End the Debate... What makes a Style?

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1030850]I like to call it “switching hands” theory.

  • Your opponnet blocks your offense hand.
  • Your defense hand re-block your opponent’s block.
  • Your offense hand will be free again to attack again.[/QUOTE]

Yes, this is a very big thing for us.

And the timing and intent of the motions is what will make it ou lou choi theory.

Sifu Lai sometimes would say, “The first attack is not the real attack.” In one sense, the first attack can be ou theory. It is just to set up the real attack.

-N-

[QUOTE=-N-;1030852]“The first attack is not the real attack.” [/QUOTE]

Agree! The 1st attack is to “build arm bridge”. The 2nd and 3rd attack is to pass over the bridge and then enter. The mantis system uses this principle in great detail. The SC system expands this principle on the “build leg brdge” such as inside and outside shin bite.

[QUOTE=-N-;1030851]We like to see contact, control, take (intercept, control, strike) even not just hands, wrist, elbow. And even not just physical.[/QUOTE]
You only need 1 contact point for strike. You will need 2 or 3 contact points for throw. It’s a bit harder to be able to obtain all those contact points in combat speed. Everytime that you have chance for your throw, you always have your chance for your strike. The other way around is not always true.

This is an example of 3 contact points throw (left hand, right hand, right leg) front cut (Osoto Gari). If you can do this, your right hand will have no problem to punch on your opponent’s face.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

[QUOTE=-N-;1030849]The technique is not the system. Ou lou choi is not just the technique. So “embodied” is a good term.
[/QUOTE]

Really, the whole point of this thread is to get people out of the “TMA is Crap mindset” and to offer what I think is a solution. We all know people that can bust out every form and know every theory - but, in a sparring situation they do nothing that resembles any mantis technique that they’ve been repeating throughout all of their training. I’m not OK with that because that’s what’s killing TMA. I think that with mastering in a live situation the techniques of “Ou Lau Choi, Tu Sau, and Diu Sau” you can pull off any move or technique that’s in the system. I don’t think it’s too much to ask that “Masters” find ways to drill those techniques so that they’re live and spontaneous and can be done by students in a pressured situation. I also think that every TCMA has a very limited set of core techniques that they should master. I just ask people to define what those are and concentrate on them.

I hate to always fall back on my Judo training, but do you know that by mastering 3 beginner throws it leads you in to be able to do about 100 different throws?

In my opinion, Master Ou Lau Choi, Tu Sau, and Diu Sau - you can do all of mantis.

[QUOTE=MightyB;1031038]I don’t think it’s too much to ask that “Masters” find ways to drill those techniques so that they’re live and spontaneous and can be done by students in a pressured situation. I also think that every TCMA has a very limited set of core techniques that they should master. I just ask people to define what those are and concentrate on them.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

How was that done when you were were training Mantis?

[QUOTE=-N-;1031145]Agreed.

How was that done when you were were training Mantis?[/QUOTE]

Probably the same as everybody else. Drilling then Sparring. But, just like my Dangers of Alive thread, I tended to build on the easy things to do and neglected those core mantis techniques. I had better success training mantis techniques through controlled playing hands drills. Those were similar to BJJ “Chess” training, or Judo “give and take” drills… where in mantis, two of us would work together and do a technique, then counter, all based on feel, on a controlled pace. If we felt “muddy” (sloppy, no technique) we’d start over.

[QUOTE=MightyB;1031038]
In my opinion, Master Ou Lau Choi, Tu Sau, and Diu Sau - you can do all of mantis.[/QUOTE]

In the style I do, there are the eight hands, they tend to be the entry points or transition points for everything else.

I have been, for the last month, training a class on one of those hand techniques. Each class, for two hours, they’re working that technique into three different throws and one strike, as they’ve gotten used to the basics of one throw they partner with someone wearing heavy gloves, then they apply against strikes, which technique depending on which hand, lead or cross, their opponent decides to use, and which relative footing(both people with right foot forward, or an opponent whose stance is mirrored, for example, orthodox vs. southpaw) is used.

Next month, different hand technique from the eight will be worked with what they already know. Three of the eight are most common to apply, so those three will be taught first.

