Developing strikes

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;994442]control …contact is made with certain degrees of control, ultimately you cant hit a guys head unprotected and gloves throw timing off , We do a heavy bag routine with other drills , pads etc… We also use padded chest protectors for force of contact in chi-sao, bare handed. Wall bag training plays a large part too…I found that from ‘experience’ my punches easily ko’d guys …how about you ? experience without gloves really hitting people bare handed as vt should be …what where your results ? no video required , lets just hear what happened T …hmmmm:D
[/QUOTE]

So, in other words, he isn’t striking anyone on his videos. That is my point. So why pretend to strike-- why throw a punch and not connect? That’s poor training.

You don’t need to strike people in the head, you can hit their body. And you don’t need “chest protectors” for chi sao.

Yeah, I know – you are KOing everyone “on the streets”, you just can’t seem to do it in a gym. Sure. You certainly have a fertile imagination.

My experince? Simple – if you aren’t doing it in the gym, if you aren’t regularly and consistently doing it in training, then you won’t be able to do it. It’s that simple. If you aren’t already doing something then you won’t be able to do it.

Phillip has had many fights too…

Of course. That explains why he puts up all kinds of videos but none of sparring.

poor training ? tsk tsk , never hit anyone for real ? glove ? geared up ? no wonder you have trouble and resort to all that control bs… if youe ever in nyc I can show you in 5 minutes…

If you want to “show me”, then go spar with some muay thai or boxers and tape it and put it up. That will show me. But you won’t do that.

Imagine if boxers or muay thia fighters practiced and threw punches and kicks in their drills but didn’t really strike anything.

pivoting alone is not the idea ..you have to move the whole line your pivoting from , or create space for yourself when the opponent moves into it…what side and what angle is taken care of intuitively from all the training…you dont want to stand in front seeking to control or over use hands…angling , motion, as dummy…

attack hands … if you train to feel arms and control then its easy to mislead you…

Lovely theory.

[CFT]

Hit to body instead of head? Sounds like they compartmentalize their drills. Some to develop power, others to develop timing, etc. Would like to know how it is brought together. Maybe I missed something on the reading.

(I see T has beaten me to the post re: hitting the body)

[YungChun]

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;994456]Interesting dilemma. You can’t incorporate real striking into your training without gloves, you feel gloves throw timing off. How do you train strikes in a realistic manner, with realistic force, and an opponent trying to strike you back?

With most WCK schools, the answer is they don’t. And that introduces a lack of realism into training. And leads towards a “too deadly for the streets” mindset which is delusional.

Pro boxers train with larger gloves than anyone else, and they seem to not have a large problem with timing without gloves. Why do WCK practitioners?[/QUOTE]
I agree that much WCK training does not make enough contact…

ChiSao training (for example) should incorporate lots of contact (power release) as the student moves ahead in training. IME we used basically full power to the body, and hard contact to the head but not full contact to the head unless some kind of headgear/mouthpiece is used.

Hard contact striking, both giving and receiving when ready is key to good wck training. In the old days folks would often get knocked down, put into walls and even cut… All important for developing power and the ability to manage and deal with that power.

[k_gledhill]

the crux of your post is ‘prove it’ , I dont have to because I have experienced ko’ing myself, many times…and not for your viewing pleasure, or to see if you think it was good or not :D…you dont know what you are talking about…you think you do…making it funnier to read.

one day T you will find out if your lucky. Then you can make a valid critique.

as for boxers and gloves …they hurt their hands really easily without gloves …hitting hard skull can lead to broken hands…they train with gloves to avoid hurting their hands…the easiest thing to do to a bare knuckle boxer is head butt his fist ;)..old trick.

wrapping further protects unconditioned fists/wrist from spraining. hitting a heavy bag can easily injure your wrists if unaligned on contact.

gloves / timing affects OUR punch due to its distance restrictions …not withdrawing like boxer …If vt swung punches like boxers we could wear gloves too develop soft hands…If I strike you as you come to me or I to you the small inches of padding will change the required dynamics to hurt you…you may feel it just not what can be maxed with bare hands…

