Joy:
Okay…fair enough. But what about the points I made concerning the knuckle pushups?
Victor- I am gainst the standard military push ups -they involve too much
tensing of the triceps… different from so called “hindu” push ups
in which there is more variation in muscle usage and the cycles
and waves of the motions. But I digress.
Beginners should not worry about phoenix eye -need appropriate
wing chun “level” of development to understand the possible paths of the fist. Soft progressive bag work can develop the digits
and knuckles- minimizing the risks of long run damage and loss of flexibility of ligaments, tendons and joints..
Ip Man wasa complex man- didnt use a cookie cutter in his teachings. His Fatshan students remembered his usage of the phoenix eye.
joy
Joy:
I prefer the Hindu pushups myself…and agreed - beginners shouldn’t really get involved with the phoenix eye strikes…Soft progressive bag work is also a good idea (which I’ve done) - and from there I personally have gone on to doing the knuckle pushups - first putting some padding down on the floor…eventually just the floor.
It works for me.
FWIW, from what I have been taught about the Pheonix eye fist, is that it does not require that much special conditioning. This is because when its used. Striking soft points like inside bicept, inside wrist, neck, zaphoid process. If the Pheonix Eye is held right and executed right special conditioning is not totally needed. However in retrospect it will definately help when you do not strike correctly.
Iron body is not needed IMO. Internal power is more important IMO, over iron body. I do iron palm training however, but really it helps heal my hand injuries more than make my hand tough. The iron plam training I do is an internal conditioning training method, not external. I do not break bone and let calcium deposits grow over my knuckles to make my hand tough.
there are more than just a few points that are extremely easy to get to in every region of your body ( meaning there is always something significant exposed ) and require minimum force to do great damage…with all sorts of different blows, fist, half fist, sapear, half spear, finger, knuckel, several knuckles, palm, pull, stroke, squeeze, ball of foot, heel, toe, tiger claw, eagle, dragon, elbow, knee etc etc
Iron body applicable to dim mak is good to protect points on your core, but chances are that A. your opponent will not even know what dim mak is, let alone be using it and B. if your aware of these ponts, there’s little chance you’d be leaving them open anyway.
Joy wrote:
>>Ip Man made a copy of a dim mak work with illustrations. Ip Ching has a copy. One copy disappeared. Approaches to dim mak vary in families and TCMA styles. WC will use its own principles, southern mantis and eagle claw etc will use theirs etc.<<
I was waiting for someone to write that Yip Man made a Dim Mak chart. I didn’t want to have to read the posts of the naysayers so I just smiled when some one didn’t think WC had Dim Mak. Cheung Sifu has a copy. Not the one that disapperead…smile. Like Andrew says, Cheung Sifu teaches that it’s really hard to apply all the time because of the dynamics in a real fight. There are points on the body that will hurt or cause more damage than others. Dim Mak isn’t mystical as the name implies. It’s common sense places to strike. Even western Doctors know of certain sensitive pressure points.
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
it’s really hard to apply all the time because of the dynamics in a real fight.
Thus, I have heard it is not so. If the grapper can take one down disregard one is standing or punching and kicking. Then, it can be done. If they can do a take down, then WCK people should be able to do a close in target strike.
In the old time, Dim Mark or Huit ( one needs to differentiate between Dim Mark and Dim Huit) is used to tame and/or handle the metal sick patients who is out of control. without hurting them. so that is not worse that a real fight.
Remember, some of those in Redboat were Chinese doctors who can fix body and bones too? IF these part of data being re evoke. Then, you might not need bjj…
Yes, there were information. 
But ultimately is about can one generate that jing which is needed under the circumstances. almost needed a Zero Delay all condition jing generation.
The more this type of topic got dig out, it will only point to a direction — the WCK’s close body generation, figthing method, … has been lost. IT is not that Phenix eyes… it is that power generation… phenix eye is just a drill bit for a certain application. if you do have a drillmo. you got to get one first.
Dont believe me? go to the Dit Da place and see how people fixing hands and elbow and … how did they do it?
Just some wild thoughts.
Hi Hendrik- agree with your last posts. Close quarters working dynamics has been eroded considerably. Lot more to it than gouging and biting.
In any case, I was watchinga preview of Helen Liang doing emei
snake style. A serious question - is that snake style related to what you know about the possible emei snake-fulien white crane connections to old wing chun?
joy
Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]Hi Hendrik- agree with your last posts. Close quarters working dynamics has been eroded considerably. Lot more to it than gouging and biting.
In any case, I was watchinga preview of Helen Liang doing emei
snake style. A serious question - is that snake style related to what you know about the possible emei snake-fulien white crane connections to old wing chun?
joy [/B]
Joy,
I have not watched Helen Liang stuffs. But Emei 12 post is the Grandfather of lots of emei martial arts since it is more then 700 years old. So there will be no suprise that emei 12 zhuang influence Helen’s style.
hey kathy jo
I was wondering why EVERY post you type is politically correct.
Every opinion you give is always in the middle of an argument and never on either extreme. And the worse part is that there are guys on this forum that kiss your but after you type one of your posts. So I’m wondering if you do this on purpose to make us like you?
The internet stalker has spoken!
With regard to the Phoenix-eye fist - I related what GM Cheung said at the seminar regarding the conditioning aspects, I did not put it forth as an epigram of absolute fact.]
When I did Xingyi, which uses the similar fist for its wood punch, no requirements for hand conditioning of this nature were mentioned during my five years of study.
Common sense would indicate that one should cultivate reasonable strength and structure in this hand shape before attempting to damage anyone with it, lest the damage be done to your hand instead. It may be designed for soft targets, but you may strike a hard target by accident.
