Originally posted by Water Dragon
I guess the question is, Will the aspects developed during traditional training carry over to the competitive arena? If they do not, and we have no means to test the methods, how do we know that they are valid at all?
That indeed is the question. Though it might not necessarily always be a question so much of whether the methods themselves work, but a question of if YOU yourself can make them work.
Well, in my most competitive time period I trained so-callled ‘traditionally.’ My teammates and I won and won often. Sure our arsenal was limited in different competitions, but the skills and attributes developed work.
If you just want to do kickboxing and wrestling, one should do kickboxing and wrestling. Don’t try to turn CMA into it, because it ain’t.
On the other hand, there are modern training methods that do help - I’ve really gotten into Eastern European atheletic training methods - some of them really complement my martial arts practice. Evolution is natural, just don’t lose the way.
While I am not totally pro-competition, I have to admit, the schools I did my best training at were pro-competition schools. But the rules were any rules, any time. Which meant under some rules you were under a severe disadvantage.
The problem with being heavily competition oriented is exactly what WD pointed out: “If it’s not good for competition, it gets sidelined” This is what creates point Karate and TKD. I find this idea loathsome as we will lose the practical skills from our training in favor of winning according to a specific set of rules.
Understanding what is valid in a non-sportive arena can be very dificult. I’d wager to say MOST martial artists don’t really know, as they have never lived in an area where they had to fight all the time. Some know what works without realizing it, others have false confidence. How do you know what is real? Unfortunately, you really can’t, unless it something just obviously bogus.
However, a lot of what I teach is innapropriate for competition. But it ends fights quickly. I know, because I lived in a crappy neighborhood in my early twenties. As a teacher, I am honest about things I am not confident in. But if you REALLY need to know, challenge the point. Just be prepared for one of you to go to the hospital and possibly be harmed for life. After all, in martial arts, not sport, that is what we are talking about.
Just looking at Shuai Chiao alone, there are non-sport variations that will wreck you for life. Is that what you want to experience just to see if you are right? Or can you be confident in learning the sportive side to find flaws in your training, and seek an understanding of physiology and kenetics so you can give the dangerous stuff a reasonable nod?
The problem is not traditional material, it is people who ‘think’ they are doing CMA when they aren’t, and it gives us a bad name.
The choice is the students. Have fun.
Just looking at Shuai Chiao alone, there are non-sport variations that will wreck you for life. Is that what you want to experience just to see if you are right? Or can you be confident in learning the sportive side to find flaws in your training, and seek an understanding of physiology and kenetics so you can give the dangerous stuff a reasonable nod?
This is what I’m thinking currently. MonkeySlap, you’ll be receiving a video tape of what I’m about to describe next week. I’d like to break this down in non-specific terms so that others can contribute to this thread.
Basically, I’ve been working one throw (w/ variations) since January. I’ve made a lot of progress with it, went and tried it on the BJJ guys and failed. (competition) Now I know that there is no way that throw would have worked the way I was doing it. The problem has been fixed since then and I do have a chance of pulling it off now. Point is, it took me trying and failing to realize what I was doing wrong. Now, I have no doubt that the traditional training I was put through gave me the attributes to pull the basic throw off, but the lack of trying it on a resisting individual left me with a couple false assumptions.
We’re actually trying to work this out somehow in class, which is why I’m posting this thread; to get as many opinions as possible. One thing that was pointed out to me was that there are a few variations that we CANNOT do against a resisting attacker. That’s fine with me, I have no problem with that. I still want to learn those too. In fact, I am confident that when I gat to the point of pulling off the safer variations, the other ones will work too.
One thing that did come from this is that the traditional methods make a lot of sense to me now. They all develop specific aspects that are vital to pulling off the technique “for real.” One of the big problems I had was thinking the tools were used differently than they actually are. I’m emphasizing different things now in my training, and so far, my teacher has been happy with the results. Again, those results were initiated by my attempting to pull off the throw in a live situation, and failing.
Thoughts?
Sure - that’s the purpose of using competition as a training methodology. What concerns me is the intent to change a method to fit competition.
Most of the things that are ‘big’ issues to me in training are things I discovered needed to be emphasized in order to really pull something off - and I agree, without practicing against a resisting opponent you won’t really know if you know how to pull the technique off.
So yeah, I agree with you. Within the structure I’ve outlined before. Heck, that was Brian’s intro for me - ‘this guy fought everybody, all the time.’ It is how you learn.
No I gotta go grouse about something else…
sportive = competition.
competition will sort out the effective from the useless, and your training will be better for it.
sports also mean better conditioning and athletisism and that is a huge part of being a sucessful martial artist.
take my beloved cma sanshou (Ok so I’m a judoka now but you know what I’m saying) It has synthesized effective kicking, punching and throwing from the traditional cma.
And make no doubt about it the guys training for sanshou have strength and endurance. The guys who just competed at the NY tournament could attest.
Does that mean it has the answer to everything. No.
