Does the "Iron Shirt" or the "Iron Fist" training and technique work?

just found this!

The Mechanics of Martial Arts
Eastern philosophy has not had a physical model for martial arts that a western trained mind could wrap a thought around. That is, not until biotensegrity.

The symbol of strength for western culture is the Greek god, Atlas. After a mythical war between the Olympians and Titans, Atlas, one of the losers, was condemned to stand as a pillar and support the universe on his shoulders for all eternity (Figure 1).


Figure 1. Atlas holding the world

Following this model, strength, in western thought, is characterized as a rigid, unyielding and unmovable column. Western thought has the rigid column, the lever, and brute force, all concepts familiar to us since childhood when we built our first stack of blocks, rode a seesaw and smashed our first toy. In eastern thought, strength comes from deep within and is flexible, yielding and mobile; it flows. This difference in philosophy of strength is expressed in a difference in approach to combat sports. But eastern philosophy has not had a physical model for martial arts that a western trained mind could wrap a thought around. That is, not until biotensegrity.

Biotensegrity is a mechanical model of biologic structure and function based on construction concepts introduced by Kenneth Snelson and Buckminster Fuller in the 1960’s. In these models, the compression struts or rods are enmeshed and ‘float’ in a structured network of continuously connected tension ‘tendons’ (Figure 2). The shafts constructed by tensegrity networks are as different from a conventional column as a wagon wheel differs from a wire spoke bicycle wheel. Let me explain.


Figure 2. Needle Tower, Snelson, Hirsshorn Museum, washington, DC. The compression spokes ‘float’ in a tension network.

A conventional column is vertically oriented, compression load resisting and immobile. It depends on gravity to hold it together. It can only function on land, in a gravity field. The heavy load above fixes it in place. It must have ground beneath it for support. The weight above crushes down on the support below and the bottom blocks must be thicker and stronger than what is above it.

If the spine is a conventional column, the arms and legs will cantilever off the body like flagpoles off a building. Moving an up-right, multiply hinged, flexible column, such as the spine as envisioned in conventional biomechanics, is more challenging than moving an upright Titan missile to its launch pad. Walking and running have been described as a ‘controlled fall’, a rather inelegant way to conceptualize movement. It certainly doesn’t describe the movement of a basketball player, a ballet dancer or a martial arts master. In the standard spine – column model, the model for mobilizing the spine and putting the body in motion would be a wagon wheel (Figure 3 A).


Figure 3. A. Wagon wheel. The compression spokes are thick and short. The rim is thick and heavy. The load vaults fro m one spoke to the next as the wheel rotates. B. Wire bicycle wheel. Long, thin tension spokes. The rim is thin and light. C. In a wire wheel, the hub is suspended by a tension spoke (a). It will belly out if not contrained by other tension spokes (b). Additional spokes distribute the load (c, d).

In a wagon wheel, each spoke, compressed between the heavy rim and the axle, acts as a column. The wheel vaults from one spoke/column to the next, loading and unloading each spoke in turn. The weight of the wagon compresses the single spoke that then squeezes the rim between the spoke and the ground. At any one time, only one spoke is loaded and the other spokes just stand there and wait their turn. The spoke must be rigid and strong enough to withstand the heavy compression load and short, thick spokes do better than long, thin ones. The rim must be thick and strong, as it would crush under heavy load as it, too, is locally loaded. The forces are generated from the outside to the center. Using the column, post and lintel model, in a standing body, the heel bone would have to be the strongest bone in the body instead of, as it is in life, one of the weakest and softest.

Biotensegrity bodies would be like a wire-spoke bicycle wheel (Figure 3B). In a wire wheel, the hub hangs from the rim by a thin, flexible spoke. The rim would then belly out if it were not for the other spokes that pull in toward the hub (Figure 3C). In this way, the load is carried by the tension of the many spokes, not the compression strength of one. The load gets distributed through the system and the hub is floating in a tension network like a fly caught in a spider web. All spokes are under tension all the time, doing their share to carry the load. They can be long and thin. Even loads at the rim become distributed through the system so the rim does not have to be thick and strong as in a wagon wheel (Figure 3A). The structure is omni-directional and functions independent of gravity. Unlike a conventional column, it is structurally stable and functional right side up, upside down or sideways. A tensegrity structure can function equally well on land, at sea, in air or space.

Now think of each cell in the body behaving structurally as if it were a three-dimensional bicycle wheel. Each wheel would connect to each adjacent wheel the cell level, up the scale to tissue, organ and organism, a wheel within a wheel within a wheel. In this system all connective tissues in the body work together, all the time. It known, by recent experimental work that all the connective tissue, muscles, tendons ligaments right down to the cells are interconnected in just this way (Figure 5).


