The Vertical Punch.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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What’re your thoughts on this punch and how it is applied in Wing Chun?

How powerful do you feel it is in comparison to a jab, cross, uppercut, etc.

And with proper training, do you believe it can be applied as powerfully as any of those punches?

I rarely ever see anyone practicing this punch on a heavy bag, and when they do it is usually very weak in comparison.

I personally feel with proper training, strength and structure, it can be empowered as much as you want it to be. What’re your thoughts on it?

2

have you read Dempsey’s book?

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I don’t want to write a book, but… I will say a few quick things. The punches have the same power as their boxing counterparts. The vertical fist has some unique properties. The vertical fist can be more bludgeoning as the bottom three knuckles don’t cut like the top two.

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[QUOTE=AdrianK;949680]What’re your thoughts on this punch and how it is applied in Wing Chun?

How powerful do you feel it is in comparison to a jab, cross, uppercut, etc.

And with proper training, do you believe it can be applied as powerfully as any of those punches?

I rarely ever see anyone practicing this punch on a heavy bag, and when they do it is usually very weak in comparison.

I personally feel with proper training, strength and structure, it can be empowered as much as you want it to be. What’re your thoughts on it?[/QUOTE]

the vertical punch can be as powerful–it is really dependent on how it is applied. used within a “chain punch” then each hit will not be as powerful as if it is applied with proper weight switching.

5

When you break them all down, you will see that there is a lot of wasted motion with hooks, crosses and such. Speed, and weight behind the blow is what makes it powerful. You can reach the same speeds in a short 1 foot punch as you can with a hook or cross or roundhouse. With these other strikes you do not have your full weight or root behind the blow. You just have the speed. This is not to say you can not get hammered by one of them. People get knocked out by them all the time. But in speaking of power generated by a punch, the vertical punch can be extremely powerful. You should be able to generate up to a thousand pounds of punch with lots of training and physical conditioning. The very nature of the punch makes it look weak on the heavy bag. There is little to no follow through, and the shock is quickly dispersed into the target on impact. The target might not even be propelled backward at all. Follow through is nothing more than shove added to the punch. And it usually occurs well after the shock is dispersed. Little or nothing is gained by it.
I didn’t know what chain punching was until I joined this forum. I thought it was silly when it was explained to me. You can throw several punches in combination, but just firing off a chain of punches does not really make sense. The very nature of WC fighting says you do not stand off and fire shots at an opponent anyway. Most would simply miss, and if you connect it would probably not be real effective. We like to get in and fire shots at targets that are well within the short range of the punch. A shot that hits on target will do far more damage to an opponent then a haphazard shot at them.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;949681]have you read Dempsey’s book?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. I lent my friend my copy about a year ago and he hasn’t given it back :mad:

This thread is less to gain knowledge on the subject for myself, I have my own experiences with it, its more to promote discussion of various viewpoints of instructors and students from around the world.

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alot of people put the chain punches down, and compare them to the power etc of boxer’s punches, thinking they know better. Most of these people really never learned properly, or understood the punch. A sledgehammer is not better than a ballpien hammer,a tack hammer, a framing hammer,etc. it’s different. It has different uses, which it is suited for.

8

I think the Wing Chun punch is a powerful punch BUT we don’t use it with the same tactics that a boxer uses their jabs, crosses, hooks, etc…

For instance, a jab is often times meant to be a weaker quicker strike to usually lead in something else…often times the jab functions as a “check” or to keep the opponent at a distance. When I spar with people, I sometimes stick out a jab even as a measuring tool of sorts to plant my cross. So its a set up technique…Wing Chun doesn’t use a punch as a set up per se. We don’t use it to keep our opponent at a distance either. We use it to fill in gaps…where those gaps lead (the sternum, the throat, etc…) is another thing. It could fill a gap as a defensive move to cut off a line and wedge in for a strike even…

The Wing Chun punch is just a different kind of power/energy altogether. The punch I would probably compare it to the most from boxing is the Cross. The cross seeks to have its whole body (including stance) behind it and its meant to be a powerful shot. The Wing Chun punch is supposed to have the whole body behind it and it supposed to be a powerful shot.

Those are just some of my thoughts,

Moses

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I think the Wing Chun punch is a powerful punch BUT we don’t use it with the same tactics that a boxer uses their jabs, crosses, hooks, etc…

So as a question to you, do you believe it can be used with similar tactics to jabs/crosses/hooks?

Do you believe there are benefits to employing not just those strategies? Application of the vertical punch in wing chun styles alone, varies far and wide. Let alone styles outside of WC. If so, why and also if not, why?

For instance, a jab is often times meant to be a weaker quicker strike to usually lead in something else…often times the jab functions as a “check” or to keep the opponent at a distance.

