 5 while they are practicing SLT. That is the internal platform of SLT/SNT. different lineage can do it differently but all of the 5 needs to be there in order to call it a holistic training.

PS. , ( respect the teacher and humanistic, give credit to the source) is a must for TCMA, However, that also cant be a reason to be manipulate by others.

if one is not clear on what they are learning and speculate it. that is not respect the teacher and humanistic because the wise teacher will not like Yes man who looks respect and give credit but is damaging the art via mis lead others on what is what.

Thus, again, the ancient ancestors is very specific and detail, one cant selectively using , , , , for a good reason without knowing the facts and present the facts.

We all need to be carefull with these stuffs. Not simple stuffs.[/QUOTE]

It is so good to read your posts. You make clear a lot things and reenforce other things that I have learn but not come across in this forum.

Thank you.

[Hendrik]

You are correct even if on some level one of them will be better than the other. Which one? I am not qualified to say. However, it seems that Yap Leong sifu’s 5 Ancestor Fist is perhaps superior to Externally trained Wing Chun that is so common nowadays here in the West.-------------

as my late sifu Cho Hong Choy taugh me on the rule of Kong Sau.

Anyone lost is because of his training is not deep enough. Not the style.

Thus, I would say Sifu Yap doesnt represent Wuzu and who ever compete with him is not represent Wing Chun either. Those are thier own personal testing of skill.

IMHO, that must not be conclude into “Yap Leong sifu’s 5 Ancestor Fist is perhaps superior to Externally trained Wing Chun”

and further more not related to WCK teaching in the West.

I understand what you are saying here but I would also add that some so called “sifus” in the West have been teaching this art in very irresponsible ways causing all sorts of problems. -------

IMHO, one must learn to behave properly instead of looking at others issues.

All I know is that most of the Wing Chun I see nowadays is NOT internal. So the definition of internals is clear enough for me to see and recognize an art that does not practice in an internal manner. -------

Again what is internal?
care to share the process of what do you exactly train in
which lineage are you from
where is this process you train in comes from
and what evidence in the history of WCK one can based this process on?

IMHO, anyone claim Internal need to present their legitimate in the lineage they train in, where is the art from. they can said, they invent it now or they can said it is from 1800. all has to be clear state.

I am no master, I am just a beginner. If you are really interested in my lineage then please PM me and I will provide you with the details. ----

Please do not use the PM. please provide the detail for everyone.

As the saying in Chinese, one needs to be Kuang Ming Zhen Da or open and straight forward. One doesnt have to be always right because human is not perfect. But one needs to be open and straight forward.

Nothing needs to be hide because there is nothing cant tell others.

I have been taught various chi kung exercises as a part of my training and I suppose that in time they should help open up my meridians or maybe I will have to learn higher level exercises to open my meridians in the correct manner? -----

IMHO, until we have open up our medirian, what is good to talk about or speculate something we have no clue?

There is no such thing as may be, I suppose in time they should help open up my meridians.
One got to be clear of the cause and effect. It is not a guessing game.

I haven’t, but I know that my chi kung exercises have helped me to be more relaxed during my training and more focused. ----------

IMHO, relax doesnt mean a thing. seriously. sleeping can relax too.

Analogy to if a person is going to san francisco, he needs to know the direction, which high way needs to be taken and where is he in the mean time.

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;923678]It is so good to read your posts. You make clear a lot things and reenforce other things that I have learn but not come across in this forum.

[/QUOTE]

It is clear because that is the way how the ancestors teach. Nothing fantasy.

if you all really love WCK, and dont like others to be mislead, you need to behave clean and open and speak only what you can attain. In my humble opinion.

if one dont even have a clear understanding on what one does, forget about the advance stuffs or fighting. ONe just doesnt have the basic to even get the basic correct and solid.