Figure 5. Interconnected Fibroblasts (Courtesy H. Langevin)

The body model would be more like Snelson’s ‘Needle Tower’ (Figure 2) where the ‘bones’ of the tower are enmeshed in the wire ’tendons’, never touching or compressing one another. Unlike flagpoles attached to the side of a building, the limbs are integrated into the system. The energy flows from deep within the structure, chi, out to the tips of the fingers and toes.

The basic building block of the biotensegrity structures, the finite element, is the tensegrity icosahedron (Figure 6).


Figure 6. Tensegrity icosahedron

Part 2:

We needn’t go in to all the details of the evolution of the biologic body here, but there are some very special properties of the icosahedron that explain the particular characteristics of biologic structure. It is, mathematically, the most symmetrical structure and, in its resting state, is extremely energy efficient. Distorting the shape requires energy and when that energy is released, it returns to its least energy state, a, normally, self-regulating and self-generating mechanism. It is like a spring that, when distorted, will bounce back to its original shape. But it is a very special spring. When a steel spring is in its resting state, there is no energy storage. Adding a weight, say a kilo, will stretch the spring a defined amount, say 10cm. Each additional kilo will stretch the spring an additional 10cm. When the spring is released, all the stored energy is immediately released and the spring will snap back. If it is not restrained, it will bounce because of the accelerated motion. And, depending on how springy (elastic) it is, it will bounce and bounce and bounce, jerking up and down. This is the type of spring associated with the standard column, post and lintel construction of the body in western mechanics and is characterized as ‘linear’ behavior (Figures 7 & 8).

Figure 7. Linear Stress/ Strain curve

Figure 8. Behavior of a linear spring

The icosahedron, tensegrity spring is different and characterized as ‘nonlinear’. In the resting state, there is always some residual tension or ‘tone’ in the system so it is never completely relaxed. If you add a kilo weight it may distort 15cms. But add another kilo and the distortion may only be 7cms, then 4cms, then 1cm. The icosahedron spring gets stiffer and stronger as you load it (Figure 9).

Figure 9. Non linear S/S curve. A spring and dashpot in series

You can see that as you add more weight a great amount of energy can be stored with very little change of shape of the icosahedron spring. When released, there is not the sudden, total release of stored energy as there is in a linear spring, but a great amount of energy can be released early and the last part can be released slowly and gently; a splashdown rather than a hard landing. This softens the blow and removes the bounce and jerkiness. As noted, not all the energy is released, some remains in storage (Figure 9). Grab onto your earlobe and pull. At first it distorts easily, but then it stiffens and pulling on it doesn’t change the shape very much. Let go. It regains most of its original shape quickly, but the last bit is very slow. It does not bounce back like a rubber band and slap you on the side of the head. This is often termed in biomechanical circles as ‘visco-elastic’ as it has properties that in some ways are like fluid and in other ways, like a stiff elastic spring. In biologic bodies with bones, the stiffest icosahedrons are the bones and the most energy can be stored there. When compressed or expanded the movement of the icosahedron is helical, like the threads of a wood screw, and this is consistent with what we know of normal body movement. When it behaves as a stiffening fluid, it becomes a shock absorber, soaking up the energy rather than focusing it.

Those of you who are martial art practitioners already know you don’t stand stiff and upright but move in all directions like a break-dancer. You know that the energy flows in and out from deep within the system and that you can bring energy up from the squishiness of your cells out to harden on the tips of your fingers. Your body is never completely flaccid; some tone always remains in the system. To get the maximum energy you screw yourself down and then explode with tremendous force from within, but never overshoot your mark. Pulling the force from deep within your structure is recruiting the entire body mass. Newton’s second law of motion is force equals mass times acceleration (F = ma). (Imagine the difference if a small car moving at 5MPH strikes your automobile or a bus moving at 5MPH strikes your auto; quite a difference). Consistent with that law, striking a blow with your whole body creates a greater force than just striking with your fist, as you are increasing mass. In the standard post and lintel model, the arm and fist are just hanging off the body mass and operate independent of it. In a conventional boxers blow, speed (a) is all-important as the mass (m) is mostly the fist, in the biotensegrity model, the entire body mass is involved. When absorbing a blow, it reverses the process by soaking up the initial force, distributing it, and then gradually stiffing at the cellular level where the cells, rather than all the resistance landing on a local area. The bone breaking impact, rather than focused where the blow landed, will be he resisted by all your cells in a wave that spreads from the impact cite to a wall of billions of cells throughout the body, acting as perfect hydraulic shock absorbers, take up the blow. You go with the flow. Much of what seems unexplainable about the forces generated in martial arts are readily explained when the body is understood as a biotensegrity structure rather than as the common western post and lintel model.

