Developing strikes

[k_gledhill]

There are certain drills we use to focus the students on their elbows and not wrists

keep the idea of having every action an attacking action, and that we don’t fight like chi-sao with 2 hands equally extended…one leads one follows…cycles of attacking actions..strikes with dual simultaneous ability to block/strike as they move back and forth cycling along the centerlines, as you angle and shift flowing with the opponent …

developing striking actions without body angling/ movement , then lok sao 2 arms in unison , no body movement …that comes later in chi-sao seung ma toi ma attacking facing drills & bong /jut drills…

Dan chi-sao , the tan elbow spreads off the line as it hits ‘versus’ the jum sao elbow stays in as it hits, but done in 2 stages to develop preliminary positions to strike from later in 1 flowing strike.
Mistakes to avoid, using the wrists to move downwards , sideways, or trying to stick with the movements using wrists, etc…iow isolate the arms to point along your own centerlines while using the elbows movements to cover entry to or displace from your centerlines…

By facing squarely we use each others ‘facing’ to make each other square on, just for the drills and alignment purposes…this makes each arm able to reach the target as we are at angles …as dummy side facing using tan & jum …either strike/energy will reach as we face from angles, trying to isolate one 1/2 of the opponent by turning or using their natural turning actions…

We also add the bong sao action for recovering the bridged arm…iow whenever an arm covers [not touches] entry to the target, we use it to displace the arm with sharp left or right energy to our lines , opening up the path for the rear hand , wu sao… then drop the bong elbow as recovery to strike again with elbow in …same idea as SLT.
Once the partner strikes over the bong sao, he practices withdrawing his arm back to neutral fok sao …as a strike that recoils back to strike , the elbow remains relaxed but central , neutral. iow we train to recover the arm after its lifted , as this happens the partner doing bong sao remains in bong , NOT rolling and following the fok sao, this will develop a rolling sticking idea…bad:D

so the dan chi sao is in cycles of strike versus strike tan v jum and recovery of the tans extended strike as the jum remains aimed and in contraction, this stops the drill from making you roll and stick with the tan as it goes back to prepare for bong sao.

so you can see that there are parts of the drill aimed at STOPPING the student from feeling to follow etc…instead we aim strike recover elbows then start another section.

Seen from outside it LOOKS like sticking flowing rolling but then the ideas arent being shared to understand the stop and start sections… the energy developed will later be combined into single striking actions using the 2 stages in 1 striking flowing action…

Some simple ways to show this 2 stage development is to have a student hold their arm off to the side outside their shoulders and the as the coach strikes to their centers [ for drilling purposes] they bring their elbows inwards and attempt to intercept the line of the strike, using the elbow to the centerline , not the wrists.
If the wrists are being used, we can feint the strike to show the wrist traveling past the centerline…another method of showing this idea is to have them slap their own hand off the line …using the elbow as the focus like all the drills…

moving to double hands rolling and then striking tan v jum without doing the 2 stage stop and hit actions…strike versus strikes tan v jum strikes , each trying to displace the other …in one beat, stalemating to develop the strikes along the line …opening up arms to develop striking into gaps of available space, not sticking etc…

the by-product of alignment training gives the students the feel for incorrect alignment , relative to their own striking lines …any use of wrists that deviates from the centerlines can be felt instantly, …maintaining the idea that we dont use 2 arms extended , will show that any deviation felt from the lead arm will be taken advantage of by the following rear hands…if the hands are free , iow nothing in the way they simply hit…

sticking and rolling is a common mistake , it wont develop striking ability required to make the strikes function alone, iow you wont have to use 2 hands to fight one isolated arm always..over trapping or over sticking to control ,compensating for lack of proper alignment drills early on in ones training…

The SLT starts with two hands striking equally along the centerline x at the wrists outwards then back to X wu sao’s …we strike equally facing from each arm…then develop the starting points from which to strike from…tan elbow in , jum elbow in…huen & wu as it travels back to recover the xing strike line, making a natural intercepting angle as it starts to move forwards again along the line…each arm equall…Chum Kil will give us the angles and movement to work the SLT…a fighting bubble SLT and CK …BG gives recovery to losing the bubble idea…

[uki]

i hear iron ball juggling is an excellent training method for developing strikes.

