here’s an idea for those people, get off your arse and do the work. Any one that doesn’t do sad work, heavy bag, any cardio, or vt bag should see that they are not doing anything. Minimum hundreds of punches needed. All environments needed. We are not all as lazy as what you discribe. Barry used to say its not the style its who worked the hardest.
[QUOTE=YungChun;993805]
Actually really fast hands (speed) does come from the body.. If you only use localized muscle you will never get as much speed or power as when you are grounded and the body is powering the arms.. (sequential summation of motion) The fastest attacks with arms are powered by the body.. Of course it depends on what kinds of movements…
What you really mean here is that the arms must be synced with the body as a single unit in motion, action. So then no, the ultra high speed CPs we often see are not synced, not connected and will have very little power.
[/QUOTE]
“Fast hands” in WCK means no power. Period. And they are an indicator of poor WCK. When power comes from our body movement, the speed at which you can use that power is the speed of that body movement – if your hands move any faster than that, you are no longer using the body.
And I don’t mean that the arms are “synched with the body as a single unit of movement” – I meant precisely what I said: The arms are extensions of the body. When I hit, I hit WITH my body – it’s just that my arm is between you and my body. It is like the hammer driving a nail.
EDIT:
BTW T a good example of why and what folks need to be shown.. Many don’t get this point… and need to be shown…shown…!!! So there goes your ‘your teacher can’t show you…’ Students do need to be shown many a thing…
Skills can only be learned in two ways --you are either shown a skill by someone who has that skill or you work it out for yourself. The former makes that task of learning much more efficient.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;993814]
In contrast to this, the typical training regimen of a WCK practitioner mostly looks as follows:
- Running from the parking lot to the kwoon 3x per week - @600ft.
- Jump rope jump what?
- Bag work we use the dummy for that, so did the dummy sets 3x @ 7 min.
- Pad work we dont need to chase hands with pad work we do compliant chi sau with air punches. 30 min.
- Sparring on Saturdays attendance optional and low. 1.5 hours.
- Forums 3 hrs / week.
So the fact that most WCK practitioners hands dont contain the skill of an average boxer is not difficult to spot why.
[/QUOTE]
Just as a note, not all WCK is trained as listed above. And, WCK also trains some different skills that boxing does, so the methods may differ, along with times focused.
Not sure if #6 was a typo and you meant forms, but forums 3 hrs/week isn’t a far stretch either! T has to be putting in 3 times that, so he must be good!! 
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;993489]The power of the punch – like everything else – comes from your body, not your elbow or wrist.[/QUOTE]
you missed the point of post…the elbows are the focus for a reason, throughout the system. For force we have a focus on other things . Timing for one …
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;993824]
And I don’t mean that the arms are "synched with the body
[/quote]
No of course not..
You mean..
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;993824]
if your hands move any faster than that, you are no longer using the body.
[/quote]
Right totally different.. The great battle of verbiage.
You are totally wrapped up in world of fixed ideas based on the words you choose and locked into your own verbiage bubble..
Real speed and power come from the body.. (Sequential Summation of Motion) Your term “fast hands” is just that, your term, referring to particular use of the hands without body connection.. BFD.
A WCK punch done with the body, fired from the body will be faster if done right than one only done with the arm.. The time between the actions CPs will increase (no egg beater) because of body connection, but real useful speed and power comes from the body, essentially hitting from the feet up…
you dont use your body when you punch other then for bracing or timing movement with the punch. The speed is dependant on if i want to time of movement with my body movement (slower, but more power) or if i just punch. The body cant note as east as the arm so if i time it the punch is slower. The body is only an brace until i connect then the body is use to transfer force. When i was teaching i used to it people to again punch as hard as they can, then as fast as they can. The hard is slower and the fast are taps. I is learning to be as fast but also hard. This is were power comes in. The more speed the less strength you can use so power is low. Finding the medium is were the most power comes from. If you are fast work on hard. If you punch hard work on speed. Can depend on size etc. As example. My teacher had a friend that did the jim fung/ tst lineage. Which is really soft in its approach. But because he was so big, Strong and amazingly quick that once he learnt to relax he had the best punch as he had the strength to back up the speed..
