Hi,
oops, forgot to give equal time to these. Which is most like what you mean?
http://www.masterthepower.com/
www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/kki/1986/may86/emptyforce/emptyforce.html
www.taichiworld.net/Articles/empty_force.htm
www.student.city.ac.uk/~dy706/taiji5.html
Good hunting,
Esteban
This is the rest–I’m on a stinking cable modem-I want my dial-up back
Anyone thinking that learning the projection of qi will significantly benefit their lives is deluded. While there is still some disagreement about the benefits of qi among scientists, there is nothing but anecdotal evidence to support it in any way. We know of its existence by its effects much as we know of electricity’s existence because of its effects. However, I have not s
HHHmm nice try..
unfortunately when you try and give creedence to this topic by determining the validation of Qi only by those in the world of science, you immediately down-trade your argument and it’s credibility. Sorry if this seems like an insult but in fact its not. Why oh why should we expect scientists to be the authourity especially in an area which with their edifying methodology is probably inexerpienced to research it! Don’t get me wrong science is vital to all and to understanding the world we live in (up to a certain point), but it’s just like trying to use a German only translator to transcribe text written in French. I’m not sure that science does take the correct approach in investigating this area. Obviously I could be wrong, but how does one quantify Qi? Can science quantify Spirituality? I feel they mey be using the wrong tools for this job. Just an opinion mind you!!
Falun Gon(g)zo
I take it that the comment about Mister Li being “the highest ranking Qi-Gong Master in the world today” can be taken completely in jest? I think my irony recognition reserves must be low today. Anyone in this day and age who could make such a claim immediately negates themselves from the so-called running as they obviously are devoid of any modicum of humility. I quote the Tao-Te Ching “..those who speak of the Tao do not know of it, those who know of it do not speak of the Tao”. And my favourite line in the whole edict “the Sage does nothing , but nothing is left undone”.
Yes, Monkey, the remark about Mr. Li/Falun Gong was made in jest.
Americas.. Well..
I don’t know how long the below image will stay available to be viewed but for now take a look:
Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres
Repulsive Monkey,
I share your distrust of the modern scientific method. I agree with you that just because modern science has not validated the existence of something does not mean it does not exist. The earth was still spherical regardless of what science thought when it was believed the earth was flat. However, anecdotal evidence is an even poorer measure of reality, which is why we attempt to use the scientific method in modern society. Even the Chinese are using to scientific method to investigate the existence and benefits of qi. Regardless of your opinion, my argument is not downgraded if one is utilizing the laws of logic to determine truth.
I also agree with you that the scientific method as utilized in spiritual matters is inadequate to be the sole determining factor of the reality of spiritual experiences. However, qi has physical effects, can be examined, and measured using the scientific method. Electricity has not been proven to exist using the scientific method. We know of its existence due to its effects, which can be measured, but what it is, is still a theory. It is the same for qi, which still has not been proven to have any more benefit to an individual that can be provide through other means. Many of the experiences of qi can be attributed to the placebo effect.
All this from someone who actually believes that qi exists; I just believe that it is overrated. I have had my share of experiences with qi, I have seen it visually as well. I just believe there are more important and real spiritually focused activities that produce real benefits. Qi is a power and has nothing to do with spiritual maturity. The pursuit of it, while fun and entertaining, is a distraction from more productive activities.
Sincerely,
Scott
Excellent Post Scott..
Except I would like to comment on just one part of it:
“I have had my share of experiences with qi, I have seen it visually as well. I just believe there are more important and real spiritually focused activities that produce real benefits. Qi is a power and has nothing to do with spiritual maturity. The pursuit of it, while fun and entertaining, is a distraction from more productive activities.”
It surprised me that you said this as this appeared to me to be a comment against your beliefs in its own. To contrast or compare or to draw away from what others consider part of finding themselves seems redundant. In this I refer to you saying that “Qi is a power and has nothing to do with spiritual maturity.” At a lower level of practice, and outlook, this may be the case but if you begin to look a bit closer you will see that this is not the case at all. Qi is the essence of the spiritual search, the life force that allows you to do so. The tingling feeling you get that runs up your spine when something unpredictable or unforseen takes place that changes your perception.