As I said in another thread, the students pay for their lessons by taking turns wearing the gloves for me to drill defense and entries for three minute rounds, the stronger guys first, trying to wear me out for the newer people. This gives the students the chance to work their basic strikes and footwork, as well as seeing that someone more experienced is still a viable target: I don’t want any student to get in the habit of thinking of anyone as beyond hitting, and, in the context of a drill, sometimes I will get hit, especially right now, with the heat and humidity being what it is, after a long workout. I think one of the worst things to ever happen to some kung fu schools is the teachers not crossing hands because being seen as less than perfect is not an option. Crossing hands improves us by revealing what we have failed to account for, remove the experience and you don’t remove the failure, you only hide it.

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1031562]In the style I do, there are the eight hands, they tend to be the entry points or transition points for everything else.

I have been, for the last month, training a class on one of those hand techniques. Each class, for two hours, they’re working that technique into three different throws and one strike, as they’ve gotten used to the basics of one throw they partner with someone wearing heavy gloves, then they apply against strikes, which technique depending on which hand, lead or cross, their opponent decides to use, and which relative footing(both people with right foot forward, or an opponent whose stance is mirrored, for example, orthodox vs. southpaw) is used.

Next month, different hand technique from the eight will be worked with what they already know. Three of the eight are most common to apply, so those three will be taught first.

As I said in another thread, the students pay for their lessons by taking turns wearing the gloves for me to drill defense and entries for three minute rounds, the stronger guys first, trying to wear me out for the newer people. This gives the students the chance to work their basic strikes and footwork, as well as seeing that someone more experienced is still a viable target: I don’t want any student to get in the habit of thinking of anyone as beyond hitting, and, in the context of a drill, sometimes I will get hit, especially right now, with the heat and humidity being what it is, after a long workout. I think one of the worst things to ever happen to some kung fu schools is the teachers not crossing hands because being seen as less than perfect is not an option. Crossing hands improves us by revealing what we have failed to account for, remove the experience and you don’t remove the failure, you only hide it.[/QUOTE]

This. I will go a step further and say that many of these instructors put themselves up on a pedestal and don’t cross hands because of fear of losing respect and/or students and simply an inflated ego. Every instructor I ever had crossed hands and sparred, as did I when I taught. Everyone gets hit, and this is a lesson all students should learn.

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1031562] being seen as less than perfect is not an option. [/QUOTE][QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1031635] fear of losing respect… [/QUOTE]

It’s a lose-lose-lose-lose situation no matter which way you go.

A: Dear master! I don’t think that I’ll come back to your class any more.
B: Why? You have been with me for the past 10 years

Case 1: teacher is too good:

A: In the past 10 years, you have always beaten me 15-0. None of those moves that you taught me can work on you. You have totally destroyed my self-confidence for all these years. I find it just doesn’t benefit me in any way.
B: :frowning:

Case 2: teacher is good but not good enough:

A: You taught me 200 moves in the past 10 years but I have seen you only use 20 moves when I wrestled with you. If you can’t use the other 180 moves on me, I don’t think you are qualified to be my teacher.
B: :frowning:

Case 3: teacher is just a bit better than student:

A: You taught me effortless throws but I have seen you use a lot of force when you throw me. If you can’t throw me “effortless”, I don’t think you are qualified to be my teacher.
B: :frowning:

Case 4: teacher is bad:

A: Today we wrestled 15 rounds and I can beat you 15-0. What make you think that you are qualified to be my teacher any more?
B: :frowning:

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1031706]It’s a lose-lose-lose-lose situation no matter which way you go.[/quote]

I can see where you’re coming from to some extent.

Case 1: teacher is too good:

A: In the past 10 years, you have always beaten me 15-0. None of those moves that you taught me can work on you. You have totally destroyed my self-confidence for all these years. I find it just doesn’t benefit me in any way.
B: :frowning:

The way I’m trying to avoid this pitfall(just pounding on students) is that, if they glove up with me, it’s so that I am drilling techniques. Thus, they have a number of offensive moves they are allowed(and are working), while I only have certain responses I’m trying to work. Thus, they get to see how I’m training, they’re largely training the same way, they are constantly refining their basic strikes, but are not put into the fire and demoralized. I also constantly tell anyone “Don’t be demoralized from being hit or making an error, or you’re making a second error. You make a mistake, that may work against you, or it may make your opponent do something they wouldn’t normally think to do in a fight, and open an opportunity for you. You don’t get to define the entire fight, if it’s a fight worth having, and neither do your mistakes necessarily define the whole fight. You have to train being unphased even when things seem bad. It’s just something you work and improve at.”