[QUOTE=bennyvt;994135]you dont use your body when you punch other then for bracing or timing movement with the punch. The speed is dependant on if i want to time of movement with my body movement (slower, but more power) or if i just punch. The body cant note as east as the arm so if i time it the punch is slower. The body is only an brace until i connect then the body is use to transfer force. When i was teaching i used to it people to again punch as hard as they can, then as fast as they can. The hard is slower and the fast are taps. I is learning to be as fast but also hard. This is were power comes in. The more speed the less strength you can use so power is low. Finding the medium is were the most power comes from. If you are fast work on hard. If you punch hard work on speed. Can depend on size etc. As example. My teacher had a friend that did the jim fung/ tst lineage. Which is really soft in its approach. But because he was so big, Strong and amazingly quick that once he learnt to relax he had the best punch as he had the strength to back up the speed..[/QUOTE]
Hard to tell exactly what you mean.. However I would have to disagree that you can’t use the body to make striking faster and more powerful.. In fact for real power the body is really doing the strike, more so than the arm.
An example is swinging a baseball bat or throwing a ball… If you use only your arms the swing/ball will be slower and less powerful.. Power and speed are related…
WCK striking with power, as I term it, is dependent on body alignment (connected mass) and syncing the opening of the joints… Bones align and the joints open as the strike is fired.. A pulse of power starts from the legs and goes upward through the spine to the arm and finally the hand or fist..etc..
Again Sequential Summation of Motion.. (see below) When you see folks doing the ultra fast (rapid succession) chain punching there is no real body involvement/connection..
The speed and velocity of a baseball when it is thrown receives its motion and momentum from the person throwing the ball. For great velocity it is necessary for the thrower to have momentum and transfer it to the ball. This transfer of momentum follows the principle of sequential summation of movement. This states that the largest body masses move first, followed progressively by smaller body masses (Barker). In baseball, the thrower of the ball represents this principle. The pitcher starts with his legs, then hips, shoulders, arm, wrist, and fingers. As each part reaches its full potential it is transfers along the line ultimately to the ball giving it momentum and velocity. This along with the rotating motion of the pitcher around his leg and the extension down the pitching mound creates maximum momentum and velocity (Barker).
both T and Kev are correct according to what i learn.
there are others too.
T saying that there is no elbow power in wck is laughable, but each to their own. but it does bring me to another subject i wanted to ask T (see below) *
power can also come from the relaxed arm too - we are taught this; the easiest way to describe it is in the same way as Val Riazanov’s ballistic striking youtube clips.
you can of course use your body to strike, but what about turning punches etc. where you DONT use your body to strike, but the hip/sinking?
in the WSL system we very rarely block, we attack. therefore speed and angles when striking (ie arm only) are often more appropriate, even counting for the slight loss in power.
also all this sparring you do T, and still not KO’d anyone? you ought to give it up…
*T: if you were to teach wck to someone, would you teach the system as you learnt it or the things that you find appropriate?
[QUOTE=LSWCTN1;994139]
T saying that there is no elbow power in wck is laughable
[/quote]
Elbow power has more to do with taking position and displacement. Of course it also is part of the alignment of the whole body, second to last joint to open, the last being the supination (up tilt) of the wrist in the punch.
[QUOTE=LSWCTN1;994139]You can of course use your body to strike, but what about turning punches etc. where you DONT use your body to strike, but the hip/sinking?
[/quote]
What are you turning? The body, the core.. A pitcher also ‘turns’..
