Does CMA Need a Heavy Sportive Aspect?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

One thing that I notice is that all the sportive fighting events are h omogenized, everybody does pretty much exactly the same thing. Doesn’t matter if it’s boxing or NHB. People figure what works in that venue and that is what they train.

I think this has already been said, but I think training for the street should be the number one priority. If you want to go above and beyond and fight in the ring then do it. If not then don’t.

If you make the ring the number one priority it’s definately going to influence how you train and possibly how you react in a real situation.

42

Somebody who “fights in the ring” or spars is waaay more ready to fight in the street than somebody who fights imaginary opponents/scenarios their whole life! Anybody that cant see that is in total denial. IMHO

43

fightfan,…

fightfan…, over here…:slight_smile:

You are wearing blinders commonly distributed to individuals by those who thing the nhb and the wwf and the ufc is the be all and end all of martial arts.

please.
ring training? you’re comparing it to street training?
They’re worlds apart.

peace

44

Kung Lek

Can you please explain to me how street training is done at full speed and full contact. So far nobody has been able to show how scenario training will prepare you better than fighting against a guy in a ring who is really trying to hurt you.

45

Originally posted by Kung Lek
please.
ring training? you’re comparing it to street training?
They’re worlds apart.

Kung Lek. Could you explain how you train for “street effectveness”?

46

Hey ringfighters!

Why…Do you always try to have everybody thinking and doing exactly like you?..Don’t you think that some diversity is a good thing in our world?..You make me think about those Jehowah witness who knock at my door every sunday mornings but instead of holding their usual “Watch tower”,they would have the last UFC or Pride tape and ask: " Do you know that God want you in the ring?"…“Do you know that if you dont join MMA/BJJ/Muay Thai/Boxing…You will not be chosen in the holy octagon?”…
“Please respect my faith”…I answer,But,I can’t expect too much,I’m affraid! :wink:

47

Kung Lek/Old Jong,
look guys, I didnt intend to sound like the way you guys are trying to make me sound.
I, like my fellow martial artists, started training MA to defend myself and others from common garbage that prey on the innocent. I cannot express myself enough when it comes to peaple messing with others minding their own biz.
Ive seen too many peaple from many different martial arts (including myself) get bulldozed by untrained brawlers to keep “believing” that standup/forms are enough.
Every new experience from grappling to MMA sparring has opened my eyes to a new degree of understanding that I simply want to share with you guys. Some of your narrow minded opinions equally make my teeth clench but I realize that opinions vary, but if your going to cross the street and I see a car coming, Im going to tell you about it.
You guys may/may not have a hidden agenda, and I can understand that buisness comes before anything, but I dont have one and Ive seen too many ugly things happen to good peaple to keep my mouth shut.
Im not saying for a second to stop doing what your doing! I happen to think KF is very effective if trained properly and unsurpassable when it comes to training the soul. Im just saying to realize the world isnt flat.
Respectfully,
fightfan

48

This is more of an observation than a reply to any particular post. I’ve noticed that there is a very typical pattern to the posts of pro-NHB/MMA folks in at least one regard. That is, they contain an implied message that if only traditional stylists would just TRY MMA and/or NHB, they would “see the light”, change their minds and give up what they’re doing in favor of the new approach. While some might, I think the implied message is not only wildly assumptive, it’s also outdated.

In the years since the MMA approach first developed, there already have been traditionalists who have given it a try. Some have fallen in love with it, foreswearing all they ever practiced before. Some were disillusioned, having built up incredible expectations for it as some sort of magic bullet, only to learn the average person won’t be any better at it than they were at their old traditional stuff without years of hard work and dedication (surprise, surprise). Many more in between found things they liked about it and things they didn’t. Instead of buying into the whole package, propaganda and all, they adopted some things and left the rest on the shelf.

This last category is where I think most experienced martial artists who give it an objective evaluation would end up. I know I have. I was a “mixed martial artist” and preached that message for at least 10 years before the UFC came along, so I might already tend to favor the philosophy. I’ve done full-contact fighting before, years ago, so that aspect of it doesn’t grab me. As for using NHB as the “only true test of my skills”, well…I’ve survived a number of real life-or-death combat encounters, so the NHB ring seems kind of anti-climactic in comparison if that were what I was looking for.

