denigrating Park's Ba Gua

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
21

I have to agree with Daredevil

Willow sword is displaying some true IGNORANCE in his/her posts, I gotta give TBT respect for not getting angry at that. I also see and have some agreement with the position of Maoshan and TBT; I’ve only been learning for a year, but it seems like there’s not a high enough quality of actual fighting ability among bagua practitioners, it’s good to see someone who is showing the application of the theories and changes and not afraid to take on fighters of different styles. I don’t know much about Park, so I won’t comment on that situation, although I don’t agree with putting him down based on his students- they could be his worst.

22

Me a racist?//ignorant.???

actually i am NOT a RACIST AND those are not racist comments,if i were to call black taoist another ******* lowlife nigga,THEN I WOULD BE A RACIST.(no disrespect to your race blacktaoist,just giving an example of what a racist comment is to the ignoramous)…As far as the ignorance goes,MANN it just goes to show that your internal martial arts Are still EXTERNAL. yes yes yes i agree that these arts are about fighting as well,but being some one who has 15 yrs in this relm i can say that the fighting is definatley SURFACE LEVEL. all fighting is,for it is easy to do,the hard part is to walk an internal path and be rooted within yourself and be able to go beyond the fighting and shed that ego of wanting to boast about how tough you are and how another system sucks or is fake…Black Taoist makes some pretty dasterdly claims with his trip on master Park.

you think that by doing the pakua form and learning the myriad of endless fighting applications that this makes you a internal martial artist? there ARE CONCEPTS AND PRINCIPLES to which pakua was formed and the fighting is only a smidgeon of what this art and taichi and hsingi is capable of achieving(within yourself). fighting is about survival and i do it when i must,sometimes i go to the surface and have to set a persons attitude straight(as in my posts on the shaolin forum) but here,in this forum, it is an exchange of internal perspectives and ideas,NOT A BASH AGAINST PRACTICIONERS. i come to the defense of MAster Park and i am not a student of his but i have read his books and i have talked with master park briefly and as an internalist i can say that HE IS WHAT HE SAYS HE IS.
i will say this about practicing martial arts be they internal external or both…the level at which a student has ability depends on the dedication and seriousness at which he/she puts into what he/she is practicing…some are good and some are not so good.
you know when i am doing pakua or taichi or hsingi i am not thinking about fighting or how this could kick somebodies ass,i am going deeper into the movements and the root and the center and the trees and mountains around me,one of the feelings i get is that i am as rooted and as strong as the mountains which i train in…not about breaking a guys limbs or thinking ,hmm i wonder if i could fuk sombody up with this move.
ignorance??? Far from it. :cool:
so Waidan(Matt) and EDB. anything else to add from your EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE?? EDB(one year of training) and WAidan? dont need your respect. read below quote waidan its for you.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.
oh and,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

23

TWS

Not cool

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

24

A couple of the guys on this thread musta put crank in their coffee this morning.

25

TWS Buddy, you’ve got some serious issues.

First off, yes, your comments were insulting and racially motivated. If you can’t see that, you need to seek out help. Maybe that sounds facetious, but I’m not kidding.

“but not all people want to be GANGSTA Pakua MC FLASH AND DASH.”

“yo bro put yo balls back in yo pants and be internal for a change”

Do you have some sort of “higher, internal” reason for making statements like these?

Second, I don’t like being called an “a$”, even if it was indirectly. For someone who claims such one-ness with the world, you have a very short fuse. And btw, what exactly was the point of mentioning my name? Was that meant to be a threat? Was that supposed to humble me in some way?

In short, get a freaking grip on yourself. Oh, and have your blood pressure checked regularly.

[This message was edited by Waidan on 08-23-01 at 01:27 PM.]

26

TWS,

Dude, you’re suck a hypocryte. You get mad at others for having big egos, yet you’ve been involeved in a constant flamewar and challenged a complete stranger becuase he said your style sucks! In BT’s defence(not that he needs me to defend him) he lives in NYC. Fighting better be #1! Fighting is the basis of all martial arts. If you can’t use your martial arts to defend yourself well then the rest doesn’t matter. This goes for Taiji, Hung Gar, Xingyi, Bagua, Kartate, even “performance” wushu!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Pakua taichi and hsingi is what i do as well[/quote]
You’re such a joke. Have fun practicing your Karate.

27

Sorry if I offended any Karate guys out there.