And then there is the coiling…
unless you lean, turn, or step the body does nothing in the punch except act as an anchor. The theory you keep on saying only comes into play from the shoulder girdle when a punch is made. All other muscles in the body are resisting the bodies tendency to turn with the strike. Yes the movement should start with the large muscle groups, pec, lat etc. Then onto the rotor cuff muscle them triceps them forearm. No pulse runs from your foot to your arm. Your nervous system uses the spinal core and transmitts to yous arm and shoulder. When i have conected with the punch and recieve feedback or force from the target then i transfer it to my stance so i dont go back.
[QUOTE=LSWCTN1;994139]both T and Kev are correct according to what i learn.
there are others too.
T saying that there is no elbow power in wck is laughable, but each to their own. but it does bring me to another subject i wanted to ask T (see below) *
[/QUOTE]
You guys and your terms. By “elbow power” do you mean jang dae ik, elbow down power?
power can also come from the relaxed arm too - we are taught this; the easiest way to describe it is in the same way as Val Riazanov’s ballistic striking youtube clips.
That stuff is utter nonsense. Let’s see him do it in fighting and not to a bunch of pencil-necked scrubs in a demo.
you can of course use your body to strike, but what about turning punches etc. where you DONT use your body to strike, but the hip/sinking?
I use my body to strike whether stationary, stepping, turning, whatever. If you don’t hit with your body, your strike has no power.
in the WSL system we very rarely block, we attack. therefore speed and angles when striking (ie arm only) are often more appropriate, even counting for the slight loss in power.
This is nonsense, pure theoretical dribble. Do you guys ever stop to consider what you opponent will be doing?
also all this sparring you do T, and still not KO’d anyone? you ought to give it up…
NONE OF YOU are KOing anyone. NONE. That’s all fantasy of what you believe you will do should you ever fight. Well, it’s not going to happen. If you aren’t already doing it in your training, you aren’t going to do it.
*T: if you were to teach wck to someone, would you teach the system as you learnt it or the things that you find appropriate?
I wouldn’t teach “the system” since there is no system.
But, it depends on what the person who I would be teaching wanted. If they wanted the classical curriculum, I would teach them that. WCK, however, isn’t the curriculum. It is an approach to fighting.
[QUOTE=–;993789]Actually both gledhill and terence are correct, gledhill emphasizes on (Cyclic punches etc), whereas terence emphasizes on (Strength comes from the body)
One very good way of developing the strikes is to hit on the wall bag, firm and slow with
each strike, (not the Yip Man movie ones).[/QUOTE]
cycling punches with deflective energy…
not that t is wrong , just that the point of my post was missed by him…I did not write about power because thats another part of development.
When you show a beginner the basic striking idea from SLT , the force is something to develop as well alongside the elbow training of SLT iow learning the angles of the arms for simultaneous striking comes first… Then the introduction of body unity from facing , hips, knee bone connected to the thigh bone , er yeah ! and so on…very important part of the systematic progression to a ko strikes [ t hasnt learned that part yet 
] .
For power timing is paramount, you can have a heavy punch but cr&p timing, so we move on to chi-sao drills after the dan chi becomes redundant with 2 stage punch drills.