[k_gledhill]

[QUOTE=uki;993360]i hear iron ball juggling is an excellent training method for developing strikes. :)[/QUOTE]

iron ball juggling eh …tried it got good at juggling iron balls , strike no improve

[sihing]

Good post Kev, and a good representation of the types of threads that should be more prevelent on this forum, you’ve explained your method and reasons why you do things the way you do, with logical thinking to back it up. Now, does it work? That cannot be answered in anyway by anyone outside of yourself. No one here can say to me that it does or doesn’t work as you are not me and I am not you. It’s an individual thing, and most do not understand it nor are willing to go thru it to develop the skills. I was not aware of this stuff until I felt it for myself, you can’t understand it by reading about it, having it explained to you, or by seeing it on a vid. When you feel it you understand, and even then it still may not be for you, that is fine, but you will understand it alot better.

It’s a training method, not a style or exact technique way of doing something. Like you always say, we don’t fight with two hands forward like in chi sau but it is teaching us something that can be used in a variety of way in application.

It’s all training.

James

[uki]

[QUOTE=sihing;993394]It’s all training.[/QUOTE]you can say that again.

[k_gledhill]

Agreed, its only a hands on thing…trying to explain it is hard work, but Im like Philipp and his mind set of being open to all with it…the systematic development of a free fighter using the VT drills to achieve a simple end.
Many as I did too, get involved with chi-sao as the ‘way’ to figure out what the forms are for. They fight/spar at the end of every class and cant get the connection facing head on with lead legs etc…you have a great lead leg chain punch attack :o pak sao works
But I found that I needed a way to free myself of over controlling uys when fighting, iow I was asking the questions that WSL gave to Philipp, t5ransfering strikes with other strikes utilizing the natural arm angles along the centerline, as they cycle one after the other using opposite sides of the arms to maintain defensive cover ..ie tan is your outside forearm using the elbow leaving the line to displace with sharp ballistic forces …forward striking AND using muscle memory to recover the elbow line before the next strike, at high speeds…same for the strike staying on the line or moving to the line from raised elbows as bong…manipulation of the forearms to the positions of the opponents arm actions is available …as you thread the strikes in simultaneously using combintaions of facing and shifting relative to the action in real time…not sticking but seeking to strike like a two headed snake coiling into gaps as the opponents arms attempt to prevent its relentless entry …it takes one or maybe 2 bite if it Terence 9-10 bites hahah! just kidding T.

just a btw but WSL was meant to have beaten most guys within 3 moves ! understanding his ideas you could see why. Genius. I could never have seen it if it wasnt shown to me. to dumb

[k_gledhill]

Agreed, its only a hands on thing…trying to explain it is hard work, but Im like Philipp and his mind set of being open to all with it…the systematic development of a free fighter using the VT drills to achieve a simple end.
Many as I did too, get involved with chi-sao as the ‘way’ to figure out what the forms are for. They fight/spar at the end of every class and cant get the connection facing head on with lead legs etc…you have a great lead leg chain punch attack :o pak sao works
But I found that I needed a way to free myself of over controlling uys when fighting, iow I was asking the questions that WSL gave to Philipp, t5ransfering strikes with other strikes utilizing the natural arm angles along the centerline, as they cycle one after the other using opposite sides of the arms to maintain defensive cover ..ie tan is your outside forearm using the elbow leaving the line to displace with sharp ballistic forces …forward striking AND using muscle memory to recover the elbow line before the next strike, at high speeds…same for the strike staying on the line or moving to the line from raised elbows as bong…manipulation of the forearms to the positions of the opponents arm actions is available …as you thread the strikes in simultaneously using combintions of facing and shifting relative to the action in real time…not sticking but seeking to strike like a snake coiling into gaps as the opponents arms attempt to prevent its entry …it takes one bite

just a btw but WSL was meant to have beaten most guys within 3 moves ! understanding his ideas you could see why. Genius. I could never have seen it if it wasnt shown to me. to dumb

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;993344]There are certain drills we use to focus the students on their elbows and not wrists
[/QUOTE]

The power of the punch – like everything else – comes from your body, not your elbow or wrist.