28

SO near and yet so far

in the still waters but not going any deeper.
like a water strider that is so light that it cannot sink,it stays on the surface. unaware of the big fish that dwell quite comfortably below.
words are spoken,thier intent is scattered to the 4 winds. negative begets positive,positive begets the negative,yang diminishes yin yin compliments yang,walking in circles and circles around what your perceptions tell you.
has your heart ever spoken to you?

harsh words make for harsh breath and in saying the things that the black taoist has said he creates for himself an air of response that plays to his own actions words and attitudes.
those who know dont tell and those who tell dont know.

brad: What does the word Karate mean? it means empty hand,it is a japanese way of explaining a lot.. empty your cup and fill it with realization.

Waidan(matt): jesse jackson once said" one thing that blows my mind of the track,is a white suburban kid tryin to act black".
eminem acts talks and does rap like he is black: DOES that make him a racist?
i remember vanilla ice(oh boy do i ever remember that joker) he talked black in interviews and qouted all the hip jive sayings of the time: does that make him racist?
willow sword caters to the harsh words of blacktaoist by quoting some old school jive and utilizing it in a jesting manner: does that make me a racist??
ill answer for you: NO

                 Many respects: Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.
oh and,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

29

Guandi, what are you taking about?

“Even if it was the second or maybe the third visit, it is still very, very, short for becoming a representative. Far to short in my opinion.”

First of all Guandi as I said before I’ve been to China before by myself not my whole crew. It was longer then 2 weeks. I say about 6 months the first 3 times I went. This was in the early eighties. This was when people in my neighborhood didn’t know what Pa Kua was all about. Sh*t I was the only brother that had a passport. As far as a representative goes…that’s all it means a rep or connection. I’m not saying that I’m his lineage holder, becuase Master Su Si Xi has other advanced students better qualified then me.

“You wrote that they viewed some Ba Gua tapes and laughed about it about the poor quality. On the other side there is “twardows tom” in bejing who is living (not just for two short weeks) and is studying Ba Gua there and he says that no high level bagua man in bejing has ever heard about your teacher there.”

Your first statement – I did say I view other so-called masters that claim to know Pa Kua Chang in America – after all do I not live in America? So I showed them, tapes of individuals claiming to be proficient in Pa Kua Chang. That was their opinion if they feel they weren’t good. I still stand by my views. Most Pa Kua Chang practitioners aren’t sh*t. You can call me an egomaniac all you want, but I don’t go around pretending that I can fight. I know I can fight. Most of these instructors haven’t been in real street fights or even in a real tournament – point, semi or full contact. I have. I will tell you what they will say, we don’t do tournaments our art is too deadly.

Your second statement concerning this guy from Beijing, name twardows tom. First of all what is he the Pa Kua Ambassador? As anybody knows Beijing is big area that has many providence’s. In the cities themselves there are many districts. So what he lives there? I know brothers that live in Beijing that are students in Beijing University. So what are you saying? As far as high level masters in Beijing, ever hearing of somebody – the real masters don’t come out! So what are you saying? Nothing!

“I did not mean with that statement with that their teacher is not any good, but hat it very is to discredit somebody. tbt is doing this with Park, but their own claims are not better verifiable, too”

I know who my teacher is. I have many to be exact. As far as my Yin style training goes. I say it again, I train under Chen Xiao Ping . Anybody in New York knows that. Just ask Li Tai Liang. I know my teacher’s lineage – they don’t. My teacher studied under Shi Chixing, and Shi Chixing studied Cao Shongsheng, and Cao studied from Ma Kui and Yin Fu. So what are you saying? Nothing! As I said before, I don’t study with fakes. After all how else could have I gotten the pictures that are on my website? Did I go to Beijing to Zhang Li’s house to steal them? Or is Chen Xiao Ping is just taking pictures for the hell of it? Stop being ignorant. Can Park say the same? I don’t think so. How can you be a lineage holder, and don’t know who your instructor was? Better yet how can you not know the date when your teacher died? Li Ching Wu (1864:?). Do your research, Guandi. Even a monkey can figure this out. How can Park’s teacher make him a lineage holder if his teacher himself don’t know when his teacher first instructor died and don’t’ even know the name of the second teacher that he met. But yet his teacher claims he studied with a fourth generation practitioner in Dong Hai Chuan’s lineage. And you are trying to tell me he is a lineage holder? Man…please – let’s get real wake up. You talk about my claims not verifiable? At least I got substance. Lastly, people I talk about are the people I come across. If they got skill, they got skill. The people in Pa Kua I met didn’t have any skills. Most people that I have met that have skills are from other martial arts like Hung Gar, Boxing, Judo, and Karate. If you visit their schools you can see them free fighting, unrehearsed. I can’t say the same about all these fake Pa Kua schools out here.