Like many MMAers, I’m an admirer of realism in tactics, and in that respect, I can appreciate how much NHB has shown us all that chaos and Murphy can thwart even the coolest Bruce Lee/Kung Fu/Ninja move when applied against a resisting opponent.

I am today an unapologetic traditionalist in a few arts. I’m also an occasional student and full-time admirer of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and some odds and ends from Sambo. I’m an unabashed chi-hugger, being that I practice TCM, and at the same time, one of the harshest public critics of the realism in training of traditional martial arts.

Maybe the gist of the message that MMAers keep pushing is twofold: 1) everyone would benefit from including some groundfighting training of whatever flavor, and 2) stop believing that practicing flowery-ass, Kung Fu Theatre bullsh*t against only thin air is gonna work for you in a real fight. That’s pretty much it. All the rest of the petty squabbles between the two camps either don’t really matter much or lead back to these two main points anyway.

Now, as much as I completely agree with the basic message of the MMAers as I’ve put it above and agree that my traditionalist brethren would do well to consider it, I would still suggest that the MMAers would do just as well to consider ANOTHER message which is just as much common sense as their own. That is, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. It amazes me that MMAers are still surprised that, after years of the disrespectful, egotistically-driven slander they’ve levelled against the traditional martial arts community, they (the MMAers) are having such a tough time selling their message.

Perhaps if the whole marketing campaign hadn’t started with “you’re all full of sht, I’m the baddest motherfcker on the planet, and you all need to abandon what you’re doing and listen to me”, there might have been more takers.

49

Street effectiveness training.

There are a variety of ways to train this.
Obviously, sparring and weapon drills, specifically knife and club/stick attacks for weapons.

Continuous attack and defense drills in multiple ranges.

Contact sparring either full or with standard courtesy protocols acknowledged by yourself and your training partner or the school you are at. This is inclusive to ring training and provides the student with an understanding of what a shot to the guts feels like and how to absorb or at least withstand it. Punching to the face at full contact or vital areas is not really a heavy requirement, unless of course you don’t value your prettiness. :smiley:

Awareness training such as scoping rooms or street. Habit training.

Random attack drills without the defenders prior knowledge.

Chin Na (Kum Na/Kum La..etc)
Grabs holds and releases in general.

Kung Training to harden and condition your natural weapons. IE:Your body itself

People skills.

These types of training found in many traditional schools bridge across ring training. But not all of these types of training are found in ring training.

How does ring training prepare you for the street?

peace

50

Kung

“Obviously, sparring and weapon drills, specifically knife and club/stick attacks for weapons.”

Very true, you do need to learn about the truths and the fallacies of weapons and how to defend them. Kali and FMA training would benifit everyone who is serious about street defence.

“Continuous attack and defense drills in multiple ranges.”

Once again very true. This is covered well in MMA, where we are forced to deal with every range of fighting.

“Contact sparring either full or with standard courtesy protocols acknowledged by yourself and your training partner or the school you are at.”

I don’t see how this is much different from MMA competitions that traditionals deem “unrealistic”. Every traditionalist on this forum stresses sparring as an element of becoming a good fighter. MMA competitions are just another level of this concept. We take sparring to the ultimate level and get as close to reality as you can get within the law. It’s true, it’s still not the street but it’s closer than anything you can find in the kwoon.

“Awareness training such as scoping rooms or street. Habit training.”

Agreed

“Random attack drills without the defenders prior knowledge”

Ok Kung Lek, how do you do this? Do you jump a student on his way to the car, are you really trying to hurt him when you do?

"Kung Training to harden and condition your natural weapons. IE:Your body itself

People skills."

Agreed

“How does ring training prepare you for the street?”

Ring training provides you with real experience against an opponent who is really trying to hurt you and take you out. Competition is at such a higher stress level than sparring, it’s not the street but it is a hell of alot more intense than sparring with your buddies in the Kwoon. It gives you experience against other styles, other gyms. It will really give you an idea of how your techniques work against a 100% resisting opponent. It gives you an idea of your chin, your threshold of pain and your “fighting spirit” and heart. I’ve seen so many fighters dominate in training and then fold when the pressure was really on in a tournament.

People always say that the street is more difficult than MMA. It’s definately more dangerous and more volatile than the ring but more difficult? thats a fallacy.