[uki]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;993489]The power of the punch – like everything else – comes from your body, not your elbow or wrist.[/QUOTE]yet if your wrist and arms are out of harmony(weak) with your body, they’ll collapse under the power transfer.

[k_gledhill]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;993489]The power of the punch – like everything else – comes from your body, not your elbow or wrist.[/QUOTE]

never mentioned power source… just strike development. The source is simple physics.
Whatever you drive into the ground has an equal and opposite force…short shuffling steps allow a constant unbroken line of force , whatever you channel that force into with strikes in cycling rotation coupled with quadriceps driving into the ground to attack …add the turning facing force coupled with seung ma toi ma " point of impact " training to a precise point and we have KO ability …been there done that, may have been ‘scrubs’ but I treated all results of fights as ’ information’ feedback from striking …practical out of class experiences
Keeping elbows in helps channel force of the body weight ,etc… into the target.

The elbow alignment is for defensive ideas as we strike. naturally intercepting along an invisible line we create as we attack…like a traffic intersection you may crash you may not all depends on timing when you cross X ..only we dont worry because we have countermeasures to being stopped from crossing..we cross aggressively the intersection turns and we face to cross over …

there are heavy bag routines with simple elbow strike regimens to re-enforce the ideas…the whole system is always re-enforcing the cycling attacking alone or in partnership strike/s

the dummy develops the ‘shock’ Ging force , displacement energy for transfering our energy stopped abruptly to another object that takes the energy and is moved, while we hold our lines and strike or recover elbows to strike from…not having ‘chased’ across our own line after a redundant action…feint etc…

cycling through not posing in kwan…kwan is not used against one arm, and we dont stand with two extended arms as chi-sao so it presents itself as redundant to turn away from a guy with kwan …high low gausn sao is high jum strike low gaun sao…cycling to high tan strike , bong trained on the low arm fr displacement…not a pose not a 'move, but each arm individually cycling from attacking to defensive back to attacking , defensive again , while the other arm does the same …only one is always attacking..

until you see the tan and jum as simple elbow pre-strike training , you will see the system as a bunch of moves ..not a flowing ability to deliver an unbroken attack…

conceptually we are trying to do this …from day one , the system teaches techniques to deliver it…

low front kicks allow movement towards a taragte that has passed beyond hands…po pai to shove back into strike range, not just out the nearest window…flowing attacking, like rushing water, attacking water.

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;993492]never mentioned power source… just strike development. The source is simple physics.
[/QUOTE]

You don’t understand – by body I am not talking about the torso but the whole person, including the arms. You can’t isolate the parts. Just like you can’t separate mechanicsfrom power from anything else. The WCK punch is the whole body working together to perform a certain task.

Whatever you drive into the ground has an equal and opposite force…short shuffling steps allow a constant unbroken line of force , whatever you channel that force into with strikes in cycling rotation coupled with quadriceps driving into the ground to attack …add the turning facing force coupled with seung ma toi ma " point of impact " training to a precise point and we have KO ability …been there done that, may have been ‘scrubs’ but I treated all results of fights as ’ information’ feedback from striking …practical out of class experiences
Keeping elbows in helps channel force of the body weight ,etc… into the target.

You aren’t KO’ing anyone with your WCK punches.

I’ve seen Bayer’s videos and he is all arms and ONLY arms. One of the easiest ways to recognize poor WCK is the fast hands stuff – since fast hands only come from localized muscle. It means you are not using your body. That won’t do anything and will fall apartunder pressure.

The elbow alignment is for defensive ideas as we strike. naturally intercepting along an invisible line we create as we attack…like a traffic intersection you may crash you may not all depends on timing when you cross X ..only we dont worry because we have countermeasures to being stopped from crossing..we cross aggressively the intersection turns and we face to cross over …

This is all nonsense. You’re not goingto “intercept along an invisible line as you attack.” People aren’t going to be feeding you weak WCK punches that permit you to do these things.

[SAAMAG]

Guys c’mon. This thread has a good potential for being a good WING CHUN thread. Uki, Terence, can we try not to have this one turn sour too?

If you want to contribute, how about talking about the things that YOU do develop striking as a whole? What are the actual drills you’re doing? How often do you do it? That sort of stuff.