And to draw a contrast or comparison that one thing is a greater producer of spiritual development then another is to overlook spiritual development altogether. Through failure you will find success.
Thus it is said,
“There are times when even brightness seems dim;
when progress seems like regression;
when the easy seems most difficult,
and virtue seems empty, inadequate and frail;
times when purity seems sullied;
when even reality seems unreal,
and when a square seems to have corners;
when even great talent is of no avail,
and the highest note cannot be heard;
when the formed seems formless,
and when the way of nature is out of sight”.
Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres
Esteban,
These are the two I agree with, in order of my agreement with what they have to say:
Sincerely,
Scott
crimson pheonix
I apologize for the trick thing it was daniel madar that said it sorry! as for daniel if it is a trick then please try it for your self!
as for the needle insertion not being qi-gong allow me to explian it to you
first we know that qigong is an art or skill for manipulating,culitvating, redirecting chi right?
and chi flows in us through us an around us right?
and a qi-gong master has the ability to control his, hers or anothers chi right?
then just as chi flows through meridians for accupuncture it also allows blood flow, pain recepters and circulation right?
then how is inserting a steel wire through skin, muscle, facaia and nerves when she is controling my chi not painful to me or my brain waves also without a drop of blood shed!
so you see just as anestseologists give you locals to prevent such things from happening, qigong can also do this naturally! so maybe your knowledge of qigong is limited but I assure you but this is very real and in no way not part of demonstrating high level qi-gong!
As you explianed when shaman snap out of their trance they are unable to perform, and if my teacher pulled her hand away for a second it would be a whole different story! I hope this explains what I am attempiting to prove to you . thank you
Nexus,
If you recall one of my posts on another thread I likened “powers†to Michael Jordan’s ability to play B-ball. Just because someone has developed a skill is not reason to raise them up spiritually. It is possible to develop qi with little spiritual insight. The pursuit of the development of qi in itself will provide one with some spiritual maturity, but qi can be manipulated without much personal development and is not a sign of spiritual maturity. It may be a consequence of spiritual growth, but not necessarily a guarantee of the presence of spiritual maturity. The focusing on the development of powers is just another attachment one will have to eventually dispense with along the path to maturity.
While my comment in question may seem opposed to some of my other statements, it is important to include my previous posts on this thread to keep it in context. I did get the opportunity to finish posting my previous message.
Each person does pursue their own path and is ultimately responsible for their own growth. However, it would be inappropriate for me to NOT mention the more common pitfalls. The importance some put on developing powers is a path that leads to a longer route. I am merely saying so. The lessons they learn will be valuable along the way and will be according to their interests and personalities, however someone does need to inform them of their error. Assuming people are generally attempting to take the shortest path possible to spiritual maturity.
If we accept qi as the sustaining life force than your comment would be correct in that because of it we exist and therefore it is the part of what enables us to live so that we may become spiritually mature. My comment was more directed to the focused attempt to develop it. It is already present in us; healthy food, clean air, exercise and a calm attitude will keep it flowing freely in our system. However, the “focused†pursuit of it for the purposes of performing parlor tricks is a waste of valuable time, which could be used for pursuits that are more productive.
One of my previous, posts ended with this paragraph:
“Some will insist that this type of cultivation is still worth the effort and I do not fault you. Everyone has their own path. I am merely exercising my right to express my thoughts. I still respect the opinions and rights of those of you who will disagree with me and I wish you good luck.â€
I hope this more accurately explains my position.