Additionally, most of my students come from a mma background, and are young and in great shape, so my old @ss has to work pretty hard. Short exchanges I might dominate, but rounds are different, successive rounds more so, and, by limiting my options, they get room to grow, and I get to hone different aspects of my system.

Thus, if they get to box, and I can solely set up throws, and we both know this, I’m gonna come out looking good sometimes, but I’m gonna get hit.

Case 2: teacher is good but not good enough:

A: You taught me 200 moves in the past 10 years but I have seen you only use 20 moves when I wrestled with you. If you can’t use the other 180 moves on me, I don’t think you are qualified to be my teacher.
B: :frowning:

Definitely see where you’re coming from on this one. Being able to use four moves does not a teacher make. This is where I have found it useful to be aware of what other people in my style and similar styles use well. There are moves from my style I’d mostly use against the rare guy taller than me, but that shorter fighters in my system use as bread and butter. There’s moves that I use that the shorter guys don’t. I keep aware of these.

Further, because of reforms in my system, until now, few knew the whole system in the sense of having the form for study, and fewer still actually studied it, so the awareness of who uses what move was limited to a very small number. This is what I tell my students, “I don’t really care about teaching, though I enjoy working with you guys. My main training partner moved, and so I need more heads working the problem, and the only way to get that is to lay the whole system at your feet and work together on it. I want questioning and testing, not compliance. I want more heads working the system, and I want diverse training partners with varied backgrounds, whether they study this system or not.”

This is not a class for pay. These students don’t need new adventures every week. I don’t need to tell them that the fun adventures of constant meaningless changes and fun times are not comparable to contact in any way, shape, or form, nor nearly as adventurous or fun. So, it seems to work well so far.

Case 3: teacher is just a bit better than student:

A: You taught me effortless throws but I have seen you use a lot of force when you throw me. If you can’t throw me “effortless”, I don’t think you are qualified to be my teacher.
B: :frowning:

I applaud any student who is discerning in teachers. All I try to provide is the most realistic kung fu class I can for the people who want to work the system, and not the culture. We’ll constantly work the same moves, and constantly improve at them, but some may not be my bread and butter, and thus may have room for improvement. Plus, I’d be the last to claim that, in sparring between equals, things are gonna go easy. My students each have other teachers and varied talents, so all things are not always equal.

For those who want to criticize my lack of culture, I point out that the basis of the culture is in cultivation, not posturing, and, if they wish to go further, we can discuss the classics in the original language and grammar. If the conversation gets that far, I hope to learn a bit more classical Chinese syntax. If not, good, I don’t need more discussions of classical Chinese philosophy from people who learned it from their kung fu teacher. I learned from scholars, and I’m just passable, I’ll not waste my time studying the pop culture version of it.

A: Today we wrestled 15 rounds and I can beat you 15-0. What make you think that you are qualified to be my teacher any more?
B: :frowning:

Since I never seek to retain students, no one can accuse me of it. Anyone is free to leave. When people don’t show up for unknown reasons, I don’t sweat it. As long as they improve over the time they have, I’m okay with it. They’re not alive to be my students, they choose to at times, that’s all. I wouldn’t expect a better to study with me, unless he felt that I knew some things he could make use of, in which case, I would not question his judgment, either. I make zero claims. I tell my students, “I am a practitioner, if a respected one in some circles. I am in the position of teaching because I need more training partners who do this system. There are no magic moves. It’s an internal style, so it tends to require a lot of focus on body mechanics, an obsessive focus on body mechanics, so it’s a lot of work. I’ll keep the work realistic, but it’s still work. Some people like the work, some like knitting, I don’t see one as better than the other, I just like this work, and I don’t care for sweaters. They make me itchy.”

You know, the normal traditional sifu thing.

i am in the position of teaching because I need more training partners who do this system. There are no magic moves.

I like this!:slight_smile:

I’ll keep the work realistic, but it’s still work. Some people like the work, some like knitting, I don’t see one as better than the other, I just like this work, and I don’t care for sweaters. They make me itchy."

wish a lot more people felt this way.

One of the major problems, especially in TCMA, is this attitude that the instructor is some demi-god who stands at the front of the class who should be so good no student can ever touch him. Maybe it was too much Kung Fu theatre or something, but this doesn’t seem to be as much of a problem as say boxing. I have seen trainers in their 60’s who looked and acted like Mickey from Rocky train bad a**ss fighters. Do you really think they could beat the guys they are training?