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=Vankuen;993565]Guys c’mon. This thread has a good potential for being a good WING CHUN thread. Uki, Terence, can we try not to have this one turn sour too?

If you want to contribute, how about talking about the things that YOU do develop striking as a whole? What are the actual drills you’re doing? How often do you do it? That sort of stuff.[/QUOTE]

OK.

I develop my striking just as boxers, muay thai, etc, does: by striking – and I mean REALLY striking (with power). This is just another example of you develop a skill by doing that skill. For me, that involves a lot of pad work (hitting things), and then sparring (hitting things). I do pad work and sparring every time I train WCK.

You don’t – and can’t – develop your striking by not hitting things or by “hitting” them with little power.

In WCK people tend to segment things, like the hand/arm and the body. The segmentation, both in “concept” and in practice, only leads to poor results. Tan sao, for instance, isn’t just what your arm is doing – it is what your whole body is doing, as your whole body is involved in performing it. The kuit tells us that Siu Nim Tao Lien Yiu Sen Ma: Siu Nim Tao trains the waist, torso and horse. It doesn’t say it is to learn the basic arm movements. The arm movements are just the extension of your waist, torso, and horse.

[SAAMAG]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;993344]There are certain drills we use to focus the students on their elbows and not wrists

keep the idea of having every action an attacking action, and that we don’t fight like chi-sao with 2 hands equally extended…one leads one follows…cycles of attacking actions..strikes with dual simultaneous ability to block/strike as they move back and forth cycling along the centerlines, as you angle and shift flowing with the opponent …[/quote]
Although Wing Chun as most know it favors being square on to allow for equal representation of each side; your description is the way I like doing it as well because it is more natural feeling for me and is more closely resembling the way I’d actually fight. You’re using long bridge and short bridge as well I assume?

…

Well, to define my idea of “striking” development, I first define my idea of a proper strike. A proper strike requires (1) maximum power generation, (2) maxmimum speed, and (3) Proper timing

Power Generation
[INDENT]Definition: The development of kinetic force.[/INDENT]
[LIST=1]

Correct body mechanics / joint alignment [INDENT]Example: for the Kuen, making sure the punch is directed with the elbow, making sure that power flows from the ground through the heel, knee, hip, spine, shouler, elbow, and wrist.[/INDENT]

Softness in delivery (relaxation) [INDENT]Establishing the idea that when the muscles are relaxed in movement, that more speed can be developed and subsequently more power (to the limit of the mass being moved). [/INDENT] [/LIST]

Speed
[INDENT]Definition: The time it takes for an object to move from point a to point b; and also the time it takes for the brain to respond to stimulus and command an action. [/INDENT]

• Mechanical speed [INDENT]This is done simply through repitition with the already ingrained mechanical structure and relaxation.[/INDENT]
• Neural-response speed [INDENT]This is achieved through stimulus drills that vary in nature like a beep, the initiation of a partners punch (they punch first you hit first)...etc.[/INDENT]

Timing
[INDENT]Definition: Timing is proper application of the technique that maximizes the chance of success and allows for the strike to work at an even higher efficacy because the opponent’s movement adds to the effectiveness of the impending strike. [/INDENT]

• Single step drills [INDENT]For example a drill where the parter punches once and the student learns to stop-hit.[/INDENT]
• Multi step drills [INDENT]Using the example above, where this occurs in 2-3-4-X steps.[/INDENT]
• Focus Mitts & Pad Hitting [INDENT]It is important to note this is done while moving and using footwork, to ingrain distance and timing and the success is determined by how "square" the hit lands on the mitt or pad[/INDENT]
• Heavy Bag [INDENT]If you're alone, heavy bag work can be used for this as well by simple having the bag swing (and keeping it swinging) in order to time when to hit it with maxium effect. Punching it as it swings away produces less power than if it is going towards the strike. Hitting bag in general also aids in developing power as it "corrects" the person on their mechanics if it is done wrong.[/INDENT]
• Sparring drills [INDENT]Where sparring is done, but limits are placed on one or both individuals to work on a specific skillset.[/INDENT]
• Sparring drills [INDENT]The epitomy of one's training IMO. This is where everything is put together, and where you learn through doing the proper application of striking using all its components.[/INDENT]