Sincerely,
Scott
Hi Scott,
you seem like an honest and sincere man. I guess what bothers some people is the connection made between “qi,” “empty force,” “spiritual development” and “combat.” “Qi” is turned into a magical or mystical force that “enlightened” (and highly trained) individuals can use to fight without making physical contact. I agree with the poster who argues that the enlightened practitioner wouldn’t use his art superficially, to fight, let alone brag about it. “Qi” can be emitted, by breathing, bleeding, sweating, ejaculating. And, all these can have effects on things and people outside one’s body. Some people seem to have “healing hands”. Some people seem to have “surgeon’s hands.” Who’s going to explain why one person has one and another doesn’t? In terms of fighting, well, a mouse can get scared to death when he’s put into the snake’s cage. This I’ve seen from experience with my childrens’ pets. The snake only ate live mice. Native Americans recognized, and spiritualized, this relationship between predator and prey in nature. But, to claim that “qi” and “empty force” are going to stop 4 or 5 pissed-off (but sober) fullbacks deserves much more attention, like WWF or WCW. No disrespect meant, I would like to see it. I even believe there might be those who could do it, only not because of “empty force.” Unfortunately, extravagant claims and demonstrations often make the subject seem so ridiculous that it’s entirely dismissed. Anyway, Kevin wanted an example of someone who used “empty force” for combat. On Mr. Colangelo’s site, there’s an email address.
Respects,
Esteban
Esteban,
Personally, I am less concerned about the reality of the effects of qi projection and more concerned with the time and energy people spend on its development. Like I said earlier, the purchase of a gun or even pepper spray would accomplish the same result with much less effort and time. Then one could spend 20-30 years of their life practicing activities with more beneficial, assured and tangible results.
Sincerely,
Scott
Scott..
Indeed what is the most obvious is the hardest to explain. Of course, that which makes little sense to us we attribute a thousand words.
Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres
Nexus,
Could you be more specific? (joke: Ha Ha Ha)
Sincerely,
Scott
Earth Dragon, indeed I get your point and it’s perfectly valid, it’s exactly what I meant in my last precision about the usage of mind which is also a major point in qigong…I guess we spoke the same words about this, but in different dialects!
As for the steel insertion, I didn’t get the part about your teacher and didn’t realize you insert it under her control, not yours (if I get it right)…that makes it much more interesting indeed, because frankly I’m not impressed anymore by guys inserting steel in their jaws or thighs (even if I wouldn’t do it myself hehehehe).
But the precision about her hand adds some good spice to the act…
Nexus,
If you recall one of my posts on another thread I likened “powers†to Michael Jordan’s ability to play B-ball. Just because someone has developed a skill is not reason to raise them up spiritually. It is possible to develop qi with little spiritual insight. The pursuit of the development of qi in itself will provide one with some spiritual maturity, but qi can be manipulated without much personal development and
Go away for a couple of days and look what develops.
As I read through the posts I noticed someone say “but you’ve probably never been to China…” I think thats something you can’take for granted. I’d never heard of the teacher mentioned and I lived there training Qigong.
The point of bringing this up was not so that I could believe in the use of distance skills, but so that those who did could say why. You don’t need to explain the validity of Qi healing to me, I teach Qigong for medical practitioners at a school of Chinese medicine, and Faqi is part of our curriculum.
It now seems clear that people tend to arrange the argument to suit thier own tastes no matter how many times or ways I frame the question. Nothing in my original post was directed to healing, or body piercing or Faqi skills other than combat, yet how many posts digress to things completely tangential?
The horse-stance story is the closest thing to an anecdotal account of distance skills, thanks. Can we get back to martial arts and let this rest now?
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
The pursuit of [Qi], while fun and entertaining, is a distraction from more productive activities.
Is this a martial arts board or a communist propaganda board? 
Seriously though, there seems to be some confusion about the scientific method. Its requirements are very simple:
The use of white lab coats, Bunsen burners, and chalkboards is strictly optional.
Censored,
Aren’t you supposed to be out weeding on the collective right now? I will report you if you continue to speak out independently. Then you can join my parents on the Archipelago.
The scientific method also includes taking measurements and the reproducibility of results under controlled circumstances.
Oh!! I guess that falls under the “check” category.
Sincerely,
Scott