Well yeah, thats one application of the jab. Back to what TenTigers mentioned about reading dempseys book for instance, it is definitely not the only application of the jab. Boxers vary far and wide with how they utilize their lead hand.

10

If you concentrate on the ‘fists’ you will miss all thats going on behind them. There is a reason for the odd elbows in strikes.
The striking is two fold, iow the elbows and the wrists are held in certain alignment to allow a conceptual attacking idea to work.
Without the attacking idea we could just flail away with the same stuff everyone else does…
To be able to attack with abandon and spend little time thinking about your own defense the elbows are held inwards …like old time bare knuckle boxers. But the similarities end there.
The reasons for the arms being held in is to make the forearms hold acute angles PRIOR
to becoming a full strike whereby the elbows leave their positions to strike, recovering back for the next cycle etc…
The force we can generate is quite surprising, considering we cant chamber or recoil back like a big haymaker :D…reason, we are using our forearms as an alternating line of deflection force, ballistic force, generated by short controlled focused strikes to the target areas and back again. The force being generated in several ways. Primarily from structured delivery from the ground [ etc…] hips [ hips big part] to the movement of each fighter.
Like any fight some punching timing gives more power than others …we can use timing as well to gain force too.

With a combination of several actions …we can develop some decent stopping power :smiley:
I can attest to that from an ill spent youth …ok ill spent mid life…I have hit quite anumber of guys in my past [ I can hear terence warming up his fingers now :D] bar trash they may have been but they could take a punch :wink: like any good fighter…but the point being punch power of the vertical punch…

Its vertical because thats the position the fist takes when you squeeze your elbows inward. Its actually more like a upper cut combined with a cross…elbows low forearms curving in, trying to maintain the inward angles so they ‘cut’ any entry lines , one at a time as they swap out along a flanked arm/position etc…

Only a line of defense , not the be all end all of the striking system.

A basic training exercise in WSL VT is to face a heavy bag in a stance you choose, lead leg for a drill…then keeping your fists so they are like 2 uppercuts , keep your elbows in front of your stomach and alternate blows to the bag while keeping the arms the same positions back and forth 1-2-1-2-1-2 hitting with the elbows in in front of your stomach etc…you can generate force , but the key factor is to develop endurance for striking with elbows inwards …not to deliver body shots from a clinch face on…the strikes go in directly to the bags center not like an upper cut …just a drill for elbows while the strikes are in a tan /elbow position moving in and out repeatedly…
The record stands at 40 minutes Desmond Spencer ! 5 minutes and I am crying … the endurance for keeping the techniques working along with some stamina in general for fighting …and not collapsing under attacking pressure from a similar partners attempts to make your elbows go out and allow entry easily.
drill not a reality. [Sorry T]

In chi-sao we practice 'when the hand is free strike the partner with sufficient force from heckling to hurt them ’ :smiley: not just tag, but move me you big girls blouse, you call that a punch etc… the inch punch can prove the force or no force easily…

You can also show how to ‘rob’ the opponent of space to generate force by attacking them…an inch forwards will take quite a bit of force from a strike …we don’t block by allowing strikes to hit us in the head , just to show the bad timing on the partners part…ergo to slow, or the elbows came out as the punch landed allowing a counter punch to land as they hit you…they try to close the elbows down and forget to strike you with force etc…you can see the simple idea of the drills …not sticking …STRIKING and simultaneous deflecting in smooth single actions that don’t involve wrist actions , but inwardly held elbows…which lead to a

vertical fist.

many concentrate on the ‘fist’ missing all that heavenly gory, er glory I meant, not gory…:smiley: I love that movie !

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[QUOTE=AdrianK;949680]What’re your thoughts on this punch and how it is applied in Wing Chun?

How powerful do you feel it is in comparison to a jab, cross, uppercut, etc.

And with proper training, do you believe it can be applied as powerfully as any of those punches?

I rarely ever see anyone practicing this punch on a heavy bag, and when they do it is usually very weak in comparison.

I personally feel with proper training, strength and structure, it can be empowered as much as you want it to be. What’re your thoughts on it?[/QUOTE]

The important characteristic of the WCK punch is that the elbow is kept down (sunk). It should be called the elbow-down punch. :wink: When you keep your elbows down and in – as you NEED to do when on the inside and when attached to an opponent – your fist will align vertically naturally.

And, in my view, the objective of the WCK punch is not the same as boxing’s punches. Its objective is to break an opponent’s body structure (which is not boxing’s objective). The WCK punch is not for finishing.

12

So then what, in WCK, is for finishing? :smiley: Elbows are great, but require close range. Boxing has finishing ability on the outside, the mid-range, and the inside.

Do you believe there’s any value to adapting a longer-range vertical punch? Whether it be rotating your hips and shoulders with it, or going all-out jkd-style?

Again, just inciting discussion. Not really stating my own beliefs here.

