Anyone have experience rolling with tai chi people?
I did for the first time about a week ago.
I really liked how they used circular movement to dissolve force and were up rooting me a bit however I felt like I got more strikes but it was interesting either way.
In my experience, the moment that you get hold of your Taiji opponent, the Taiji push hand soon turn into wrestling match. Should Taiji PH be different from wrestling? Why do you even need Taiji PH if it’s no different from wrestling? I just don’t have answer for that.
When they circle I release and strike. They say I’m doing it wrong…:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1148618]When they circle I release and strike. They say I’m doing it wrong…:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Haha Phil…they are the ones doing it wrong. Tai Chi has the same goals as WC in many ways. Be mindfull of the center, defend your own and KNOW where his is.
If they are circling…it should be for a purpose (other than just to circle) like extending your energy or warding you off.
If you are able to release and strike then they are just plain poor because they should be listening and following you.
Obviously, it’s because whoever you were touching hands with, IS NOT at your skill level and also, they probably don’t ever accelerate during push hands and lack the skill to follow you.
But, please don’t “ROLL” all Tai Chi people into one ball. haha Pun intended.
[QUOTE=mjw;1148595]Anyone have experience rolling with tai chi people?
I did for the first time about a week ago.
I really liked how they used circular movement to dissolve force and were up rooting me a bit however I felt like I got more strikes but it was interesting either way.[/QUOTE]
Tai Chi is strictly stand up…once you hit the ground, connection is lost. I don’t care if i’m sticking my neck out and saying it but that’s the truth.
Now if you just mean stand up;
ie stand up = strike, displace, lock and such and such…WHILST remaining standing up, then yeah TC still has a chance. But not from when you’re on your back…or knees for that matter.
At that point, escape and stand up or suffer…but don’t try to say it’s still TC.
Yup, my opinion.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1148618]When they circle I release and strike. They say I’m doing it wrong…:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
You are doing it right. You are not following their game, you impose your own…
[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1148629] . . . You are not following their game, you impose your own…[/QUOTE]
Good saying. I’m going to use that. 
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1148618]When they circle I release and strike. They say I’m doing it wrong…:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Which is why stopped training Taiji on a regular basis. Most of them were sissy, weed-smoking hippies who would rather feel their “qi” then train in actual fighting technique.
But that is my experience from dealing with Taiji people in California; actually I think John knows the guys I’m mostly talking about from Santa Barbara.
I touch hands with them all the time at Columbus Park in china town, NYC. Not just Tai Chi though - Lung Ying, Bak Mei, Ba Gua and the many other internal arts that show up there on the weekends.
[QUOTE=Fa Xing;1148693]Which is why stopped training Taiji on a regular basis. Most of them were sissy, weed-smoking hippies who would rather feel their “qi” then train in actual fighting technique.
But that is my experience from dealing with Taiji people in California; actually I think John knows the guys I’m mostly talking about from Santa Barbara.[/QUOTE]
Too many people train Taiji for health in California. 
[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1148702]I touch hands with them all the time at Columbus Park in china town, NYC. Not just Tai Chi though - Lung Ying, Bak Mei, Ba Gua and the many other internal arts that show up there on the weekends.[/QUOTE]
I teach a Wing Chun class in Columbus Park on Sundays from 3-5pm. Well, at least until it gets too cold. You should stop by sometime.
Tai Chi was developed for fighting. The original Yang family was teaching the art to both the Manchurian Noblemen and Imperial Guards. I don’t think the Imperial Guards were much interested in just being healthy hippies.
In the Tai Chi system, there are strikes, throws and some grappling. When done properly, it is hard to land strikes on a Tai Chi dude.
The main strategy of Tai Chi fighting is to be like a ghost; to be “not” there when the opponent attacks. The softness is not just to disipate the incoming force, but also to not give anything away (if the opponent cannot sense you correctly, he wouldn’t know how to deal with you), while completely covering the opponent’s attacks, and to fool the opponent’s senses.
The study of Tai Chi focuses on knowing yourself, knowing your enemy, and knowing the interactions including force, reaction, physiological responses and psychology. While the model is “Qi” based, most of the effects can be explained scientifically. There is NO magic.
If I have to describe Martial Arts as “cooking”; then Tai Chi would be the study of the science of cooking while (Kulo 22) Wing Chun is the master recipe book.
Cheers,
John
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1148618]When they circle I release and strike. They say I’m doing it wrong…:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Strictly speaking, when done properly the circling is done via the change in force vectors with very little movement and minimal change in the quantity of force. Why? because I don’t want the opponent to know what I am doing. If I move, you will sense the weakness and trap/strike me. If I do not move, I am not letting you know how to deal with me, and give you the false impression that you are gaining. While I undermine your balance (to be as sneaky as possible). I will then attack when you least expect it and when the balance is gone.
