Empty force

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Qigong and Meditation
1

I just thought I’d start a new thread on this topic as the “tai chi and chi kung” thread has brought it up.

My question is, does anyone know of any evidence of the use of distance skills by a master on an unwilling opponent?

I remember reading an article on a Kongjin charlatan who said the student had to be properly “primed” before they could be manipulated from a distance. My immediate thought was “great, if I don’t learn that style I won’t have to fear them,” how daft.

Ueshiba may have thrown students around this way (re. Earth Dragon’s comment) but I have to say that my personal experience with Aikidoka is that they have trouble dealing physically with an unwilling opponent, let alone using Qi to toss them around. One key aspect of the way they train is to follow a pattern of engagement, anything outside the pattern seems to be problematic. Didn’t Robert Smith have a story about a skeptical newspaper reporter and an Aikido demostration in California?

I have had the opportunity to train Faqi/emmiting Qi in China for an extended period of time. My teachers took me into some remote Mountains in Sichuan. While my teachers and the monks that I met would talk about long distance Qi connections for healing and some crazy clairvoyant stuff, it was always in the context of a willing recipient.

I did get to see and experience some very freaky things, much of it more appropriate to Carlos Castaneda than the Taiji Classics. Yet I still feel that you had better be able to deal with a person on the physical level before you spend too much training time on the magical stuff.

“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai

2

good point!

hey kevin you bring up and good question, As I have said before my qi-gong teacher does many healings every day, some people are more open to her chi and get instant results, others feel better the next day and some go to one treatment and say they feel a little better but rely on their western doctor for further diagnosis. But again it seems as if the more open you are about it the more it works. Thats not saying it doesnt if you dont beleive as in hypnosis but I think a part of the mind can be manipulated if it wants to be. Most people that go to her hear about her through me and only speak with her on the phone and breifly when they see her , so Its not totally priming as you said but the eleviation of the concienceness to seek help in an unexplained way not common to untrained people…

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

3

this has to do with personal experience

because you have to find out for yourself. That finding out is dependent on perception, self knowledge (including being able to distinguish one’s own from incoming energy), experience, observation, etc.

I have seen a willing student, or a suggestible person being physically affected or controlled by a teacher, or agreeing to act cooperative. But, a person can be unaware (innocent) of another’s energy operative within. I have seen that too. Part of the teaching process often involves degrees of energy transfer. There is a master in Malaysia who openly advertises that he helps students achieve faster learning of energy circulation during his overseas Chi Kung seminars by doing just that.

When one considers healing or attack over distances, whether that be from an inch or several miles away as magical, I think that might be overlooking the importance of such phenomena. They are often, in fact, denied by the practioners within situations. Here, we are dealing with part of the essence of martial arts, the secret teachings. In fact, telepathic and telekinetic powers are not restricted to certain martial artists.

Circulation and control of energy and refining its connection with mind, projection of thoughts and energy to others, and the beat goes on. In my experience, this exists as a fact. No magic. Just aptitude and training, not dependent on character or anything high minded.
take care,

passingthru

4

Quite some time ago, the alleged Empty Force teacher (I will refrain from the use of the term master throughout this post, and I say alleged as I have only second hand knowledge of the facts of the story I am about to relate) performed a seminar at my home school at the invitation of the instructor there.

Many of our school’s senior and junior students were present, as well as a number of visitors from other schools.

It has been reported to me that those persons expressing a desire to believe that such “powers” either exist or could exist through proper qigong training manifested varying degrees of effectiveness of said Empty Force techniques.

However, none of the members of our school were affected to any noticeable degree.

As our school does not believe, as standard doctrine, that qi can be transmitted for effect without the use of actual contact, and that our standard doctrine is to “extend” qi in all directions at all times, it has been hypothesized that IF such a skill CAN be developed, that it will be unreliable at best dependant upon the level of skill, training and susceptibility of the opponent.

We believe that, in all fairness to the aforementioned Empty Force teacher, and in an effort not to discount unduly things that are not readily measured with present scientific methods (since the definitive existence of qi itself has yet to be proven in the manner it is described by most martial schools), due to the nature of our qigong training and exercises, the “extension” of our qi hampers the ability of another person’s qi to affect us without actual manual or pedal contact with our persons.

This having been said, IF such a skill DOES exist, the very disbelief presented by its detractors may be what is causing it to malfunction.

It has been shown, at least at a preliminary level, that the human consciousness has a direct effect on the existence or non-existence of matter in our universe. If sufficient people are present believing in the power of Empty Force, then they may well counteract, locally, the disbelief held by others, thus allowing said Empty Force to work.

Then again, maybe our theory is bullshit.

Just my 2 yen…

(And I have met the aforementioned Empty Force teacher via chat and email, and I have to say that he is an intelligent man, not seeming to be the sort wrapped up in fraudulent behavior. I might also add that our theory was presented to him briefly, at which time he admitted that Empty Force does not work all the time on every person, and that our theory may well hold true. Or not.)

Matt Stone

5

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> some people are more open to her chi and get instant results, others feel better the next day and some go to one treatment and say they feel a little better but rely on their western doctor for further diagnosis.[/quote]

There is a name for this phenomenon in western medicine…it is called the placebo effect.

Fu-Pow

“Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter.”