No way, but it is a great nucleus or foundation for training. adding sanshou’s military applications and self defense and groundwork make for a VERY well rounded martial artist and athlete. How many times has your instructor stressed knowing your fundamentals? What better opporitunity to test these skills than in a safe enviornment. Its much better to test them there then on the street.
Originally posted by Water Dragon
[B]Basically, I’ve been working one throw (w/ variations) since January. I’ve made a lot of progress with it, went and tried it on the BJJ guys and failed.
Thoughts?
I don’t think you should be trying to hone your throwing skills against BJJ practioners. As a rule, thier takedowns and defenses are not very good. If you want to test your takedowns and throws, you should be working out with a judo club or college wrestling team. I was a wrestler with below average takedowns and could pretty much walk through the BJJ guys in takedowns from the time I started.
In the end - it’s all just about what you want from your training no?
IMHO, tournaments are too far removed from reality, and if you train for competition then your redirection will hamper slightly your street-effectiveness.
Most competition in schools is Semi-Contact, where speed and accuracy are the main important factors. Street survival is about power, ruthlessness and a “never-say-die” attitude.
If you are training to win a championship, your onus will be different.
No? At the end of the day, I know a lot of semi-contact fighteres who have won tournaments, and are still pretty tough, but they don’t compare to a nutcase who cares less about the shape of his face.
As for CMA “needing” sporting elements: To draw a higher attendance yes they do - as this is what most people want, competition + fitness work.
Do I want this? No, it leads to commercialisation. And the less people that do CMA the better - I can reinforce my elitist “One of a kind” attitude 
This is one of the better threads in a long, long time…thanks Water Dragon. I’m pretty much on the same page as MonkeySlapToo in that in many cases it can keep a school/style of martial arts from getting too artsy ****sy. However, there are definitely a whole class of tactics which simply don’t have a sporting equivalent to them. Not just certain targets, but methods of sneak attack and certain follow-ups come to mind.
The way WD’s questions were phrased also implies two and only two diametrically opposed camps on these issues. IME, there is at least one other “faction” that seems never to get mentioned in these kinds of debates. It is neither those traditionalists who never make contact with another human and only practice forms NOR the “competition is everything” crowd whose entire training is geared toward a spectator arena. Instead, it would be those people who, like the NHB folks, aren’t interested in anything artsy or unrealistic, but who also, like the traditionalists, aren’t interested in training for any kind of sport, trophy, title or validation through competition. I’m talking of those who are interested in training in reality combat for reality…for REAL life-or-death combat. It may be a smaller group than either of the other two, but it’s large enough for their objectives to be considered a factor in these types of discussions.
Another separate point to be considered here is that what is good for the art isn’t necessarily good for any given individual artist. In evidence, history is strewn with many broken bones, ruined joints, skewered eyes, ruptured organs, crushed throats and dead bodies to give us many of the arts we have today. Without what was learned by and through these unfortunate souls, the art wouldn’t necessarily be as effective as it is today.
What this points to is the need for a crucible of whatever sort in order to prove, maintain, innovate, and evolve any martial art. Traditionalists may do well to remember that in days when their arts had no sport applications, people were regularly getting hurt or killed in the learning and development of their art. In lieu of that, such as the climate we generally enjoy today, sporting events can at least provide some form of crucible that most arts no longer have, at least in Western societies.
However, despite the vociferous claims by certain NHB supporters/competitors, sporting events, no matter how bare-bones in terms of rules, are but a pale shadow of real life-or-death combat in terms of providing an effective crucible. I say this as someone who has participated in all three aspects: I’ve competed in full-contact sport martial arts, I’ve lived through real life-or-death combat, and I’ve practiced traditional methods including various forms.
While it definitely affects certain styles more than others, creating a sport version of a martial art DOES water down its real combat effectiveness. The trick is, how easily can a given practitioner drain off that water when faced with a real fight in the street. Again, doing so is easier with certain styles than it is with others.
Now the question becomes a choice that is dependent on one’s priorities. Do we hold to only the highest standard in terms of an effective crucible? If so, we no longer need sport versions, but we must be prepared to endure a society where hand-to-hand violence is commonplace and innocent people are hurt or killed in large numbers on a regular basis. Do we lower our standard and instead use sporting competitions as our crucible? If so, while we may have to endure the watering-down of our arts, we also get to enjoy a society where people are basically safer in their everyday lives. Where, if you make a mistake or their is a hole in your training, you will probably live long enough to fix it.
The crucible is needed, whatever form it takes. Without it, our arts become empty ritualized choreographies useless for anything but entertainment. But that crucible comes at a price, one way or the other.
What Chris said…
Cool. I’m actually working on another thread for that topic. i.e. Does a venue exist that would meet these goals, or does it still need to be created?
Agreed with you guys…I think the challenge is finding the right balance so that as much as possible is honed and improved and as little (or nothing) as possible is lost, watered down or atrophied. Just what is the optimal format and balance, as WD is getting at, is the next question…a tough one. I really don’t know, I’m trying to find that balance myself, and I really don’t have an answer…A good question to think about over the weekend.