I have hit a lot of people in fighting using palms elbows, kicks…fists never hurt my hands …except learning ealry on sparring in the gym with …bare hands…then adopting open palms from experience of injuries hitting heads with knuckles…making me aware of targets as they come…head up or face down charges…what I hit you with will change as you get closer time slows down …good for me .

making a decision based on experience , whether to hit with palm or fist …also knowing the effects of the various strikes, they dont have the same effects…so you can use one over the other to get a result…from experience…

If i want to seriously damage you but not leave a mark for legal reasons…? or if there are witnesses to your ..er defensive situation ..one stike method is better than an other, one looks like your pushing someone away as you 'defend ’ yourself ;)…what the third person see’s can be very important to your freedom for the evening :D:D

[k_gledhill]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;994457]So, in other words, he isn’t striking anyone on his videos. That is my point. So why pretend to strike-- why throw a punch and not connect? That’s poor training.

You don’t need to strike people in the head, you can hit their body. And you don’t need “chest protectors” for chi sao.

Yeah, I know – you are KOing everyone “on the streets”, you just can’t seem to do it in a gym. Sure. You certainly have a fertile imagination.

My experince? Simple – if you aren’t doing it in the gym, if you aren’t regularly and consistently doing it in training, then you won’t be able to do it. It’s that simple. If you aren’t already doing something then you won’t be able to do it.

Of course. That explains why he puts up all kinds of videos but none of sparring.

If you want to “show me”, then go spar with some muay thai or boxers and tape it and put it up. That will show me. But you won’t do that.

Imagine if boxers or muay thia fighters practiced and threw punches and kicks in their drills but didn’t really strike anything.

Lovely theory.[/QUOTE]

just saying its lovely theory says it all…you really havent got a clue

we drill with heavy bags , pads etc…chest protectors , but NOT gloves..so watching thai do drills they dont stand and get hit with kicks in the head for each other do they ? no not until they spar…same with me..

Heavy bag routines too…or do they hit their thai partners in the thigh/shin repeatedly drilling..oh yeah shin pads too…

head gear and heavier padded gloves for ..er sparring when boxing…they work out with thier trainers hitting …er pads…

I can show simple routines for developing a punch like thai or boxers…do you really need to see me hitting you full force in the head to believe it will hurt you, if so then your the one we should video recieving it … for everyone to see if my punch works :D?

add wall bag training…

Then we can see the chi-sao is for developing alignment etc…timing while moving with a partner dealing with situations we may encounter as we fight..the fighting being the aim not the drill…iow we aim to spar like boxers, thai fighters…chi-sao isnt the way we spar , its a drill with redundant double arm extension used , for OUR drills…we also use it for distance training to stay with the opponent in a critical distance we function in ..impact angles are drilled, with motion…like hitting a heavy bag that moves randomly, with arms attached… impact distances are trained to strike as they come so the timing of our strike delivery works … th einch punch is a test of this distance , showing a good body alignment ..feet, knees, hips etc… this structure is critical to our force transfer …we do a lot of seung ma attacking entry, and toi ma , angling attacking offside to the given line of force ..ie left or right tan is role playing a guys arm extending at you…you then move as you counter strike…like working out with a boxing trainer doing timing drills with each other..not standing in one spot clinching and hitting with elbows out then back to clinching… remeber we adopt a lead and rear hand for a very important reason…NOT 2 extended as the drill chi-sao.

btw t I’m writing for those with open minds ; )

Maybe you have a theory it is for clinch control hitting ? wrong thinking. thats waiting to feel the guys arms so they tell you what to do…did that before …doesnt work. I have met others who think it is and proved them wrong too…didnt have to hurt them to prove it. I have good control when striking so I can do as much or as little as possible, from EXPERIENCE… becasue I trained with bare hands that feel what they do ..good or bad..iow mistakes like hitting a forehead a little to hard with knuckles..or timing is off, so I cant even touch with a completely extended arm. or too close even if I strike with heavy bare handed force the impact is lost for bad TIMING …

