Do practitioners of both these disciplines exist here?
If so, could you please tell me what you think about the relative benefits they offer each other, or point me to somewhere that may explain this?
Thank you.
You might want to ask this in the Shaolin forum.
Oh, and do a search, it’s been a while, but it has been discussed.
Thank you 
Here is a link.
taoists can only count to three and then there is a gap of about 9,996 integers and then the last number and then nothing!
so, taoists don’t count, at least, not like everybody else does.
Actually;
One becomes 2. (yin, yang)
Two becomes 4. (shao yin, shao yang, tai ying, tai yang)
Four becomes 8. (Ba gua)
8x8= 64.
And then 99. 108 etc.
hmmm
i think i heard it in a different form.
some may be more familiar with this variant:
1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 3 and 3 becomes the 10,000 things.
with 10,000 being a relative number, but essentially describing the universe or cosmological structure of things.
1= You
2= you and another
3= the product of you and another
10,000 equals the result of the original intent of one.
Of course there are likely still more variants of this. Of course there are.
Well, 1 is the 10,000 things too. But there are more ideas between 3 and 10,000. For instance 0 (wuji – no extremity), 1 (taiji – extremity), 2 (liangyi – yin and yang), 4 (sixiang – yin/yin, yin/yang, yang/yin, yang/yang), 8 (bagua – sixiang + another yin or yang), 64 (bagua X bagua – as in the hexagrams of the I Ching)… I don’t know the derivations for eg. 108. Maybe SPJ will explain!
Well, if you can’t count passed 10,000, then you still aren’t counting like the rest of us. On the other hand, if you CAN count to 10,000 you have way to much time on your hands.
lmao… oy vey
The reality that can be an illusion isn’t the true reality.
Well…
Look’s like there is a little blending here and there but…
Kung Lek’s explanation would be closest to Daoist philosophy (ie Dao De Jing). But
1= You
2= you and another
3= the product of you and another
10,000 equals the result of the original intent of one.
This is somewhat blended with Buddhist view IMHO. Still very nice post. I agreed that there are more variants.
I Ching numerology is more less a model in an attempt to explore the reality that which we call the world. It is IMHO a function of Dao no more no less.
Just my 123
Mantis108
PS there are many traditions that has explanation of 108. So it really depends on your belief system.
Originally posted by Christopher M
Well, 1 is the 10,000 things too. But there are more ideas between 3 and 10,000. For instance 0 (wuji – no extremity), 1 (taiji – extremity), 2 (liangyi – yin and yang), 4 (sixiang – yin/yin, yin/yang, yang/yin, yang/yang), 8 (bagua – sixiang + another yin or yang), 64 (bagua X bagua – as in the hexagrams of the I Ching)… I don’t know the derivations for eg. 108. Maybe SPJ will explain!
I thought that:
Wu Ji is not nothing. Or no extreme, no polarity, no separation.
The number 0=no thing.
Therefore, Wu Ji doesn’t = 0.
Weird but Wu Ji can only be explained by a double negative in Western terms (because of the inherent philosophical bias in our language.)
Taiji=2…Taiji is something and nothing or (1 and 0) or yin and yang.
Everything springs from Taiji into the 10,000 things including the Ba Gua, 5 elements, etc.
I just started reading a book called Why God Won’t Go Away. So far they’ve layed out that the hypothesis that mystic experience stems from the part of the brain that orients us in the universe. This part of the brain “creates” and orients “self” and the reality that the self navigates through. When people are having a mystical experience it appears that this part of the brain functions differently and blurs the distinction, leading to a state of Wu Ji or non-separateness of the self from the rest of reality that the self resides in. Should make a good read.
Originally posted by Tigrentera
Therefore, Wu Ji doesn’t = 0.
It’s certainly a different concept than zero itself is. But the bagua are also a different concept than eight is – we’re just talking about the symbolic number system, in which wuji is zero, not suggesting these concepts are equivalent to the numbers.
Weird but Wu Ji can only be explained by a double negative in Western terms (because of the inherent philosophical bias in our language.)
What do you mean?
Taiji=2…Taiji is something and nothing or (1 and 0) or yin and yang.
No, Liang Yi is two: yin and yang. Taiji is not yin and yang, it is one thing: the polarization of wuji. Taiji is the mother of yin and yang as discrete entities. And yin and yang are not ‘something and nothing’, they are ‘receptive and active.’
Everything springs from Taiji into the 10,000 things including the Ba Gua, 5 elements, etc.
Everything springs from everything. But the Ba Gua are not one of the 10,000 things which spring from Taiji. The Ba Gua are the Si Xiang combined again with the movement of yin and yang, which is very different than the 10,000 things.
You can see a presentation of these concepts related to taijiquan here and baguazhang here.