One thing I notice when you try to combine street defence and teach competive sparring is most students just tend to jump around throw a jab, hook ect. Where is your art then.I see very little real tech. it all starts to look the same.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ky-Fi
[B]To be honest, if you put a real rapier in the hands of a 2 year fencing student, and a real sword in the hands of a 2 year Taiji sword student, IMO the Western fencer would destroy the Taiji guy easily. If you’re talking 10 years though, and the Taiji guy has gone through the traditional training which does include free sparring, then he’s going to be a much more powerful swordsman, IMO, at the end because of the depth of art he’s learned. [B/]
I see no one has taught you Epee yet. . . Which can be free sparring. . .
~6 year fencer dre
Dre - Epee rules, while more liberal than foil or saber, are still a very far call from free sparring, as you must know if you’ve been doing it for six years.
Many of my FIRST-YEAR training partners have, and are competing in MMA and sub-wrestling at a decent level with their basic Tai Chi training.
What’s stopping anyone with 5 or more years of training from getting in the ring already? It’s not a stretch to think that years of “traditional” “authentic” “deadly” training can’t be dumbed down for such a low-level test of basic skills as what MMA provides is it?
“If you just want to do kickboxing and wrestling, one should do kickboxing and wrestling. Don’t try to turn CMA into it, because it ain’t”
That’s a matter of your own limited perception…
The problem is not traditional material, it is people who ‘think’ they are doing CMA when they aren’t, and it gives us a bad name.
Giving “us” a bad name? Who’s “us”? I read statements like that all the time. Who are these people that give CMA such a bad name?
No…
I believe that there is a lot more to gain in martial arts than winning some competition.Kung Fu needs only to be studied and be passed down to the next generation as it is in it’s many aspects.
If someone want to do sport…Well, he just has to join a BJJ,MMA,kick boxing or whatever school!
I like what I do and I like it as it is.
Oh, you silly intellectual wing chun guys!
Shooter,
I can appreciate what you’re trying to do in general. I have to admit to a certain curiosity as to how it’ll turn out. That’s the nice part. Now here comes the spanking part. RE:“What’s stopping anyone with 5 or more years of training from getting in the ring already?”. Man does THIS ever reflect a limited perception. For starters, I’d say lack of interest. Ya gotsta gotsta gotsta remember that the vast majority of average Joe’s and Josephine’s get into the martial arts for self-defense purposes. Some may be interested in competing in the sport versions. Statistically, most are not.
I like that you encourage folks to try their hand at it; that may tip some of the fence riders off into a new world of fun competing. But please don’t make the mistake of lumping EVERYBODY else in with it. I mean, by the reasoning you’re using here, I could very well say something like, “What’s stopping anyone with 5 or more years of NHB experience from practicing a form already?”, or just as logically, “What’s stopping anyone with 5 or more years of MMA training from trying their hand at real life-or-death combat already?”.
Those kind of questions look a little silly from a distance, but the same logic is used in all three of 'em. The obvious answer is probably the most correct one in all three cases: “because they don’t want to”.
Regular testing, whether for real or in the ring, is good for any art to keep it healthy at what it’s supposed to do. However, it doesn’t take every single practitioner of that art to keep it tested. Additionally, the testing that’s good for the art isn’t always in the best interest of any given individual artist. Those that don’t want the job of keeping their art regularly tested can simply enjoy practicing it, perhaps with a certain awareness of appreciation for those who ARE willing to get in there and play the role of the guinea pig.
Bottom line is: not all those who believe they have the ABILITY to compete in MMA/NHB necessarily have the DESIRE to do so. To each, their own.
CMA are sportified now.
Competition wushu is part of the 2008 olympics and is already a big deal in China as well as other countries.
San Shou in the form of an offshoot of the competition wushu styles in China is pretty popular as far as “ring” fighting goes and in North America and some other countries it is used not only as the offshoot of wushu but also in many forms coming from traditional stylists who wish to compete in the “Lei Tai” type competitions of days gone buy. (without the “to the death” aspect of course)
San Shou is also an alternative to the very popular Muay Thai fights that have recently emerged in the west here but have been very popular in southeast asia for some time.
As far as the mongolian wrestling, sumo etc, these are pretty much -partially- designed as ritualistic and sporting arts (with the exception of the offshoots of them that involve killing people as is demonstrated in some of the particularly damaging tosses learned in the cma/mongol forms of wrestling ) even back in time when these “arts” were used on the battlefield, guys in the field were more likely to be archers , pikemen, spear carriers or swordsman as opposed to wrestling with other combatants.
Hand to hand training of the ancient warrior would likely not focus on wrestling so much as it would look at more succint and efficient ways of dealing with those at close range.
There will always be traditional non sporting types of martial arts schools. These schools usually offer more than martial arts anyway. Often there is meditation, character development, cultural activity innate to the Chinese such as lion dance as well as a variety of other things that one would generally not be exposed to in a typical self-defence centric training hall. Or a sport centric treaining hall.
The same is true of other asian martial arts.
peace
Chris, point taken.