In chi-sao we move a few inches closer than dan chi positions, so we can make contact with the partners torso/head. We dont do 2 stage strikes with elbow in [jum] first , then strike or elbow out [tan] etc…we simply strike with one action , aiming to impact the partner at the same time as the elbows are working the counter measures. Offering openings and feints to rid the student of clinging controlling arms , further developing the alignment ideas of Dan chi sao…using each others opposite arm/elbow deflection energy to have an equilibrium on the line …any wrist deflections or use off the line of striking is immediately addressed to isolate and correct as it appears…
When fighting from no pre-contact you dont want the arms to focus on making redundant arm contact or using both arms extended as we attack one isolated arm prematurely, simply strike/attack …
IF contact is made as you strike [attacking] you wont be unaligned using wrong energy as you aim your line at them as you angle /maneuver …due to the instant feeling of incorrect energy being placed on your lead [man sao] you can send the rear hand into the space it has created, by its unaligned movement…
Because your partners have been so aligned it develops this idea… iow your fine tuned to sense mistaken energy delivery out at the opponent wrists or openings in their defense that you just hit into because your hand is trained to go forwards with gaps ..not chase, over control…when he hands are free hit…
If the opponent is making motions of defense with arms/body you capitalize on this…fighting with an opportunistic idea…in the moment taking advantage of mistakes made under pressure of attack…
If you make the mistake of trying to attack the arms first you are becoming what you have trained to rid yourself of…you are doing what you want the opponent to do …seek your lead arm or open themselves up from its attacking nature
you are mastering the art of attack …
thats why you will see P Bayer just doing a lot of angling & striking , to the untrained [terence] it looks like a lot of ‘arms’ alone but you wont FEEL whats going on , the body unity is there …due to the angles of the arms you CANT use force on the lead strike as they cycle because the rear hand is always shooting a new line at you , regardless of what you do to the lead…you make a mistake and POW! [like batman] its over…the chi-sao makes us develop no mistakes back at EACH OTHER for drilling…but meet someone without this and as you attack they make defensive actions…unless they train to strike and attack together you can put them under pressure …make them make a mistake without looking for it …they can overturn, over swing…whatever ..mistakes.
Over turning is something we learn to correct doing Chum Kil…we ONLY TURN TO FACE OUR ATTACK LINE..not to deflect energy in a drill…the turningof energy comes from redundant ideas of controlling sticky development without alignment ideas …you stick with wrists because nobody told you anything else…so you follow arms , cling to them, control first..etc…WHILE the other guys wailing on you relentlessly strike after strike with simultaneous deflections built in if your strike or attempt to defend /control makes contact…THEN we use partnership counter measures with cycling attack defense in opposite arms…aiming to get back to hitting with free hands…
ending the fight asap…
WSL used to have a blackboard with everyones mistakes on it …you could reference everyones errors to correct…bad wu, bad bong..etc…
Some simple drills are introduced to show the ability of cycling strikes to work inside or outside incoming lines of force , all the time simply striking with chain punches, facing only for symmetry.
angling and facing with movement later in seung ma toi ma drills…
more later… but at the next stage we do lok sao …dual facing equal reaching strikes.
sparring doesnt start from a ygkym stance …like fighters in a ring moving for positions, using movement to feint , draw, etc… you should be like water flowing to water coming at you…the percentages of being the attacker AND staying to the sides of attacks will help you stay dry…WSL said this…if you stand n front blocking as most do you will get a drop of water on you sooner rather than later…% are in our favor if we adopt tactical angling with simple attacking concepts, backed by techniques developed to allow us to pursue the concept of attacking as the defense.
This is why WSL would ask student to attack him, simply to see how good is your attack ..if he could just take a few steps sideways , randomly shift as a bull fighter, could you maintain the attack without presenting a counter attack ? hmmm
Great Bullfighters are measured not by how much they do as the bull charges but how little..the horns of a 1 ton animal inches from them , all they did was move their feet a litle as the charge came…hidden beneath the cloak [bulls are color blind] a sword…you can paly with it or kill it immediately…depends on the crowd ; )
[QUOTE=k gledhill;994158]cycling punches with deflective energy…
not that t is wrong , just that the point of my post was missed by him…I did not write about power because thats another part of development.
[/QUOTE]
This underscores the problem – it’s not a matter or learning to punch (arm) then working on power (body).
Let me use “pulling” as an example. In WCK you pull with your body not your arm. Your arm is just an attachment to your opponent that permits you to pull with your body. If you pull with your arm, you only can use localized muscle and that won’t be able to pull strongly. If you pull with your whole body, you can pull someone, even if they resist, easily. The whole point to learning to pull is to learn to use the whole body to pull – it’s not a matter of learning the arm action then adding power as “another part of development”. It’s one process, one action. And it is a body action, not a arm action.
Moreoever, you can only develop the mechanics of pulling BY pulling, by practicing pulling with your entire body – from the get-go.
