Do you have a root?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Edmund;932072]Well now I’m not sure what your definition is.

I think just having contact with the ground isn’t quite the same as thing.

Someone stumbling around is not in a position to actually fight or even control where they want to go but they are still “on the ground”![/QUOTE]

Uh, the common definition in any major dictionary, as in to become fixed or established.

Having contact with the ground is the same thing.

Root, is like saying punch. Anyone can root. Anyone can punch, but understanding the intricacies of such give way to stronger root, stronger punch.

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[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;932132]In The YJKYM you can’t move,and in fighting you have to move. It could be used to cover-up the groin say from a kick.Used sort of as a last resort or caught by suprise other then that I don’t see any use for it as far as fighting.[/QUOTE]

From my perspective and IME, the YJKYM is not a stance or a static or immovable positition, it is a “horse”, a way of using the (whole) body. And you can step with it, turn with it, sink with it, etc. It is the basis for everything else in WCK. Moreover, in fighting, you sometimes are stepping, sometimes turning, sometimes stationary, etc.

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[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;932132]In The YJKYM you can’t move,and in fighting you have to move. It could be used to cover-up the groin say from a kick.Used sort of as a last resort or caught by suprise other then that I don’t see any use for it as far as fighting.[/QUOTE]

Why do you feel you can not move in YGKYM?

Isn’t it possible to lift the knee to cover. To step backwards or sideways from YGKYM?

What about when your inclose. Could YGKYM be used to adminster elbow strikes more effeciently?

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[QUOTE=AdrianK;932142]Uh, the common definition in any major dictionary, as in to become fixed or established.

Having contact with the ground is the same thing.

Root, is like saying punch. Anyone can root. Anyone can punch, but understanding the intricacies of such give way to stronger root, stronger punch.[/QUOTE]

How is that “fixed” to the ground? You’re not anchored.

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[QUOTE=Edmund;932183]How is that “fixed” to the ground? You’re not anchored.[/QUOTE]

Please elaborate on your statement?

Whats your contradicting opinion?

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[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;932199]Please elaborate on your statement?

Whats your contradicting opinion?[/QUOTE]

AdrianK said anyone not leaping in the air is rooted.

THEN he said the definition is anything fixed to the ground.

I don’t want to stick words in his mouth but I think he’s saying that everyone is rooted to differing degrees even the most unbalanced person tripping over themselves.

While that may agree with AdrianK’s definition of the term, it’s not that helpful. The term isn’t meant to discuss all the people flying in the air!

Most discussions want to contrast between people tripping over themselves and people in a balanced stable posture.

So FFS let’s at least put the topic of airborne people aside in the discussion: unrooted = falling over yourself (or if you must include them, the airborne people also are unrooted). Rooted = not falling over yourself.

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How is that “fixed” to the ground? You’re not anchored.

Anchor or Anchored is not a synonym of fixed. So your interpretation of the definition is incorrect.

Definitively fixed can mean, attached(which by extension can mean either connected or bound), made stable or permanent, set or intent upon something.

I would call someone who is stumbling all over themselves as having root, however definitively even if you’re stumbling over yourself, there is one part, even as small as a toe or the side of your foot, that is firmly connected to the ground well enough so that you don’t down. That root is a variable that if you’re stumbling over yourself, changes from point to point, but nonetheless, it is root, by definition. Better described as weak root, but still root.

it’s not that helpful. The term isn’t meant to discuss all the people flying in the air!

Its actually very helpful if you understand root as something that is a part of life, not a technique. This allows you to look at root as a concept, and apply it to everything you do, instead of just what you’re taught to do.

Most discussions want to contrast between people tripping over themselves and people in a balanced stable posture.

Those discussions should then discuss the concepts and techniques of rooting as how it relates to the martial arts, and not the definition, or something as abstract and vague as “do you have a root”, “you can’t root in this position”, etc.

Or you could even say, do you have a strong root? Or do you have a weak root? Descriptive terms like that allow you to properly express yourself to other people.

