Different openings of BM forms?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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Hey guys, recently theres been a thread about the “different beginnings in choy lay fut forms”. I know in wing chun, that most different lineages (from yip man) have pretty much the same opening for Siu Lim Tao. Both hands cross and mark the centeline top and bottom, with 2 punches and huen sau to withdraw the fists. Then the form begins proper. It got me thinking…

I have been lucky enough to see some Bak Mei before, and as you know i respect and am interested in the system. I have seen the Jik Bo from the Cheung Bing Lum lineage. If i remember correctly i will try to explain the opening (sorry if you already know what i mean)…from the palm heel on fist position, the left hand does some sort of arc outwards to his left hand side and comes back in. Then arms open out into something that looks like a double bil jee but with arms angled outwards. The right hand is an upside down bil jee (palm up) when the left one is extended. Then from here it was a bil jee or punch next (can’t remember clearly), which continues until the end of the room/park/pavement etc.

I remember seeing Jackie Chan a while ago on a UK program called TFI Friday (I’m a Jackie fan but who isn’t ;)). After the interview he was asked to do a demonstration of some Kung Fu. Theres a link of the video clip of Jackie here (i just stuck it up so u could see what i’m trying to explain :p).

He does the palm heel-on-fist salute, then flips his wrists and ends up doing the bil jee with the left hand. Also the upside down bil jee with the right - the same hand positions as the other opening i have seen, but without the kinda out-in-out movement of the left hand to get to this position. Now if i remember correctly (from a previous thread), it was mentioned before that Jackie learned some Bak Mei from a Sifu in London of the Cheung Beng Fat line? Is that where the difference comes from? Or just Jackie forgetting things? :smiley:

Hey, how does YKM start their Jik Bo? Is it the same as either of those mentioned (badly) before? I’m expecting a “buy the book” answer :smiley: (I hope that side of things is all going well for ya mate!).

It’s interesting to see the interpretation and diversity of any skill, don’t ya think? :slight_smile:

david

edit: sorry bout the quality of the video clip!

2

The Begger hand…

Hi Dezhen2001,

You are most likely talk about the begger hand. After saluting the “brothers” from 5 lakes and 4 seas, you ask them for money. :wink: :smiley:

Seriously, it has a few applications. One of them being a elbow breaking move [ that’s with the countering action of both left face down palm and the right face up palm]. If the person counters the elbow break with his left (you are trying to break his right hand punch), then you bil Jee (left) to the eyes. As he blocks/parry with his left, you unleash your pheonix eye punch to the solar plex. 1-2-3 done. There are others combos but this one is the easiest and you won’t miss. So…

Regards

Mantis108

PS disclaimer : no person of Bak Mei style including Mantis108 will be responsible if personal and/or property injury and/or damage of any kind and/or form with the use of techniques described within this thread.

3

hmmm mantis if the guy was trying push you maybe, but a punch i doubt you could catch the punch and break the arm. I have a different method for yum yeurng sau move attacking major dim mak points on the neck using ying and yang theories.

FT :slight_smile:

4

m 108

oh my god gave another one of your secrets out.lol

i beg to differ of course about the arm break?have you not up the level yet mantis 108?
e.g fu-jow ;even with one arm,cut across centerline then you don’t need to punch for you have already"bui" to the throat[at 45% to the wind pipe]

p.s i took your advice to seek a teacher,and you were right,they wouldn’t except me for them fallin on the floor to fast.lol…i’ll show you if you want;) but you may not remember?:slight_smile:

p.s your freind md is back too.hahahaha:D

5

read the rest of the post…

Well I’m back
dunna nunna nunna nanna nunna nunna nanna nunna
fix your bent antennae tune it in and then I’m gonna
enter in and up under your skin like a splinter

can y’all get past the elbow break and mebbe hesitate don’t focus on the hate relate to the enter wise up it ain’t always a center?

bubster, am i down wit dis, dawg?

lay 'em don, smack 'em, yack 'em, coooold gots ta be.