More on the Dim Mak controversy from Stickgrappler’s site:
"In the 1950’s, Chang Tung Sheng, grandmaster of the Pao Ting Chinese wrestling system, national free sparring champion of China and undefeated in all challenges (and would remain so the rest of his life!) gave an interview in a Chinese news paper. He said that for years, he had heard people say that wrestling was not effective because to get that close, you could be subject to the fabled death touch of dim mak! "
"Chang found the comment amusing because he said that in all his years of fighting, it had never happened. It had never happened even when fighting so called experts at Dim Mak. In a nut shell, Chang said two more things. First, that if he could get close to you, he could hurt you! (It was the truth, pure and simple and if you’ve ever seen tapes of the 70 year old Chang tossing people you’d understand completely). Second, he said the whole Dim Mak thing was created by NON FIGHTERS to avoid fighting, keep their students and take money from other non fighters. "
"Chang then issued a very public challenge with money involved for anyone to Dim mak him. For another 30 plus years (the rest of his life) it never happened. "
Re: hey kathy jo
Originally posted by travelsbyknight
I was wondering why EVERY post you type is politically correct.
If making an effort to speak reasonably, to be civil and considerate of the diverse feelings, experiences, interests and intellect of others equals political correctness, so be it.
Every opinion you give is always in the middle of an argument and never on either extreme.
Those who actually pay attention either see what I’m on about, or make a point to inquire further if interested or sufficiently curious (though that rarely happens of late). For better or worse, most probably see what they want to see just as they do in the writings of others. Perception is a funny creature. I also find little value or benefit in intruding on others’ right and privilege to reason for themselves.
And the worse part is that there are guys on this forum that kiss your but after you type one of your posts.
More often than not, those who pipe in favorably are friends or long term acquaintances who have some sense of where I’m coming from. For better or worse, I’ve been around the Wing Chun “neighborhood” for awhile.
So I’m wondering if you do this on purpose to make us like you?
Those who will, do; those who won’t, don’t. I’m acutely aware that there are plenty of each.
I come here - sometimes more, sometimes less - to read, to join in civil dialog, sometimes to laugh, and occasionally even to share some small thing relating to Wing Chun, or at least my personal views or experiences on the subject. I do try to bear in mind the old saying, “Opinions are like [certain orifices]; everybody has one.” Most of the time, there are already more than enough in the mix.
Generally, my minor contributions are offered as little more than food for thought, or something to question the status quo or assumptions of an assertion or debate. Most people don’t enjoy being lectured, let alone by me. Though from time to time (and time permitting), I’m perfectly willing to indulge the rare few who may be sincerely interested. Especially if I sense that someone may actually be listening.
Because I enjoy reading and entertaining diverse views and voices in a civil forum, it’s also not unusual for me to put my $.02 in on the process of dialog and exchange if things seem to be heading rapidly down the toilet - and provided I can perceive any shred of hope toward an improved state of interchange. Regardless of my rather strong personal views and preferences, I don’t come here to waste my time and energy in pushing a specific agenda, save one of civil exchange on the subject of Wing Chun. What’s your gig??
The internet stalker has spoken!
Thanks for your interest, but enough about me. Is there some Wing Chun related question on which you’d like my perspective?
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Hendrick,
I should have written it “can” be hard to apply if not properly trained. You seem to know as I do that it can be done.
Good post KJ.
travelsbyknight per his profile posts from his quite common (on this forum and a couple of others )anonymous vantage point.
travelsby knight must be from a different universe because kj definitely has clear and definite views on wing chun.
Civility in expression is quite different from political correctness.
Somefolks like myself have met kj and hence seem conversational at times
in responding to kj’s posts .
joy
what seems to be going on right across these boards are “battles” or silly arguments getting personal between internal practitioners with information and experience and external practioners who deny it exists???
I’m tired, so welcome to your disscussions
what seems to be going on right across these boards are “battles” or silly arguments getting personal between internal practitioners with information and experience and external practioners who deny it exists???
I agree the personal attack was out of line.
I think the real question is whether your alleged pearls of wisdom, which the rest of us swine ignored, are actually of value in the real world.
BTW I have information and quite a lot of experience in internal MA. I think the second link in my .sig shows that I have some knowledge of closely related topics.
One of my teachers can cause great (though temporary) pain by grasping “nerve points” in many locations on the human body - he is REALLY, scarily, good at this - but he disavows any relationship with Dim Mak. If he were attacked, he’d much rather hit the guy in several of the basic targets we all know or lock him up with chin na (which he is also terrifyingly efficient at) - much more reliable.
If this stuff was real, surely we would have seen or heard more of it in court cases and the like … ah, but it’s too deadly … so when was the last time a “Master” got thrown in the slammer for its abuse? Are they all too morally pure for that? GMAB.
If it IS real, how will you defend its use after your arrest? How will your Sifu justify having taught it to you?
Haven’t been reading this thread for a few days - just caught up…
travelsby knight: You should be ashamed of yourself - unless you’re a woman looking for a cat-fight…in which case I’ll withdraw my two cents and stay out of it.
But if you’re a man - even if what you said was true - AND I’M NOT SAYING THAT IT WAS…
but even if true - what would be the point of trying to embarrass Kathy Jo like that?
That was just downright nasty !
I wasn’t trying to embarrass her. I was just asking a question.
There’s no such thing as a dumb question.
travelsbyknight sez;
There’s no such thing as a dumb question
Nonsense. It was worse than dumb. Your question was not really a question- it already had an entwined answer or assertion in it.
And then referring to yourself as a stalker was in pretty poor taste and seriously improper.
yaunfen
shut up.
There’s not point in raising your blood pressure over this. Get a life.