Peace

30

Prejudice vs. Racism

Willow, quoting black men talking about a white man doesn’t explain your prejudice views. Is Emimen or Vanilla Ice racist? Well let’s define racism and prejudice. Prejudice is to pre-judge someone. For example – If I don’t like white people because of 400 years of slavery then I’m pre- judging all white people. Racism is - if I use my force and will on white people because of my pre-judging views.

Now is Emimen racist? If he is forcing his views on black people - then his is racist. I’m not going to argue if you are or not. The bottom line is, you are making comments that are out of context of the discussion. Don’t hate on African’s that are bringing intellectual and realistic information on a martial art that is dominated by Europeans. You cannot stand the idea of people of color with this type of knowledge.

Damn, we broke all the rules, not only are we being trained as fighters. But we know Pa Kua history, philosophy and theory. Oh, we even have a website displaying information. To hit you with the knockout blow WE AS PA KUA CHANG PRATITIONERS EVEN WENT TO BEIJING – THE CAPITAL OF PA KUA CHANG!

31

****** Razak!!!
Just who in the Hell do you think you are??
You know BaGua is a White Man’s art!!! Just look at all the masters. There Dong H.., no uh there’s YinF.. oops, hold on. Cheng Ting H..? Nope, Sun Lu Ta..

Damn, nevermind

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

32

come on, man

Guandi:

First, You don’t know what your talking about. But let me help you out.
We are learning and teaching Ma Gui’s Ba-Gua, and we have been for the last 7yrs. When we say the Cao branch, Cao Zhong Sheng was a student of Fu Wen Yuan a student of Ma Gui. So in truth we have been doing Ma’s Ba-Gua. Chen Xiao Ping is from Beijing So Learning from him has been like being there. We were approved of the last time we were there By Lo Shih Su and as promised if certain requirements were met This would be the result.
2 weeks? Yo , we never paid for anything, just the trip. So your conceptions are extremely flawed.

As to the Websites, your right. So what ever comes we’ll deal with it, we have no problem.

Now whoever it is that you supposedly have in Beijing checking up on the validity of our claims. Personally I believe your lying,
We’ve already had someone claim that they checked with the Bagua association in Beijing they lied as well. After the Li Zi Ming incident they won’t deal with westerners past a certain level.
In-depth information on the living treasures is out.

Wujidude:

<Yeah, but what people perceive from postings by you and Novell so far is a lot of <methane gas, not cream. You don’t need to say **** putting down people you haven’t <met.
I’ve trained with Park twice, And after 20+yrs of nothing but Bagua Under various instructors, I’m in position to make an evaluation. But this was not so much about park as his students. And a student is a reflection of their teacher. But other than that, your cool man, Peace.
Willow sword:

You Don’t know anything about me, The first 5yrs of my training consisted of nothing but Qigong/Neigong. Health was the paramount issue, but than again if your being taught correctly in the first place the health aspects are a given. If you have to concentrate on the health than you must be sickly. That was never my problem. So I learn them both together as they should be taught. Also, let’s get something straight , I’m the senior here, the Taoist is my younger brother. But we are equal here in this, We didn’t learn psudeo ba-gua, at the end of 2yrs I was just learning the 3rd palm. I learned traditionally. The internal will always overshadow the external. There’s nothing surface here. And after 20+yrs of doing nothing But Ba-Gua Zhang In all it’s aspects and still learning. The fighting aspects of the art have been seriously downplayed with the pretensions that chi exercises is all you need to do in preparation for a fighting. Bull****! Without Unrehearst sparring, how do you learn to use ba-gua effectively? The very way bagua moves requires that a special timing be attained. Without conditioning, you won’t be able to match a skilled opponent. One step sparring JUST AIN”T IT. Anyone’s knowledge of Ba-Gua is seriously limited if they think so.

Now the health aspects are well known, in fact I cured myself of a bleeding ulcer in 1985 with the internal aspects of Ba-Gua. Your not telling anyone anything. We Teach the art in it’s completeness,
Fighting and health, and in proper teaching the two can’t be separated.