It’s the same with striking – it is a body action not an arm action. The arm is involved, just like it is in pulling, because the arm is part of the entire body. Just like you practice pulling with your body from day 1 to learn and develop the skill of pulling with your body, you learn and practice the skill of hitting with your body from day 1.
In chi-sao we move a few inches closer than dan chi positions, so we can make contact with the partners torso/head. We dont do 2 stage strikes with elbow in [jum] first , then strike or elbow out [tan] etc…we simply strike with one action , aiming to impact the partner at the same time as the elbows are working the counter measures. Offering openings and feints to rid the student of clinging controlling arms , further developing the alignment ideas of Dan chi sao…using each others opposite arm/elbow deflection energy to have an equilibrium on the line …any wrist deflections or use off the line of striking is immediately addressed to isolate and correct as it appears…
IF contact is made as you strike [attacking] you wont be unaligned using wrong energy as you aim your line at them as you angle /maneuver …due to the instant feeling of incorrect energy being placed on your lead [man sao] you can send the rear hand into the space it has created, by its unaligned movement…
Because your partners have been so aligned it develops this idea… iow your fine tuned to sense mistaken energy delivery out at the opponent wrists or openings in their defense that you just hit into because your hand is trained to go forwards with gaps ..not chase, over control…when he hands are free hit…
If the opponent is making motions of defense with arms/body you capitalize on this…fighting with an opportunistic idea…in the moment taking advantage of mistakes made under pressure of attack…
If you make the mistake of trying to attack the arms first you are becoming what you have trained to rid yourself of…you are doing what you want the opponent to do …seek your lead arm or open themselves up from its attacking nature
you are mastering the art of attack …
thats why you will see P Bayer just doing a lot of angling & striking , to the untrained [terence] it looks like a lot of ‘arms’ alone but you wont FEEL whats going on , the body unity is there …due to the angles of the arms you CANT use force on the lead strike as they cycle because the rear hand is always shooting a new line at you , regardless of what you do to the lead…you make a mistake and POW! [like batman] its over…the chi-sao makes us develop no mistakes back at EACH OTHER for drilling…but meet someone without this and as you attack they make defensive actions…unless they train to strike and attack together you can put them under pressure …make them make a mistake without looking for it …they can overturn, over swing…whatever ..mistakes.
Perhaps you can direct me to a video showing Bayer actually using striking?
Here is Phillip Bayer doing chi sao: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLWWfZvaO4U
He is not STRIKING in his chi sao.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;994155]unless you lean, turn, or step the body does nothing in the punch except act as an anchor.
[/QUOTE]
Not correct. Look at the second form… Look up sequential summation of force. The legs start.. WCK aligns the bones, opens the joints.. This is basic stuff.. No need to step, it’s the slight transfer of weight (legs) that starts it, as when you swing a bat.. basic stuff.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;994172]This underscores the problem – it’s not a matter or learning to punch (arm) then working on power (body).
Let me use “pulling” as an example. In WCK you pull with your body not your arm. Your arm is just an attachment to your opponent that permits you to pull with your body. If you pull with your arm, you only can use localized muscle and that won’t be able to pull strongly. If you pull with your whole body, you can pull someone, even if they resist, easily. The whole point to learning to pull is to learn to use the whole body to pull – it’s not a matter of learning the arm action then adding power as “another part of development”. It’s one process, one action. And it is a body action, not a arm action.
Moreoever, you can only develop the mechanics of pulling BY pulling, by practicing pulling with your entire body – from the get-go.
It’s the same with striking – it is a body action not an arm action. The arm is involved, just like it is in pulling, because the arm is part of the entire body. Just like you practice pulling with your body from day 1 to learn and develop the skill of pulling with your body, you learn and practice the skill of hitting with your body from day 1.
Perhaps you can direct me to a video showing Bayer actually using striking?
Here is Phillip Bayer doing chi sao: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLWWfZvaO4U
He is not STRIKING in his chi sao.[/QUOTE]
T your trying to be something of an officionado of what vt is…your not so me trying to make it worthy of you is low on my list of things to do…who cares what you think .