51

Chris, I’m neither pro-MMA nor anti. I’m a staunch “traditionalist” who sees the value of extending the training to a venue which addresses Tai Chi’s basic attributes - Energy management and physical stucture which compliment sound tactical movement.

As you know, I’m not blinkered in regard to what Tai Chi entails by the same purpose which drives most MMA players. I think there are a lot of grey areas besides my own in terms of what you outlined above.

Also, I’ve stood against the MMA community’s common preconceptions/misconceptions of what Tai Chi is. Most MMAers would like to think that Tai Chi doesn’t address all the apsects of their sport as an all inclusive system of martial art. Most would like to think it has no ground-fighting, practical weapons study…hell, they don’t even want to believe it’s an effective stand-up fighting system. Most would like to think it’s just for hippies, housewives and old people.

I’m proud of what I’ve done to NOT bring things from other systems to my Tai Chi training to make it stand on its own in the MMA arena.

The only thing I advocate is investigating Tai Chi’s ideas and applying its skill-sets outside the box. Applying its principles in whatever situation…it’s all Tai Chi. :cool:

52

Shooter,

Could you describe some of the techniques used in Tai Chi, or better yet point out a website that has illustrations. I really would like to see how they defend takedowns and their methodology and techniques on the ground.

53

I think one of the problems occuring in this argument is that there seems to be this popular idea that “Either you ring fight or you do forms”, which is silly.

NHB fights are not new to this decade, this century, or even this millenia. The organizations that run the modern ones are new, some of the styles are sort of new, but the events themselves are undoudtedly ancient.

Therefore, NHB competitions were basically invented by traditional martial artists. However, by the same token, the competitions might have been made before martial arts was codified into a traditional structure, therefore, the competitions were, once again, organized by contemporaries.

In any case bjj, muay thai, boxing, shoot, and other such styles commonly seen in these contests have no more right to lecture than the san shou fighters, or the kuoshu fighters.

Another foundation for the argument for ring competitions is that it gives you the opportunity to fight other styles. However, I can fight other stylists without paying any entrance fee, with the same rules, and without making a dime for myself or anyone else. I can’t imagine I’m the only one who gets together with other stylists and goes at it. When we feel ready to go all out, at the same level as a ring fight, we have every intention of doing so. Knowing that, what have I to gain from actually fighting in the ring?

I’m not against ring fighting, I’m against the supposition that it is essential. I’ve seen fighters KO’ed in friendly matches without any title on the line, only testing their arts. Would the fights have been qualitatively better if the event were organized in a way that allowed admissions fees for a crowd, etc.? I don’t think so.

54

Archangel. In my own experience, Tai Chi doesn’t really have techniques. Its tactics and methods are all interchangable or rather, transmutatable. They aren’t bound by specific applications or set-ups. They’re a consequence of flow.

If you do a simple search, you’ll find hundreds of websites which show applications. I don’t know of any which show ground-fighting though.

In regard to your wanting specifics of take-down defenses, Tai Chi’s wrestling is different from school to school depending on the extent to which they incorporate the shuai-chiao aspect of the training.

My own approach to ground-fighting includes sticking, following, linking, adhering, chin-na, and the 8 Gates.

55

Somethings the good is lost

Originally posted by Black Jack
Fu-Pow,
By doing hard freestyle sparring or as WaterDragon stated a sportive based contact event it will remove a number of the techniques that are more based on myth than in real life,

But sometimes effective techniques or their original more dangerous forms are lost (or misplaced :wink: ) Take Judo for example the technique Ippon Seoi nage the traditional jujutsu form which is still in Judo kata(though many judoka don’t know judo has kata) is with the elbow on the shoulder to break the arm while throwing, which obviously causes more damage, but also lifts the person up on their toes making the throw easier. The modern version has the elbow upwards (no break) and takes more umph to throw. IN MMA you could do the older version but, as few judoka know the older version, they cannot use it, as it has almost died out in sport judo. Competition is not bad but when your focus is on winning the match as opposed to making your techniques come alive you kill the bu in budo, also the wu in wushu.

56

Since I seem to fit somewhere in the middle of both of these generic labels in terms of “traditional” and “reality” I will try to answer Archangels valid question on the difference between “ring” training and “scenrio” training.