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Is there ever a time where YGKYM can be used in fighting?

StoneCrusher69 wrote

In The YJKYM you can’t move,and in fighting you have to move. It could be used to cover-up the groin say from a kick.Used sort of as a last resort or caught by suprise other then that I don’t see any use for it as far as fighting"

Here are a few ways that CRCA Wing Chun utilizes YJKYM in a fight…

Use YJKYM to resist Hip Throw by sinking your center of gravity lower than his.

Use YJKYM structure when in Mount position for stability; feet turned out wider than hips for easy stand up. YJKYM used in Defense vs Guillotine; He has Frontal Headlock (Guillotine) > Get same side hand inside his grip/other arm reaches as far as possible over his opposite shoulder, Step around opposite side/YJKYM Knee Breakdown into Takedown/Shoulder into throat.

Use when he has your guard choking or choking/punching > Plant feet on floor/raise pelvis for distance/squeeze knees together to keep him as far away as possible. In Open Guard, use knees rotated inward driven into his hips to keep him away from punching distance.

Use when he has Mount > Plant feet, sharply raise hips to YJKYM cradled position, Tai Sut to buck him off.

JING MA - Shows YJKYM combat usage - Jing Ma returns your stance to YJKYM, for an example , if I am open with my opponent he throws a jab, I block with Jom Sau, I lop with my rear guarding hand and strike his throat with my Jom hand. It will hurt him, but if I Jing Ma while I am hitting his throat. I have now added footwork which in this example will add power to my throat chop which will hurt my opponent much more than if i hadnt. When I Jing Ma I return to YJKYM, this is one more example of using YJKYM in combat…

By the way Jing Ma is intoduced in our Chum Kui …

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[QUOTE=AdrianK;932227]
I would call someone who is stumbling all over themselves as having root, however definitively even if you’re stumbling over yourself, there is one part, even as small as a toe or the side of your foot, that is firmly connected to the ground well enough so that you don’t down. That root is a variable that if you’re stumbling over yourself, changes from point to point, but nonetheless, it is root, by definition. Better described as weak root, but still root.

Its actually very helpful if you understand root as something that is a part of life, not a technique. This allows you to look at root as a concept, and apply it to everything you do, instead of just what you’re taught to do.
[/QUOTE]

Well if you think it’s helpful, okay.

I just find yours a very liberal and inclusive definition.

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Well thats because it is a very liberal and inclusive definition. The problem is this - Root as it relates to martial arts is defined in several different ways depending on who you talk to. Because there is not a single agreed term to the definition of root when it comes to martial arts, we need to go back to the definition itself to have any kind of factual description.

If you’d like to define what a good root is, then that is where the more in-depth and helpful descriptions come into play. Maybe we should have a word for good root? For instance, there is a difference between punch and jab, or punch and cross, or punch and hook.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;932117]Another way to look at it is if you want to learn how to push a car, then get out and really push a car (or have someone who can push a car really well show you how to do it). You don’t need any silly concept of “root” or “rooting” to DO that. That’s why boxers, kickboxers, etc. who are really out there “pushing cars” find they don’t need to talk about “root”.

There are mechanically sound ways to do anything. “Root” doesn’t really help explain it, describe it, or do it.[/QUOTE]

using your same analogy, would some doing weight (for example) not increse his ‘car pushing’ skills? by training the attributes of ‘car pushing’ (strength).

also why do MMA fighters run/skip etc etc is this not to train attributes (endurance)?

i agree with you for the most part about you must train to fight and practise your art by fighting. but the part i disagree on is the ‘fighting alone will only improve you’ style stance

IMHO wc IS a complete art. the only problems with wc technique is the person using it. however if these individual techniques are practised enough in isolation then they CAN be used in a ‘live’ situation (sparring/tournaments/street/whatever)

with all due respect i think advocating fighting as the one true way to practice wc is wrong. too much sparring and not enough time on other things will actually diminish your skills. if you learn a technique that is used very infrequently and you spar and spar and spar and you dont use that technique for a while it will eventually leave you. you must practise everything you have been taught, but i do agree that you must spar too

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;932146]From my perspective and IME, the YJKYM is not a stance or a static or immovable positition, it is a “horse”, a way of using the (whole) body. And you can step with it, turn with it, sink with it, etc. It is the basis for everything else in WCK. Moreover, in fighting, you sometimes are stepping, sometimes turning, sometimes stationary, etc.[/QUOTE]

agreed entirely

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Why make it such a big deal?