I dont sorry.
how about a video of you showing us how it should be done …hmmmm
btw if you cant see P Bayer issuing controlled strikes then your in for a shocking surprise son…
few have mastered the fixed elbow principle, less who even know what it is…lost in feelin g controlling sticky quagmire of redundancy…
with the pivot you use distance to create more momentum. Punch is using power. Not the swing. And when we pivot the muscles of the thigh and butt start the movement like when we run. The glut activates then the hamstring etc. You seen to be using terms you post of understand. But one thing isn’t it amazing that the elbow force people talk about is just learning that the movement should be started by the major muscles. Basic biomechanics.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;994373]T your trying to be something of an officionado of what vt is…your not so me trying to make it worthy of you is low on my list of things to do…who cares what you think .
I dont sorry.
how about a video of you showing us how it should be done …hmmmm
btw if you cant see P Bayer issuing controlled strikes then your in for a shocking surprise son…
few have mastered the fixed elbow principle, less who even know what it is…lost in feelin g controlling sticky quagmire of redundancy…[/QUOTE]
“Strikes” means actually hitting someone. Get it? Really striking them. Where is Bayer actually hitting someone? And with power? He’s not. Throwing a punch and not hitting someone isn’t striking in my book – it’s a sign of poor training.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;994423]with the pivot you use distance to create more momentum. Punch is using power. Not the swing. And when we pivot the muscles of the thigh and butt start the movement like when we run. The glut activates then the hamstring etc. You seen to be using terms you post of understand. But one thing isn’t it amazing that the elbow force people talk about is just learning that the movement should be started by the major muscles. Basic biomechanics.[/QUOTE]
As I see it, the WCK punch isn’t based on momentum (like boxing) and striking power does not come from rotation.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;994438]“Strikes” means actually hitting someone. Get it? Really striking them. Where is Bayer actually hitting someone? And with power? He’s not. Throwing a punch and not hitting someone isn’t striking in my book – it’s a sign of poor training.[/QUOTE]
control …contact is made with certain degrees of control, ultimately you cant hit a guys head unprotected and gloves throw timing off , We do a heavy bag routine with other drills , pads etc… We also use padded chest protectors for force of contact in chi-sao, bare handed. Wall bag training plays a large part too…I found that from ‘experience’ my punches easily ko’d guys …how about you ? experience without gloves really hitting people bare handed as vt should be …what where your results ? no video required , lets just hear what happened T …hmmmm:D
Phillip has had many fights too…
poor training ? tsk tsk , never hit anyone for real ? glove ? geared up ? no wonder you have trouble and resort to all that control bs… if youe ever in nyc I can show you in 5 minutes…
pivoting alone is not the idea ..you have to move the whole line your pivoting from , or create space for yourself when the opponent moves into it…what side and what angle is taken care of intuitively from all the training…you dont want to stand in front seeking to control or over use hands…angling , motion, as dummy…
attack hands … if you train to feel arms and control then its easy to mislead you…
[QUOTE=k gledhill;994442]control …contact is made with certain degrees of control, ultimately you cant hit a guys head unprotected and gloves throw timing off , We do a heavy bag routine with other drills , pads etc… We also use padded chest protectors for force of contact in chi-sao, bare handed. Wall bag training plays a large part too…I found that from ‘experience’ my punches easily ko’d guys …how about you ? experience without gloves really hitting people bare handed as vt should be …what where your results ? no video required , lets just hear what happened T …hmmmm:D
[/QUOTE]
Interesting dilemma. You can’t incorporate real striking into your training without gloves, you feel gloves throw timing off. How do you train strikes in a realistic manner, with realistic force, and an opponent trying to strike you back?
With most WCK schools, the answer is they don’t. And that introduces a lack of realism into training. And leads towards a “too deadly for the streets” mindset which is delusional.
Pro boxers train with larger gloves than anyone else, and they seem to not have a large problem with timing without gloves. Why do WCK practitioners?