The concept that the body is a tensegrity structure is not just a convenient model for martial arts practitioners. A turf toe injury in a quarterback will keep him from throwing a long pass. The quarterback throws from his foot, not just his arm. We know that biologic tissues characteristically behave as nonlinear and visco-elastic material. In fact, this nonlinear behavior has been felt to be an essential quality of living tissue. Different researchers in different parts of the world have demonstrated evidence that the entire fascial network is interconnected so that a continuous tension network is known to exist within the body. We also know that at least some of the joints, like the shoulder girdle, transmit their loads through the tension of the soft tissue and not the compression of the bones. There is mounting evidence that this is the way all joints work.

It is difficult to let go of concepts that have been part of us since childhood. The post and lintel –lever system has intuitively been our model of how the body mechanically functions. On the other hand, we really know better. Just watch any child first learning to throw a ball. Our first throws are done as if the arm is a separate structure, detached from the body. We soon learn that to throw a ball, you must put your whole body into it as the football quarterback does. We just never had a model to understand what we were doing. Biotensegrity gives us that model.
http://www.biotensegrity.com/martial_arts_mechanics.php

One note:

the only “error” I’d point out is what he characterizes as a “conventional boxer’s” strike being mostly arm - just as he correctly characterizes a quarterback throwing from his foot, a skilled boxer punches using the whole body, not just the arm - so he is clearly demonstrating some bias towards / lack of understanding of boxing in regards to that;

New Thread link

awesome article related to this discussion:

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62438

Given that Sifu Dale could probably punch the head off of a rhinoceros, I tend to take his advice on these matters…

Thank you for the kind words.

[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1144057]Thank you for the kind words.[/QUOTE]

No, really… you probably could.

And that is why Iron Shirt is something I would take very little faith in. Now Iron Palm or Fist, that is a bit different. I once trained my hands to inflict maximum impact on a target, but I do not have the faith that any amount of training will prevent you from falling to a fierce punch. I can hit really hard. If I strike by surprise I can shove a sternum against the back bone, crushing and squishing anything in between. Lungs, heart, other little soft squishy things. It would kill you instantly almost. I would imagine a look of total surprise just before the lights went out.

right.

you can do that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1gj1GShMo0

The body can be toughened over time. Bones can become more dense from repeated impact (Google “Wolff’s law”). This is the principle of how Iron Fist training works. By repeatedly hitting stuff with the fist, over time you are a) causing the bones to become more dense, b) increasing your pain tolerance c) increasing your confidence (knowing that you can hit without pain) and d) hopefully improving your structure so that you deliver solid blows.

It’s the same thing that happens to Muay Thai guys’ shins. They don’t call it “iron shin” training specifically, but it’s the same idea.

You can do it to the body, too, to an extent.

Forearms and shins basically work the same way as the fist: denser bones, increased pain tolerance and confidence.

Abs work kind of the same way, but there’s no bone to condition. You can improve your pain tolerance and get your body more used to taking strikes, however. Houdini could do this. Don’t be fooled, there’s no mystic power involved. Your flexed abs are protecting you, not magic qi power.

Be aware of this. There are a lot of charlatans out there that want you to believe they have magic powers and some of them even believe they can teach you to develop the same magic powers. They do cool demos on stage like taking sledgehammer blows to the stomach or laying on a bed of nails and using qi power to explain it away. In truth, all of these techniques are done through proper application of physics, physical conditioning, and leverage.

Most of these tricks have been explained on this forum before. Long poles are broken on the arms well past the middle point, so it breaks because of where the fulcrum is, not because there is qi protecting the guys arm.

Sledgehammers are absorbed by the abs because the guy is flexing his abs really tight and has conditioned his body to take the blow (an impressive feat in itself, no idea why people have to try and make it mystic), not because he is circulating his qi.

Concrete slabs being broken on the head/stomach/chest/wherever by some other dude with a sledgehammer are also mostly physics with a bit of physical conditioning thrown in, not magic qi power.

Spears broken on the throat is a physics trick, not a magic ability.

Etc.

So the answer is yes, Iron Fist and Iron Shirt “work.” You can condition your body to take a significant amount of damage compared to what an unconditioned body can take. Just don’t let yourself get mislead by a lot of the BS that’s out there. It’s all physical conditioning, and the onus of proof is on the person claiming otherwise to prove that what they are doing cannot be replicated by physics, physical conditioning, and proper body mechanics.