Rooting in Chinese just means the ability to make use of the Ground support at the needed instant.

There are variaty of ways of that making use of the Ground Support.

BTW, the way how Taiji Tap/making use of Ground are different compare with WCK making use of Ground ; due to the different structure or the platform of the art.

Thus, importing Taiji or other art’s even the Hung Gar iron wire will for sure screw up WCK cultivation if one is not clear on what is what.

EI: a simple question is so how is the so called rooting support the Chang Dai Lek or Force under the elbow? Will in general the Taiji type of rooting lead one to develop Chang Dai Lek? Will Iron Wire ?

For some, what is Chang Dai Lek or of WCK’s trade mark? how is it develop? one could in general screen off to know if it is WCK or not via examine does the art got Chang Dai Lek.

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[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;932154]Why do you feel you can not move in YGKYM?

Isn’t it possible to lift the knee to cover. To step backwards or sideways from YGKYM?

What about when your inclose. Could YGKYM be used to adminster elbow strikes more effeciently?[/QUOTE]

if you step backwards or sideways or anyother way is that the YGKYM?

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;932117]

That’s why boxers, kickboxers, etc. who are really out there “pushing cars” find they don’t need to talk about “root”.

There are mechanically sound ways to do anything. “Root” doesn’t really help explain it, describe it, or do it.[/QUOTE]

That is because you have no clue on what the Chinese means by “root” or “rooting”.

MT kicker root different then a boxer. pushing a car root different then MT kicker… with the term Rooting, if one knows one can be very specifically communicate what type of root. and that you are clueless.

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[QUOTE=Katsu Jin Ken;932001]:smiley: excellent!! not to long which i like, good info for beginners and vets alike.[/QUOTE]

Glad you liked it..

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Rooting , in general there are two different type of rooting. and from these two different types more derivative are given birth to.

Thus, Rooting is something DEAD similar to the Root of a Tree. It is a live and dynamic.

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;932429]Rooting , in general there are two different type of rooting. and from these two different types more derivative are given birth to.

Thus, Rooting is something DEAD similar to the Root of a Tree. It is a live and dynamic.[/QUOTE]

It would be nice if you can write something on these two types of rooting your talking about.

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[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;932431]It would be nice if you can write something on these two types of rooting your talking about.[/QUOTE]

I would let others who knows WCK to share first. That way I can learn also.

and

most of so called Rooting or Structure training of YJKYM doesnt even work when one stand on the top of a wrestling mat.

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YJKYM is a training tool to get you to “feel” your root. As SLT is the only stationary (that is you dont move the legs) form, rooting is introduced in the beginning because it is somethin you need from the very beginning. SLT is the “beginning” of the WC system so why not learn all the tools including rooting at the beginning of the system. YJKYM isnt a fighting stance its a training stance. If you spar in YJKYM your much much better than me.

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[QUOTE=Katsu Jin Ken;932511]

1, YJKYM is a training tool to get you to “feel” your root.

2, As SLT is the only stationary (that is you dont move the legs) form, .[/QUOTE]

Your idea above is a contradiction; and the root cause of a serious WCK problem.

Again, similar in the WuZu Vesus WCK Chi sau thread some with CRITICAL THINKING might think what I said doesnt make any sense.

Silence and all these stuffs doesnt make any sense with CRITICAL LOGICAL THINKING because it is not about THINKING but KNOWing.

A nature one piece trying to describe with multiple segments and every blind keep speculating with what they touches. and all are blind.

Just some thoughts.