[JPinAZ]

IMO, you develop striking power in ‘stages’. You can teach the student the whole body connectivity, and it should be a very important factor and end-goal for delivering the most powerful punch, but it surely isn’t the only, or most efficient way to train it.
You also have to break it down by isolating the separate parts of the body - foot work/knee, hip alignment, wrist/elbow position along with or slightly prior-to using the whole body. Basically, you can’t just say ‘hit the bag with your whole body connected’ and then they figure it all out. That’s the long long road, and can lead to people becoming frustrated with their WC and looking to other stuff like MMA for answers, when they are right there in front of you
Plus, without the isolation training, there is no way to fine tune what isn’t working for them.

To teach someone how to punch, while punching with total-body connectivity is the end goal, you have to also focus on the separate parts. This is done with both solo work and bag work.
For the arm, you can drill from a stationary stance (YJKYM). You have to learn how to set proper elbow/wrist/striking point position to be able to maintain the strongest structural alignment each time (triangle theory). You focus on all 3 dimensions for each part - height, depth and width so your structure doesn’t fall apart when you start using more energy or in application. Of course they won’t get it on day one, but you have to start somewhere. And this is done solo and also with pad/bag work.

For the footwork, proper position of the toe/heel and knee hip alignment is important when they step, as well as when they land. There is also consideration of distance if stepping, and also alignment of the parts to target when landing. Again, this can be isolated without the hands both solo, and also with a target/person for alignment.

These separate training methods are then put together when striking with the whole body connectivity as the focus again. Both solo and with targets and ultimately in sparring (applying what you learned). This will teach them how to put their parts together and work as the whole body being one unit - Learning proper heaven/human and earth triangles and how they connect together.

Then, when something breaks down or further development is needed, you go back and focus on areas that need work then try again. Nothing is really linear in your learning, and it’s all important. Sure, they should be working on striking with the whole body from the begining, both with targets and in sparring, but they also need to be able to do focused training to build the attributes and structures up properly. You have to learn to crawl before you walk, walk before you jog, etc.

Of course, I didn’t even talk about how things like timing, breath and energy usage are trained or untilized. Mostly just on structure and mechanics, but it’s all important as well. Your training is never done IMO and it is always a benifit to re-focus on the simplest of the basics.

[SAAMAG]

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;993614]IMO, you develop striking power in ‘stages’. You can teach the student the whole body connectivity, and it should be a very important factor and end-goal for delivering the most powerful punch, but it surely isn’t the only, or most efficient way to train it.
You also have to break it down by isolating the separate parts of the body - foot work/knee, hip alignment, wrist/elbow position along with or slightly prior-to using the whole body. Basically, you can’t just say ‘hit the bag with your whole body connected’ and then they figure it all out. That’s the long long road, and can lead to people becoming frustrated with their WC and looking to other stuff like MMA for answers, when they are right there in front of you
Plus, without the isolation training, there is no way to fine tune what isn’t working for them.[/quote]
VERY good point and absolutely correct. Though it’s not too hard to watch someone throw a punch and see where those errors lie, and then you can go about simply focusing on the connectivity pieces that aren’t quite right.

[k_gledhill]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;993506]You don’t understand – by body I am not talking about the torso but the whole person, including the arms. You can’t isolate the parts. Just like you can’t separate mechanicsfrom power from anything else. The WCK punch is the whole body working together to perform a certain task.

You aren’t KO’ing anyone with your WCK punches.

I’ve seen Bayer’s videos and he is all arms and ONLY arms. One of the easiest ways to recognize poor WCK is the fast hands stuff – since fast hands only come from localized muscle. It means you are not using your body. That won’t do anything and will fall apartunder pressure.

This is all nonsense. You’re not goingto “intercept along an invisible line as you attack.” People aren’t going to be feeding you weak WCK punches that permit you to do these things.[/QUOTE]

You cant even understand what Im talking about…

[user24]

Actually both gledhill and terence are correct, gledhill emphasizes on (Cyclic punches etc), whereas terence emphasizes on (Strength comes from the body)

One very good way of developing the strikes is to hit on the wall bag, firm and slow with
each strike, (not the Yip Man movie ones).