There is nothing special or unique about forging the body or its weapons.
Every system of combat has methods to do just that.
EVERY system.
What makes the TCMA “special” is, like Dale said “slow and steady wins the race”.
The TCMA methods are slower, more methodical and, IMO, far “healthier” than those of other systems I have been exposed to:
The various japanese and okinawan methods.
The Thai methods
The western methods.
I don’t have any experience in the Indian methods so I can comment on them.
There is nothing mystical about this training and I have seen far more effective iron body OUTSIDE of those claiming it is “internal training”.
Because I am a “dynamic person” I tend to favour the methods that are more dynamic, that is NOT to say that the more “static” methods don’t have merit, they are just simply “not my thing”.

Internal training trains the connective tissues first, and then moves to the external with training the tissues and bones to accept more stress through their systems.

My Iron Vest is not about Qi or any of that silliness.

Its as Shifu Patterson mentioned. You are training fascia/connective tissues and then external tissues.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1143888]Mike, Do you have any connection to (Tian Zhan Men) or (Ting Zhan Men)?[/QUOTE]

I do not recognize these two schools, John. So if we are connected, I am unaware of such a connection.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1144218]Sledgehammers are absorbed by the abs because the guy is flexing his abs really tight and has conditioned his body to take the blow (an impressive feat in itself, no idea why people have to try and make it mystic)[/QUOTE]

I agree with pretty much everything in your post except for MAYBE the above statement. I specifically said that what we do is not mystical, it’s practical, just less common.

But are you trying to imply that this is just regular ab work? Hanging, supporting and swinging 150 lbs. from your junk is hardly in the realm of ordinary ab work and/or conditioning. And it DOES require special training.

Oh, and as a disclaimer: Don’t try this at home, folks. You DO NEED someone qualified to teach you this method or you risk serious, and very personal injury. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1144259]Internal training trains the connective tissues first, and then moves to the external with training the tissues and bones to accept more stress through their systems.

My Iron Vest is not about Qi or any of that silliness.

Its as Shifu Patterson mentioned. You are training fascia/connective tissues and then external tissues.[/QUOTE]

Right again, Dale. The deep body layers have to be stimulated in some way. Simply loading the external muscles, no matter how you do it, won’t yield the same results. Although I have met some very well conditioned folks that approach things in that way. Our way is to load every layer systematically and it starts with the CT.

[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1144259]Internal training trains the connective tissues first, and then moves to the external with training the tissues and bones to accept more stress through their systems.

My Iron Vest is not about Qi or any of that silliness.

Its as Shifu Patterson mentioned. You are training fascia/connective tissues and then external tissues.[/QUOTE]

And this approach is what, I believe, makes the TCMA method “superiour” and that is why I do them.

[QUOTE=Mike Patterson;1144274]I agree with pretty much everything in your post except for MAYBE the above statement. I specifically said that what we do is not mystical, it’s practical, just less common.

But are you trying to imply that this is just regular ab work? Hanging, supporting and swinging 150 lbs. from your junk is hardly in the realm of ordinary ab work and/or conditioning. And it DOES require special training.

Oh, and as a disclaimer: Don’t try this at home, folks. You DO NEED someone qualified to teach you this method or you risk serious, and very personal injury. :)[/QUOTE]

Oh, I absolutely agree. Doing crunches or leg raises or whatever all day isn’t going to give you the ability to stop a sledgehammer with your abs.

If you’re training for that, you have to do more than just ab work. Just like with iron fist or iron forearm or whatever, you need to slowly incorporate harder and harder strikes into your training. You can’t just do 100s of crunches a day for years and then one day be like “hey dude, hit me in the stomach with a sledge hammer!”

Mike, you sound like a cool guy. You’d be surprised how many people get their panties in a knot (and send me threatening PMs) when I make posts saying that magic qi power is not what is protecting them during their demonstrations.

Of course, I will concede that it is actually qi protecting them (and not tensed ab muscles and body mechanics) if they perform their demo under the following conditions:

  1. they are blindfolded and unable to see when the person is about to strike (prevents them from flexing their abs at the right moment)

  2. they let a trained fighter strike them rather than using some schmoe from the audience who throws a weak punch that wouldn’t hurt them anyway

  3. they are not fat and hiding behind their protective layers of adipose tissue

But indeed, every demo I’ve seen involves a dude who, at the moment of impact, is flexing every muscle for all he’s worth. Now don’t misunderstand. That is, in fact, the correct way to take a blow. And these people should be extremely proud of their conditioning. After all, neither I nor most other people can take a sledgehammer blow to the abs. But they aren’t happy with it; they have to blame it on mystic power and woo their audience. They warm up by doing qigong exercises or whatever while the announcer tells the audience “he’s moving his qi to his dan tien to protect him from the strike” or some mystic stuff like that. And the funny part is it totally overlooks the fact that even if it was qi protecting them, which it’s not, but even if it was, it would be useless if they have to stop an attacker to do their warmup exercises first :smiley:

The human body is capable of some awesome feats. I hate seeing the reputation of martial arts being dulled by silly mystic nonsense and flim flam stage tricks.