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

6

please further explain your self fu pow. for it is not a mind over matter type situation, it has to deal with the seriousness of the illness the pressure of the dermis/epidermis and the strength of the facia of conective tissue. That allows topical penatration. But I may be wrong so again please elaborate…

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

7

May I suggest that the most important lesson in “empty force” partner training is not in the issuing/sending, but in the interpreting/receiving; i.e. recognizing intent (of attack) before it has been physically manifested, and neutralizing it before it reaches a significant or unmanageable level of power?

Can this be the true meaning of “…once my opponent moves, I move first”? :cool:

8

very good grass hopper.
intent leads the chi, the body follows.
very simple, very hard to do.
TC and some other arts directly address this.
but i think that many misinterpet the meanings and have no good examples to see the concept put to use.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

9

I believe!

I have experienced what some might term empty force with my former teacher. It was most definitely not a placebo effect, since at the time I had not concept of what empty force was. I had also only been a student of this teacher for two weeks.

My teacher said something along the lines of “I’ll show you something interesting” and then quite simply I felt as if I was being pulled off my feet, towards my teacher, to the point where I was forced to take a step.

Can this teacher use this ability to attack in a combat fashion? I dunno. Could they have made me move if I didn’t want to? I dunno, it was too surprising.

10

Still not what I’m talking about.

[censored] and Bamboo Leaf, what I’m actually asking about is distance skills, not receiving. In the other thread the discussion was about throwing or moving people without touch.

Shin, I’d not call you an unwilling opponent where your former teacher is concerned. When your former teacher says “let me show you something” you are primed and open.

“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai

11

Failure of logic

So what your saying is, anytime someone walks up and says “Let me show you something” you are primed and ready to have someone trick you?

I fail to see how I was primed to believe in something that I didn’t know was possible until it happened to me. It’s not like my teacher made any magical gestures or anything like that.

12

I would like to..

recall some of my above comments by re-emphasizing that I do not disbelieve in this so called empty force, I simply wish to see it in action and be sure of its “realness?”

For those of you who are certain of its validity you are indeed the fortunate ones to have found the true empty force skills out there.

If you have any more information, please post it.

  • Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

13

Shin, I fail to se how you can miss that a prior relationship takes us into different ground from dealing with an unknown assailant. I’m not talking about magical gestures or hypnosis. The logic is that you are not thinking “I kill you now,” you are probably waiting to be taught something. A rather different mind-set from combat. Much like the mind-set that led you to take what I said in a negative way and respond defensively. No offence meant. If you felt about your former teacher like you felt about my response to you how well would empty force work? This is more the context I’m talking about.

So, again, does anyone know of an example of distance skills working on an unwilling opponent? Even Dong Haichuan and Chen Fake had to touch to perform their throws.

“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai

14

But Maybe..

Chen Fa Ke only did touching to perform his throws for the general public but for his private students he taught them distance qi attacks? We’ll never know. But truthfully searching out that type of phenomena to try and get the easy way out is not a good way to entertain the martial arts. I have found that there is no way out of hard work and practice when it comes to the Martial Arts if you truly want to attain mastery.

Good Luck!

  • Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

15

Hi All,

I’m agnostic about empty force. I don’t konw. Something happens; no one (who knows) explains exactly what it is (publicly). Assuming it exists, I’d like to see it demonstrated on an inanimate object --to eliminate the issue of psychology, susceptibility, etc. Instead of seeing it applied on someone, I’d like to see it prevent a student/victim from smacking the instructor. Note, I said “prevent,” not “protect.” If it requires the student to be sensitized --by training-- then maybe such training should be avoided. BTW, I don’t think the people who teach or demonstrate such a skill are being dishonest. The students are being helpful, but they have a lot invested. Anyway, it seems like acquiring the skill would take a great deal of time. There’s a lot of basic stuff that is worth time working on before going for the empty force skills. Just my opinion. Oh, is this an example of what you were talking about?
See the last one with Frank, I think.
http://www2.thecia.net/users/karenvs/phils/phils.htm

Respects,
Esteban

16

That site..

always made me laugh. Especially the big guy who keeps spinning his body around to maintain his balance.

  • Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

17

Sigh

Actually I train in the Chen Fake lineage (my teacher is Ma Hong’s Canadian representative), so what he did with inner door students is very much a part of what we study.

However, the application of empty force distance skills (how do you make an underline or bold text here?) against students is not what I’m asking about. Thanks for the link Esteban, but thats not what I mean. No teachers demonstrating on students, or former students, is that clear?

Does anyone know of any master who has applied empty force distance skills on an unwilling opponent? Even an anecdote would be helpful.

“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai

18

It Sounds As If..

You really want to believe in it! Why not instead believe in <u>yourself!</u>

  • Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

19

Hi Kevin,

I understand what you mean by an unwilling opponent, but could you give me an idea of what you would expect to happen? Wouldn’t the opponent not be able to tell what happened to him? Is “empty force” something you feel can be used apart from form or technique? Again, I don’t know, but I think if someone manages to get to Chen Fake’s physical level, it’s an accomplishment --and, given the amount of time he practiced his form, gaining any other skill at all --or even keeping a girlfriend-- would be a massive achievement. http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/SpiritSt/xinyi/taijiquanCFK_new1.htm

Best,
Esteban

20

okay

So let me understand this…

After two weeks, which breaks down as one two hour class, and half of a second, in which I learned the universal post stance, I became susceptible to mental controls to the point where I could be pulled of my feet without a verbal suggestion beyond let me show you something?

In that case I need to go back and study hypnosis from my old teacher and forget about tai chi.