PS: ya diss this yam yeurng, ya be dissin all y’all’s teachers. this goes to YOU (rhyme wit you).

6

Sui…

SIGH

“i beg to differ of course about the arm break?have you not up the level yet mantis 108?”

I am pretty sure your level is beyond me. [see below]

“e.g fu-jow ;even with one arm,cut across centerline then you don’t need to punch for you have already"bui” to the throat[at 45% to the wind pipe] "

If you care to elaborate, may be I can see what exactly you are trying to come across. Which hand is doing what? 45%? power? Now that’s amazing for you have the ability to release exact percentage of power. BTW, you seemed to be very confident about your own speed and that your opponent is a standing dummy with human flesh (re: non resisting opponent) which of course are the best techniques found on video tape (re: Online courses).

I am also sure that one day the internet conversation will replace all McDojo and McKwoon masters’ teaching. So good luck in your online MA education.

Once again, I don’t think there are secrets just different details for my learning is from real Kung Fu folks who share their knowledge in person with me. My stuff is not your taste; that’s fine by me. You are the only who knows it all; that’s fine by me also. We all know that all you want is people to acknowledge you and your might wit. I hear you. You troll; therefore, you exist. So, troll on. :wink:

Mantis108

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Mantis 108

Have we got the same technique here from the form? I dont know if we are speaking about the same move. i have seen the arm break perfomed, but kinda hard to do when the elbow is facing down, so i dont use this technique for the arm break or (Kum La) TYPE. There for i use it to drain the energy of your opponent and hit the neck, using the yin and yang principles of striking using dim ma and dim yut knowledge, not the breaking yin and yang knowledge!

We all see techniques differently and at different levels of skill, i dont believe you are wrong just i wouldnt use your technique as i think it wasnt ment for what you have said. Please dont take this the wrong way!

take care
Garry

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45 degrees is what i intended,but couldn’t find the symbol:rolleyes:

i know my level is beyond yours and i will show like i’ve already prompted.

cut in on the left side,left hand bui,fu jow right attack wind pipe at 45 degrees.this is instead of the low level arm break where like f.t tells you that the opponants arms are facing downwards.

like i already stated low level especially from some one like you of all the learning you’ve had.lol

it is you who pretends to know all yet you print low level techniques,and if i’m a troll then why “still” waist your time in writing.just dissappear again.[northern forum]

any time you want to meet up let me know i would realy like to see your bullsh!t work on me.lol

p.s if you don’t know the openings on how to improve give us a holla,i could always teach you.lol

sui your freind mantis 108 legs.hahahahaha

9

Point taken

FT,

If I hear you correctly, you are saying that presumably your opponent has a “sunk” elbow [has elbow strength] with his punch. This is not unlikely for many of the southern close range styles. You perfer to address your concern with your theory is not wrong, it is just different. As I have stated there more than one way to deal with situations. I was addressing a incoming right punch attack and you suggested also a pushing/shoving situation. That’s fine. The same hand that I suggested can be a “Sok Sau” instead of a break if the opponent indeed has elbow strength. It can be ying (drains energy) as well as yang (breaking), paraphrasing what you were saying. BTW, I don’t doubt your skill since you have a clear profile. It is great that you share your opinion as honestly and openly as possible. :slight_smile:

Best regards

Sui,

It is clear to me that you have but one thing in mind. That is to let people believe that you in fact have skill and know what you are talking about. The fact that you have never been able to answer someone’s question directly and to the point shows that you basically build on others’ words and have little to no understanding of basic Kung Fu. I deliberately put in the following up moves to the technique that is at hand (the begger hand) to see if you have solid background in the style. If you have you would have addressed the begger hand like FT did. Instead you went on and on about what high level skill over me using exactly all the material and the supposed dynamics of the line of thinking that’s been said between me and FT. Your trick on talking stuff that seems to be high level (imaginary at best) would work on novice who long for it. All the good hands know Kung Fu is in the basic. You should have addressed the basic first if you were any good at all. So point, set and match over for you.