Cheers,
John
[QUOTE=Subitai;1148622]Haha Phil…they are the ones doing it wrong. Tai Chi has the same goals as WC in many ways. Be mindfull of the center, defend your own and KNOW where his is.
If they are circling…it should be for a purpose (other than just to circle) like extending your energy or warding you off.
If you are able to release and strike then they are just plain poor because they should be listening and following you.
Obviously, it’s because whoever you were touching hands with, IS NOT at your skill level and also, they probably don’t ever accelerate during push hands and lack the skill to follow you.
But, please don’t “ROLL” all Tai Chi people into one ball. haha Pun intended.[/QUOTE]
Agreed 100% with this post. You can’t assume all tai chi practitioners are like that. Tai Chi is like Wing Chun, also in that most of the practitioners have no clue about how to use it in actual combat, using its principles and distinct skill sets.
I didn’t roll as in wrestling or do their ball game it was more or less mini chi sao with out rolling almost like wrist to wrist if you know what I mean since I don’t know the ball rolling and they didn’t know WC rolling.
I kind of felt like their fook type hand was heavy and they liked to basically hold my arm with their hand which allowed for a lot of pak das to get in etc. But what I thought was good was when I seized the elbow rather than shoot the other hand through like I always do they collapsed it and did this weird kind or tai chi ball roll and regained the center.
They seem to like to uproot and push where I like to strike and uproot when I can but I’d rather take a shot. The one guy I saw again and he seems very fascinated with WC now coming from some type of karate back ground prior…
**I’m also not saying that all tai chi guys are like this i’ve only touched hands with 2 now not counting my sifu who did tai chi b4 WC but it was insightful
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1148778]Tai Chi was developed for fighting. The original Yang family was teaching the art to both the Manchurian Noblemen and Imperial Guards. I don’t think the Imperial Guards were much interested in just being healthy hippies.
In the Tai Chi system, there are strikes, throws and some grappling. When done properly, it is hard to land strikes on a Tai Chi dude.
The main strategy of Tai Chi fighting is to be like a ghost; to be “not” there when the opponent attacks. The softness is not just to disipate the incoming force, but also to not give anything away (if the opponent cannot sense you correctly, he wouldn’t know how to deal with you), while completely covering the opponent’s attacks, and to fool the opponent’s senses.
The study of Tai Chi focuses on knowing yourself, knowing your enemy, and knowing the interactions including force, reaction, physiological responses and psychology. While the model is “Qi” based, most of the effects can be explained scientifically. There is NO magic.
If I have to describe Martial Arts as “cooking”; then Tai Chi would be the study of the science of cooking while (Kulo 22) Wing Chun is the master recipe book.
Cheers,
John[/QUOTE]
Trust me I tried to introduce more combative aspects to some here in California. I just got weird and/or disapproving looks for it. Some were even afraid to do the martial arts side of it out of fear of being attacked in the park while practicing. Why do a martial art then?
I have decided after getting no where to move onto Jeet Kune Do, and at least bring the attributes I’ve gained from Taiji to that.
[QUOTE=Fa Xing;1148917]Trust me I tried to introduce more combative aspects to some here in California. I just got weird and/or disapproving looks for it. Some were even afraid to do the martial arts side of it out of fear of being attacked in the park while practicing. Why do a martial art then? . . . .[/QUOTE]
I was in L.A. in 2006 and I found some people like that. There are people like that everywhere. But, there are some hardcore martial artists in L.A. Dale and Ernie come to mind.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1148779]Strictly speaking, when done properly the circling is done via the change in force vectors with very little movement and minimal change in the quantity of force. Why? because I don’t want the opponent to know what I am doing. If I move, you will sense the weakness and trap/strike me. If I do not move, I am not letting you know how to deal with me, and give you the false impression that you are gaining. While I undermine your balance (to be as sneaky as possible). I will then attack when you least expect it and when the balance is gone.
Cheers,
John[/QUOTE]
Precisely!
Tai Chi is strictly stand up…once you hit the ground, connection is lost. I don’t care if i’m sticking my neck out and saying it but that’s the truth.
IOW, same as Wing Chun.
Josh Waitzkin, author of “The Art of Learning” was World Taiji push hands champion. What he did sounds more like good-quality greco-roman wrestling than anything else.
Yeah, it’s pretty obvious the OP wasn’t talking about rolling ina grappling context.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1148704]I teach a Wing Chun class in Columbus Park on Sundays from 3-5pm. Well, at least until it gets too cold. You should stop by sometime.[/QUOTE]
Would love to one of these days.