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Drills get confusing , they can be misleading. Like chi-sao, much of it is redundant to fighting, like facing squarely doing rolling up and down with 2 extended arms…:wink:

dan chi sao starts us on a path of development and is also redundant …it teaches a 2 stage strike for each striking arm position, tan to strike…jum to strike…in fighting we don’t do either in a 1-2 beat any more , just like hitting the bag it develops a certain technical ability, that is guided by other ideas…

add 2 arms in random entry and countering aka chi-sao and we have yet another stage to free fighting , using certain arm techniques with tactical movements etc…

Doing a sticky anything is only for partners in a similar system…you dont give another guy the benfit of sticking to them…sticking only makes you equal…and thats not the idea of the training …

each arm ALONE is being trained to act as 2 per strike …if contact is made…

if the striking lead arm is stopped by some form of contact, then a lead/man & rear / vu attacking hand can follow up with plan ‘B’, by attacking with common attack/deflecting cycles…jut /strike rear hand…pak lead, strike rear…gaun low >strike high, etc…then back to 2 free hands striking with the added jum/tan training to allow them to strike and cover your attacking entry angles naturally as you face angle s and move to keep the distances and angles as chi-sao …not sticking rolling..chasing …like a wrestling match.

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[QUOTE=t_niehoff;949725]The WCK punch is not for finishing.[/QUOTE]

This, is very true. In my own words, it will not KO, or rather, it is not intended to be.
Unless the sucker punch is brought up.

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The body punches, not the fist. If a person can use their body properly for power, then vertical/horizontal fist doesn’t make any difference.

That said, there do seem to be tactical reasons for using a vertical fist in WC e.g. elbow-in position creates a sound structure and elbow can be used to make opponents attack deviate away from its intended path.

Suki

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The vertical VT punch is sharper than most with good wrist control and IME is a damaging finishing punch. TO say otherwise is limiting yourself and id say you havent trained it enough.

Ive dropped and drawn blood from sparring partners with 16oz gloves on using the punch although i would say personally its not my heaviest action.

And while there was an equal use of straight horizontal and vertical fists, Vetor belfort seemed to be able to finish wandy in rio heroes with them :o

Ive had good results from the vert punch and good palm strikes.

DREW

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Ive had some good results with it :smiley: and palm strikes…Ive broken some jaws , noses too… ALL depends on your timing and theirs..if you play 1st come 1st served , you can hit with head on timing = lots of pain to the recipient …A lot of times you can hit one guy and stop a potential fight with his 3-4 friends :smiley: they see the guy holding up a wall with his face or laying at your feet and suddenly get a hesitation to come too close to me …

If you hit a guy too quickly , which is a common mistake there is no force…I learned this in the doorway of a nightclub one evening , i was hitting a deserving patron repeatedly in the face, fast while trapping him against a wall by the exit…he just looked at me so I sloooowed down and put more distance and body behind it, it worked …you can also wait and bide your time and you can catch guys coming after you ..I would draw guys into stepping to me by slightly going back …as they entered I would hold firm and tag them…depending where they were [heads] available targets I would hit a low head charge with a palm strike inducing some considerable pain to the unfortunate guy, who would be holding his head while moving away from me :smiley:

If I hit a guy as he encroached the ‘hard hat area’ unwisely I could turn face strike and get head on all at once …KO or at least , no more trying to ruin my evening at work.:rolleyes:

Other times guys need hitting more than once …a good elbow …they recover and come back for more…a good low kick…then a head shot …with my foot this time KO…

other times Ive hit guys and they stood after , but you could see they didnt want to come close again …

A good drill to develop a good flanking off body twisting facing strike is to swing a heavy bag laterally in front of you, as it reaches the apex of each swing you stop it momentarily from returning to the other side with a strike , using full torque and hips etc…
I used this in many fights…my movements in fighting where to achieve the positions to throw this strike…blind siding /flanking became the norm..facing 3-4 guys only means which one steps closest to you first and gets ‘it’.

never failed me in 25 years of …delivering the good news …

A good punch and timing …

18

Boxers used to use the vertical fist when fighting bare knuckle. They also continued to use vertical fists when the gloves were really thin. When gloves got more padding people started using the horizontal fist. Obviously the vertical fist was better when there was little or no padding.

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Unless you’re Mas Oyama! :eek: :cool:

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;949738]Boxers used to use the vertical fist when fighting bare knuckle. They also continued to use vertical fists when the gloves were really thin. When gloves got more padding people started using the horizontal fist. Obviously the vertical fist was better when there was little or no padding.[/QUOTE]

Now is there a scientific explanation for that? :smiley:

The horizontal fist does tend to get by someones guard easier than a vertical fist, when wearing gloves. But is that the only reason? Or are you saying there is a power difference, that the vertical punch is more powerful than horizontal without padding, but less powerful than the horizontal with?