But no one questions that, yet Kung Fu for whatever reason is different. It shouldn’t be, but it is. One of my instructors told me once when I was coming up through that I would never be as good as him. At the time I agreed, but now I realize what a trite and arrogant statement that really was. As an instructor, I would be proud the day my student surpassed me, and I mean that wholeheartedly.

[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1031823] As an instructor, I would be proud the day my student surpassed me, and I mean that wholeheartedly.[/QUOTE]

I would hope thats the goal for most instructors. Nothing worse than a teacher trying to hold you back due to self esteem and ego issues. this is where the bull**** of modern ‘secret’ techniques and being hand fed comes into the game its ****ing retarded.

[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1031823]As an instructor, I would be proud the day my student surpassed me, and I mean that wholeheartedly.[/Quote]

My thoughts exactly.

[QUOTE=MightyB;1031038]Really, the whole point of this thread is to get people out of the “TMA is Crap mindset” and to offer what I think is a solution. We all know people that can bust out every form and know every theory - but, in a sparring situation they do nothing that resembles any mantis technique that they’ve been repeating throughout all of their training. [/QUOTE]

the reason is simple. white people love forms. forms link unrelated movements together and take the focus off individual moves and makes them useless.

[QUOTE=Lucas;1031828]I would hope thats the goal for most instructors. Nothing worse than a teacher trying to hold you back due to self esteem and ego issues. this is where the bull**** of modern ‘secret’ techniques and being hand fed comes into the game its ****ing retarded.[/QUOTE]

At the same time, such people aren’t even able to take part in this conversation. They lose out. I don’t even bother with chastising them, they’ll see that moving on is better from examples who shine brighter than they ever did.

And I’m fairly certain that I have more direct experience with them than 99% of the people posting about martial arts on the internet.

What’s important now is those of us that see things the way they should be, and forging that way, not the irrelevant dinosaurs of the past. Their tourneys are dying, their flocks are departing. They are over. I still don’t think their styles should suffer their fates, so I leave room in case they wise up.

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1031839]with them than 99% of the people posting about martial arts on the internet.

What’s important now is those of us that see things the way they should be, and forging that way, not the irrelevant dinosaurs of the past. Their tourneys are dying, their flocks are departing. They are over. I still don’t think their styles should suffer their fates, so I leave room in case they wise up.[/QUOTE]theyre not dinosaurs. they were usurpers and traitors. their long tradition is about 40 years old

[QUOTE=bawang;1031838]the reason is simple. white people love forms. forms link unrelated movements together and take the focus off individual moves and makes them useless.[/QUOTE]

I’ve trained in China. It’s no different.

In fact, the one advantage is I had no intention of training in China. I went there to practice my mandarin, practiced kung fu in the mornings like I normally do, and was constantly approached to become people’s student. For three months I turned everyone down. The next three months I was there, a friend asked me to take chen style taijiquan with him, so I did, the teaching was decent, but I was not there to train, and there were some issues, so I was going to call it off, when another friend said “Don’t go back to them, come with me” and took me to a class that quite honestly was some of the best martial arts I’d ever trained.

Free.

The last time I paid for martial arts was a decade ago. I’m whiter than Ed Begley, Jr.

The problem is it’s easier to remember a form than to remember a form and how to use it, period. It’s the same from continent to continent.

In China, more schools can fight because they have sanshou programs, but this doesn’t seem to mean that they are using the style they supposedly teach in sanshou. They do sanshou, and then they do some style that they rarely fight with.

You have to know the right people to get the right stuff, most of the time.

where u learned kung fu in china mang>?

[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1031823] As an instructor, I would be proud the day my student surpassed me, and I mean that wholeheartedly.[/QUOTE]

Hence, my signature.

[QUOTE=bawang;1031840]theyre not dinosaurs. they were usurpers and traitors. their long tradition is about 40 years old[/QUOTE]

Sadly this is true. We have all had this discussion before, but think about when martial arts really got popular in the US, around the mid 60’s. Even then, point sparring was much harder and at least had contact compared to the crap that goes on at tournaments today. Nothing is absolute and there have always been and will always be exceptions, but it is highly debateable that what these so called tradionalists do is actually traditional.