[YungChun]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;993506]
The WCK punch is the whole body working together to perform a certain task.
[/quote]

Correct.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;993506]
You aren’t KO’ing anyone with your WCK punches.
[/quote]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;993506]
fast hands only come from localized muscle. It means you are not using your body. That won’t do anything and will fall apartunder pressure.
[/quote]
Slightly off.

Actually really fast hands (speed) does come from the body.. If you only use localized muscle you will never get as much speed or power as when you are grounded and the body is powering the arms.. (sequential summation of motion) The fastest attacks with arms are powered by the body.. Of course it depends on what kinds of movements…

What you really mean here is that the arms must be synced with the body as a single unit in motion, action. So then no, the ultra high speed CPs we often see are not synced, not connected and will have very little power.

EDIT:

BTW T a good example of why and what folks need to be shown.. Many don’t get this point… and need to be shown…shown…!!! So there goes your ‘your teacher can’t show you…’ Students do need to be shown many a thing…

[Wayfaring]

As another viewpoint in developing strikes, I wanted to highlight how boxers, MT boxers, and MMA fighters develop strikes. In this, I won’t necessarily focus on the science and specific technique of the strikes, but in the training methods which are utilized to take the specific science and technique and train them to a high level that is effective in striking an opponent who is moving around and trying to strike you back in an alive fashion. If WCK boxers would train strikes with the same developmental model you see boxers, MT boxers, and MMA fighters they might see better results.

One interesting point about the training methodology here - you don’t really see a whole lot of MMA fighters, boxers, or MT boxers growing frustrated with their striking skills as learned via this training method and turn to WCK. Yet apparently through other methods of training WCK striking that occurs with people leaving it and taking up MMA. This is worth reflecting on. The skills being learned and the method they are trained in MMA, MT, Boxing have ENOUGH BUILT-IN FEEDBACK that they don’t have to wonder if they are increasing in ability, strength, power, agility, effective fighting skills. They actually know because they can measure it for themselves. One of the ways this feedback is obtained is through the consistent live application against skilled opponents.

MMA, MT, Boxing trains the development of fundamentals through pad work. Power is developed through hitting the heavy bag. This is done in conditioning rounds of typically 3 minutes long, with many rounds done in a session. The same with MT pads - combinations are trained in rounds striking the pads. This develops both the power in the strike as well as the stamina and endurance to strike with power for an extended period of time.

Footwork is developed through jumping rope - which develops agility and stamina for quick movement as well as many other drills to train movement. These also are trained in rounds or for a specified duration. This develops the agility and endurance to move with good footwork that will enable a fighter to maintain their structure in fast aggressive situations.

Striking a moving target is trained through focus pads as well as speed bags. Combinations are the starting point with focus pads, and then eventually a freestyle sparring session is reached complete with slipping and ducking movements. This trains the skill of hitting a target in a moving alive environment.

A boxer in training will do something similar to the following training regimen:

1. Running 1 mile a day
2. Jump rope 15-45 min a day
3. Bag work 3 days a week 10 rounds minimum
4. Pad work 3 days a week 1.5 hours minimum
5. Sparring 6 days a week 30 min sessions

So when you look at this, the sheer repetition and high training numbers show you how quickly striking skills develop.

In contrast to this, the typical training regimen of a WCK practitioner mostly looks as follows:

1. Running from the parking lot to the kwoon 3x per week - @600ft.
2. Jump rope jump what?
3. Bag work we use the dummy for that, so did the dummy sets 3x @ 7 min.
4. Pad work we dont need to chase hands with pad work we do compliant chi sau with air punches. 30 min.
5. Sparring on Saturdays attendance optional and low. 1.5 hours.
6. Forums 3 hrs / week.
   So the fact that most WCK practitioners hands dont contain the skill of an average boxer is not difficult to spot why.

The suggestion is for the WCK practitioner, rather than quitting your striking development in WCK and seeking answers somewhere else, why dont you buy yourself a good mouth guard and cup, some gloves MMA and Boxing, and some decent shin pads and start mixing it up with boxers, MT boxers ,and MMA fighters? Oh, and get yourself a timer. Set it to 3-5 min. Hit start.