As for meeting me in person, those who have been on the KFO long enough and have been paying attention (thank you to those who support me) to what I have been doing know that I have a real visit from Tainan Mantis who is also a real practitioner on the KFO. We spent 11 days doing KF at my store. This is a KNOWN FACT and REAL EVENT. I have learned and benefited much from him. If there is real Kung Fu, I will learn as best I can. I have learned from my students as well (ie Ground grappling, knife skills, archery,etc…). So learning “in person” is not a problem for me as long as the real person has real skill to show me. Otherwise it is but a waste of my time. I have been trying to be patient with you, FRIEND. But you just don’t see that as saving face for you. I know it’s impossilbe for you to stick to sharing what you really know because you really have nothing to share but a few jokes. Anyway, you continue on with your imaginations.

Mantis108

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Hi Mantis

Indeed Sok Sau wuld work! Basics are drilled in class, but i work on lots of different senarios in theway people punch and see if the techniques would work.

Its hard to get a lock on when the opponent uses chum boy, chum jeurng and puts a whole new prespective on techniques. Im trying to do some mpegs for my site but they are too long and take up too much space, do you know how to capture and edit and format for the website?

Ill be having technique work shops ands other training material on my site as well. Then you guys can pick the living SH!T out of my skills…hehehehe but its all good.:slight_smile:

later FT

Sui,

I know you would love to see the FT in action.:wink: as in kung fu BABY!

:stuck_out_tongue:

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Thanks for the info guys… :slight_smile:

david

12

Melty…What if I…

Lay it down, bend it, smack it, flip it, rub it down…Ohh nooooo.:smiley:

Yeah, I’m a freaky d!cky. I’ve always wondered how hot candle wax feels in Florida? I mean its hot all year around. At least here in NY we have cold winters. Cold winters + Hot candle wax = :slight_smile: :eek: :cool: Ya know!

Melty, ya not doing to bad. Not bad at all.:slight_smile:

Buby

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I am obviously not as advanced as you folks. That hot wax move is one I have not learned yet.

14

Buby

Lay it down, bend it, smack it, flip it, rub it down…Ohh nooooo.

SHAKE IT UUUUUUUUUUUUUUPPPPP!!!

Do you listen to Ferrall in the morning on WNEW???

15

Buby :
“I’ve always wondered how hot candle wax feels in Florida?”

Depends on where. Or so I’ve heard. At band camp.

FT :
"Its hard to get a lock on when the opponent uses chum boy, chum jeurng and puts a whole new prespective on techniques. "

Duck and cover. Or one of the two. Or so I’ve heard. Also, band camp. Different band.

16

Melty

You may just duck right into my knee! ouch…:slight_smile:

If you slap it, flip it and rub it like that , yeah gotta be black! ICE CUBE:)

17

and now for another perspective…

Mantis, I like the elbow break, I can see how it could be integrated,
Sui, I like the bui and ying jau, I can see how it could be integrated,

We are however much more boring in our interpretation. Must be my low level…:frowning:

I have always seen it as an opening of the center gate of an opponent coming at you, followed by the side and front attacks, performed as a combination - open their guard, bik bu and drop into a side bui choi, bic bu into Sak Choi.

The lesson for me is in the stance and weight change, hips and shoulders, and the impact on the power.

If the opening were there it could be many things from the shoulders out, a push, a strike, a capture.

I believe lots of groups make the bui choi and the sak choi both in forward stance, whereas we do a front opening, side bui then forward to punch, pressing all the time with bik bu.

In gau bo twi, we do it both ways, in jik bu, side and front alternate.

PS - that Jackie Chan clip does look like the hand crossing over start, but then moves into just generic stuff for a couple of seconds.

18

well,well

mantis 108-still ignorant[2nd rate]

meltdawn-still a sheep

yum cha-needs a compass

sui-still laughing

:slight_smile:

19

HAHAHA!

Sui,

stop it! :smiley:

20

FT :
Read slower. “Or one of the two.”

Sui :
Baaaaaaaaaa. So, you like sheep do ya?