I am not going to be a mudslinger of either, since I believe you need both types of training, though I am going to change the labels up a little bit into something which I find has a bit more multiformity in it than the two above.

IMHO their are only two basic types of MA two-man combat training technologies-

  1. “Duelling Based”- This is where sparring and ring training come into play, I believe the Britain Parachute Regiment calls this experiance “milling”, this is the squared off mano vrs mano approach, where two or more fighters are aware of the situation and are prepared to fight, this can take the form of a freeform sparring session.

This gives the illusion that unarmed combat is something that always happens at intermdiate range, where both parties are aware, where their are no surprises, in most fights though this is not the case, a large number of fights start and are experianced in close grappling range, often by surprise or very short notice.

Still this is a excellent training tool, among many things, it helps you with understanding aggression, how to maximise your natural attributes, how to strike, how to evade, how to block, how to take a opponent down to the ground, the ability to work out the kinks in real time and under real pressure.

  1. “Non-Duelling Based”- This is where enviromental scenrio training and some two or more person excerisce drills take place, these can be based on the element of surprise or formated on a pre-set up plan to work certain skills around certain obstacles.

The goal here at least IMHO is to develop the instinctive reaction, by giving the fighter “no choice” and not a paint by the numbers approach to fighting, in actual sudden violent encounters the forces of stress, fear, and excitment combine to deprive a fighter of much of his capacity for rational or decisive thought. An example is knife sparring, something which is very rare, most knife fights are going to be by suprise, not where two guys are squared off.

Due to the nature of close quater scenrio training, you will see a decline in fine motor skills, and a shift back to gross motor strikes, hitting, chopping, poking, kicking and biting vital points on the bad guys body, techniques which can be applied to all eventualities, but NOT in a 1-2-3-4-5-6 perfect flow of pre-arranged strikes and arranged principles, something which a person who just practices forms and does not spar nor scenrio train will often think is possible.

With scenrio training you may need to role-play a bit, work in different enviroments besides just the kwoon hall, try the bathroom, the car, a park, the stairs, the woods, different weather and light conditions, practice mugging scenrios, car jackings, attempted abductions, work your techniques from odd positions and angles, hands in your pockets, behind your back, arms on your hips or or crossed in front of you, carrying some books, or a drink, pretend that one of the other students is your mother or girlfriend, and she is with you when this happens, take stories of real-life violence from the paper and act them out to see what you would have done or could do.

These are just thoughts on that I believe are the differences so I hope I don’t get flamed to bad, IMHO both are a priority, as is impact training, solo work, weapon work, and living a healthy lifestyle.

Peace.

57

Shinbushi,

I totally agree:D

I think a person needs both elements, though it does not have to be a commerical tourney, but one of sparring in your own training group.

58

Role Reversal

I agree as well. I consider traditional kung fu training to include forms, sparring, and fighting. Forms only schools are not traditional, and so this view that traditional kung fu fighters don’t fight is misinformed.

Therefore, the contemporary vs. traditional is really reversed. BJJ, muay thai, traditional kung fu, boxing, and other “fighting” arts are more the tradition, whereas tae bo, chung moo quan, point sparring schools, mckwoons, and other arts that do not fight are the contemporary group. Therefore, I believe in the traditional side of the argument, as I study fighting. Confused?

59

About forms.

Forms are the textbooks of a given traditionnal martial art.My experience in Wing Chun allows me to act freely with motions from different forms in no pre-arranged manner depending on the situation.After years of practice, these moves are ingrained and are in no means self-defense tricks to be used against pre-determined attacks.
We practice all kinds of drills and various forms of sparring to sharpen our techniques and reactions.
These things should not be missjuged by peoples who prefer to do otherwise.

The fact that most Kung Fu people are not interrested in mma type competition is a question of personnal tastes. I don’t say these things are bad.It is not my stuff.
Kung Fu is not the mma guys stuff so they should keep their biased jugements on our methods for themselves.
Do your things and stop trolling around.

60

Shooter,

Tai Chi does have interesting principles behind it, however I truly believe that principles need solid techniques to apply them to. The search I did yielded very little, which confused me because you stated earlier that all of the techniques you utilized in MMA were pure Tai Chi. For instance, (indulge me here) how would you deal with a wrestlers double leg - technique only.