I have done and met a lot of lineages in Europe and USA ..met and done chi-sao with both YM sons, trained with the 'King of chi-sao " and was his senior instructor for over 20 yrs, did security work for 10 odd years fighting regularly sparring in class out side and having real fights, I also met YOUR instructor and did chi-sao with him …ask yourself why a guy with that experience would drop it instantly and follow a WSL instructor with little known ability living in Germany …? I have met others with 10 years under other ‘name’ sifu who dropped their ways too , like a sack of sh&t…

hmmm?

curious…?

I know from EXPERIENCE why your making the mistakes your making..without even seeing your video T …I bet you use you wrists against a tan strike in chi-sao …hmmmm mwahahah ! hah

too funny. if so you have wasted a lot of years training … never too late to jump out of the well..only you wont find many friendly crickets out there… they may eat you instead.

[k_gledhill]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;994457]So, in other words, he isn’t striking anyone on his videos. That is my point. So why pretend to strike-- why throw a punch and not connect? That’s poor training.

You don’t need to strike people in the head, you can hit their body. And you don’t need “chest protectors” for chi sao.

Yeah, I know – you are KOing everyone “on the streets”, you just can’t seem to do it in a gym. Sure. You certainly have a fertile imagination.

My experince? Simple – if you aren’t doing it in the gym, if you aren’t regularly and consistently doing it in training, then you won’t be able to do it. It’s that simple. If you aren’t already doing something then you won’t be able to do it.

Of course. That explains why he puts up all kinds of videos but none of sparring.

If you want to “show me”, then go spar with some muay thai or boxers and tape it and put it up. That will show me. But you won’t do that.

Imagine if boxers or muay thia fighters practiced and threw punches and kicks in their drills but didn’t really strike anything.

Lovely theory.[/QUOTE]

just saying its lovely theory says it all…you really havent got a clue

[wingchunIan]

boxing idolotry

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;994456]Interesting dilemma. You can’t incorporate real striking into your training without gloves, you feel gloves throw timing off. How do you train strikes in a realistic manner, with realistic force, and an opponent trying to strike you back?

With most WCK schools, the answer is they don’t. And that introduces a lack of realism into training. And leads towards a “too deadly for the streets” mindset which is delusional.

Pro boxers train with larger gloves than anyone else, and they seem to not have a large problem with timing without gloves. Why do WCK practitioners?[/QUOTE]

Why does everyone idolise pro boxers so much? I’ve done boxing (semi pro - not very good) and muay thai (instructor and fighter - bit better) and love both systems. I love watching both sports but this obsession with boxing punches is lame. I’ve lost count of the number of pro boxers who have broken their hand when they’ve hit someone in the street (including the legendary Iron Mike). Boxing is a science designed for application in a rule bound sporting contest, it has evolved beyond measure since the intro of the queensbury rules, gloves etc. There is a simple reason why boxers and thai boxers wrap their hands during training and fighting and its not just to look good.

[couch]

[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1079820]Why does everyone idolise pro boxers so much?
[/QUOTE]

Because boxing can’t be beat for shear application of punching…something that most Traditional Martial Arts lack. And because it works.

There is a simple reason why boxers and thai boxers wrap their hands during training and fighting and its not just to look good.

Because they are going 12 rounds. There’s a reason amateurs DON’T get their hands taped and just wear the cloth wraps: because they are only going 3x2min rounds.

[backyard1]

this has been covered before.. yes boxing will give you a basic ‘how to punch and put your body behind it’…wing chun will give you that and how to trap, kick, grab etc..thats why we study wc and not boxing. If you study MA a while its not the basic strikes that are important, everyone knows them. Its your particular style and how you deal with people such as boxers

[k_gledhill]

VT striking , kicking etc, allows us to ‘maintain’ attacking.