So far they’ve layed out that the hypothesis that mystic experience stems from the part of the brain that orients us in the universe.
Yes, a section of the temporal lobe. This has been studied for a while now, in the laboratory provided by epileptics whose seizures are specific to this area. Recently, it’s been possible to do more controlled experiments as a result of the invention of a noninvasive brain-stimulation device; work pioneered by Persinger.
Originally posted by Christopher M
[B]It’s certainly a different concept than zero itself is. But the bagua are also a different concept than eight is – we’re just talking about the symbolic number system, in which wuji is zero, not suggesting these concepts are equivalent to the numbers.
I just don’t think that the number zero should be used because it has philosophical implications that come from a different culture. I could be incorrect here but I’m pretty sure that the Chinese did not invent zero. Zero implies nothing as in “the thing does not exist.” The Chinese didn’t see things as being so black and white.
What do you mean?
I mean a double negative because Wu Ji is not nothing and it is not something. It precedes something and nothing and separateness in general.
No, Liang Yi is two: yin and yang.
I haven’t heard this term before. What is its intended meaning.
Taiji is not yin and yang, it is one thing: the polarization of wuji. Taiji is the mother of yin and yang as discrete entities. And yin and yang are not ‘something and nothing’, they are ‘receptive and active.’
My understanding is that Taiji is the separation of Wu Ji into Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang symbolizes many things but what it really refers to in mystical terms is the division of the conciousness from the rest of reality. Whatever “reality” is.
Everything springs from everything. But the Ba Gua are not one of the 10,000 things which spring from Taiji. The Ba Gua are the Si Xiang combined again with the movement of yin and yang, which is very different than the 10,000 things.
My understanding is that the ba gua comes from the different combinations of yin and yang. The ****her you get from the mental side of things the more abstract it gets.
You can see a presentation of these concepts related to taijiquan here and baguazhang here.
Thanks for the table. But again, I don’t agree with the numbering system. The state of Wu Ji is without separation. Something that exists, also does not exist in this state. The term zero means, does not exist.
Wu Ji is not a void. Wu Ji is also not not a void.
How can that be?
Because as soon as we seek to name something as existing or not existing we miss what it truly is.
It makes not sense logically. But the point is that mystic experience defies logic.
Logic requires a subject and an object. In mystic experience that dviision is very blurry.
Not saying that I’m “right” per se just sharing with you how I see things.
Yes, a section of the temporal lobe. This has been studied for a while now, in the laboratory provided by epileptics whose seizures are specific to this area. Recently, it’s been possible to do more controlled experiments as a result of the invention of a noninvasive brain-stimulation device; work pioneered by Persinger. [/B]
Very interesting.
It might be easiest just to point to an introduction to daoist theory. This one is brief and covers most of what we’ve been talking about. The main thing it’s missing is the technical term ‘Liang Yi’ which you ask about, which the author refers to as “however, yang and yin separately are expressed as a broken line and a solid line respectively” at the top of the second page, where you can see that diagram adjacent to a taiji diagram to notice their differences.
Wuji is theorized to be the beginning state where everything arise or derive.
Such as the primordial soup or an embryo.
Taiji represents both yin and yang.
Taiji is the dynamic of both yin and yang.
When you give a factor (limit), there will be things inside the limit (yang) and things outside the limit (yin).
Yin and yang arise at the same time and are interdependent.
One gets stronger. The other gets weaker and vice versa.
When yin and yang are moving, they are separating and expanding. This is Taiji.
When both yin and yang stop to move or interact, they are shrinking or contracting and coming together (in union) as one which is Wuji.
Tai Ji Ze Wu Ji Er Sen. Yin Yang Zi Mu.
Dong Zi Ze Fun.
Jin Zi Ze He.
Yes, both 99 and 108 are mystical numbers.
99 is the best luck.
108 is 36+36+36.
If you have the top, the bottom, the left, the right, the front and the back (6 determinants/directional vectors) of movement of your left hand X 6 with your right hand, you have 36 moves.
Or 6 hand moves X 6 foot moves=36.
If you attack or defend high 36+ mid 36 +low 36, you have 108 possible moves.
These factors (hand, foot, or weapon etc) may vary, but you still have the 6 general directional vectors.
Some examples.
Shaolin 36 staffs, 108 wooden dummy Zhuang.
These numbers are also used in planning how to mount organized groups of people for attack or defense. It is called Bai Zhen (setting up matrix).
Ba Gua is equivalent to 8 directions or 4 fronts (Si Zhen) and 4 corners (Si Yu).
There are more.
Peace.
There are many legends.
There was a Daoist scholar.
He arranged the trails in the plum flower (Mei Hua) garden with a Ba Gua Zhen (matrix).
Unless you have a clue.
You will always end up where your start, no matter which direction you embark on.