[QUOTE=IronFist;1144305]Oh, I absolutely agree. Doing crunches or leg raises or whatever all day isn’t going to give you the ability to stop a sledgehammer with your abs.

If you’re training for that, you have to do more than just ab work. Just like with iron fist or iron forearm or whatever, you need to slowly incorporate harder and harder strikes into your training. You can’t just do 100s of crunches a day for years and then one day be like “hey dude, hit me in the stomach with a sledge hammer!”

Mike, you sound like a cool guy. You’d be surprised how many people get their panties in a knot (and send me threatening PMs) when I make posts saying that magic qi power is not what is protecting them during their demonstrations.

Of course, I will concede that it is actually qi protecting them (and not tensed ab muscles and body mechanics) if they perform their demo under the following conditions:

  1. they are blindfolded and unable to see when the person is about to strike (prevents them from flexing their abs at the right moment)

  2. they let a trained fighter strike them rather than using some schmoe from the audience who throws a weak punch that wouldn’t hurt them anyway

  3. they are not fat and hiding behind their protective layers of adipose tissue

But indeed, every demo I’ve seen involves a dude who, at the moment of impact, is flexing every muscle for all he’s worth. Now don’t misunderstand. That is, in fact, the correct way to take a blow. And these people should be extremely proud of their conditioning. After all, neither I nor most other people can take a sledgehammer blow to the abs. But they aren’t happy with it; they have to blame it on mystic power and woo their audience. They warm up by doing qigong exercises or whatever while the announcer tells the audience “he’s moving his qi to his dan tien to protect him from the strike” or some mystic stuff like that. And the funny part is it totally overlooks the fact that even if it was qi protecting them, which it’s not, but even if it was, it would be useless if they have to stop an attacker to do their warmup exercises first :smiley:

The human body is capable of some awesome feats. I hate seeing the reputation of martial arts being dulled by silly mystic nonsense and flim flam stage tricks.[/QUOTE]

Agree 100%… well, maybe 98.2% as it is not ONLY about taking gradually stonger impacts, but that is a part of it for certain. It’s just not where it starts.

Yet, definitely NOT mystical.. anatomical only. Shi Swei merely takes advantage of the link of deep layer connective tissue that runs in the male from the privates all the way up to the head. Indeed, when you see someone such as me supporting 150 lbs. you will quite literally see the taxation on these structures through the throat visually. It’s that obvious. Btw, women can do this training as well, but in a slightly different way given the inherrent differences in anatomy. :slight_smile:

I’ve spent my whole life trying to “de-mystify” the internal martial arts for people, so we are in the same camp where that is concerned. (Oddly, nobody ever sends me nasty PM’s though.) Perhaps this will be that time. :wink:

Your reasoning in your final paragraph is resonant with me. Which is why I performed the demo coming right out of a set, took stance and then had Vince Black let fly with the hammer. It fits your equation.. no prep, context of motion only, trained martial artist swinging the hammer.

Funny though.. martial artists say; “use a trained guy” and cite your reasoning, which I agree with. But non-martial artists say; “yeah, you’re using a trained guy to control the random factor”.

Oh well. You just can’t please everyone all the time, right? :smiley:

[QUOTE=Mike Patterson;1144319] Indeed, when you see someone such as me supporting 150 lbs. you will quite literally see the taxation on these structures through the throat visually. It’s that obvious. [/QUOTE]

I agree: osteopathically, you often treat the sacrum and coccyx to resolve headaches; this utilizes what the osteopaths term the “core link” - the dural membranes that move from sacrum to occiput (in fact, if u do “internal” coccyx treatment, sometimes the person can feel the tension pulling up into their ethamoid bone - sort of behind the bridge of the nose); when u contract pelvic floor, if u r sensitive enough, u feel changes in the cranium; often we use movements of the feet to correct lesions in the head; finally, the three main transverse diaphragms occur at the level of pelvic floor, mid thoracic and cranial (behind the eyes) - they r def going to b involved in dissipating long axis forces placed on the system;

yeh, this makes lots of sense…thanks for sharing this in such a straight forward manner Mike - it cuts through a lot of silliness that people put out there, for various reasons