And I also see your one of those individuals who doesn’t know that their a racist. the way you hoped on the language shows just that. But back to the point. The fakes are those who down grade fighting in a martial art meant to be applied against 8 skilled opponents. How do you reach that ability if you don’t fight? It’s you who better take another look at what your doing. Individuals like you are the reason for what happened to taichi in this country. It’s been watered to crap. Me and my brother have vowed NOT to let that happen to Ba-Gua. If your hurt along the way, Tisk,tisk.

As to master Park, He may indeed be a master he certainly has power. I trained with him twice in the 80’s, I felt him. The Subject again was his students and study groups. Park teaches many places there’s no way he can check up on the progress of all these students. Second, That is not Yin Fu Ba-Gua. It’s a hybrid at best. Why Mention it? When we talk about Yin style and one of parks people interject their methods in to the subject. It doesn’t apply. So how do you expect us to react. That’s like saying water is cool aide. come on keep it real.

Maoshan

33

Maoshan,
It’s pretty much been known for a while that Park is not known for giving his art out to anyone. I remeber reading something a few years back from a Park student that basically said: Yeah, Park’s definately the real deal, but he only gives out the surface. I have heard recently that he is beginning to be more open, but that’s just hearsay.

As far as mixing, if the skill is genuine, does it matter if it’s pure or mixed.

For the record, I don’t even do Pakua. But I do find it a fascinating art.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

34

TWS

“eminem acts talks and does rap like he is black: DOES that make him a racist?” Eminem was once asked in a interview why he talks black and he said something like ‘I didnt know black people are supposed to talk a particuliar way.’ Not a exact quote but from my memory, I liked it. The way I see things isn’t so much black culture, white culture more so culture of environment(urban vs suburb vs country vs whatever.) So you’ll find white people who you might have grown up in a urban area that you would call a wigger and you’ll find black people who grew up in the suburbs that you others might call an uncle tom. And of course these are unfair stereotypes and noone needs to have the burden of living up to expectations of others to fulfill some ethnic race supiority especially when it doesnt serve them. Good luck with your challenge match in Austin, I’d be interested in how your preparing for it maybe you could do it here and your opponent wont see it.

35

TBT/ I Ching

I think I might be able to clear up one of the misunderstandings in this thread and from your site. From an old post I remember that you do in fact use the I Ching but use African Religion to interpret it. See this is the problem if you had been looking through a Taoists eyes on the interpretation then you would see how they would apply to BaguaZhang. Actually I’ve never read the I Ching but from what I understand each trigram can be seen in any action or moment so perhaps someone very well learned in it could use correlations to help understand theyre practice. So just as you divide things using Yin/Yang things can also be divided into the Trigrams, I don’t think it matters personally but it maybe be a good teaching tool. Ok I don’t know anything so you all who know better just realize this post is just out of boredom and my limited understanding. One thing to note though Ive not heard good things of traditional arts anywhere even In China but Beijing might be the Baguazhang capitol or maybe San Fran. So if I’m from China and I travel to say study with Vince Black(whom I’ve heard good things about so I use as an example but if you think he’s no good please keep it to yourself because he’s only an example) in Hsing-I and I’m blown away how good this guy is in the 2 or 3 times I visit and study which may amount to say a month and I somehow conclude that American Hsing-I is great and this Chinese Hsing-I is watered down that is some logic when I haven’t checked out other cities and too many teachers to count. DaveC on here has some interesting things to say about the state of CMA in Taiwan with Karate being more popular and the same could be said with Wushu in China.

36

Personally, I don’t get it why we have to get talk of people’s race into martial arts discussions. It has very little relevance to anything.

Damn, our knowledge of the Chinese Martial Arts is only because of some masters with open minds, who decided they wouldn’t act out their society’s prejudice on those who wanted to become their students. I mean, all students of CMA should be fiercely anti-racist if anything.

These days, martial arts is a great thing that goes beyond color and I’m damn proud to know that this stuff is practised all around the world, by different people of different races, so could we just get on with the real conversation and forget these racial issues?

37

Man i love this

turning this into a racial thing,what a grave misunderstanding on the part of those who feel that I am a racist and prejudiced. the rules of physics state that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. this can be applied to what people post in here. you stste one thing and it gets answered in the manner in which it was presented. i wont answer any more of this racial crap,let it be stated by me that I AM NOT A RACIST and will FIGHT to stand behind that.
my whole beef with all of this is the CONSTANT DISRESPECT OF MASTERS PARCTITIONERS AND MARTIAL SYSTEMS HERE ON THIS BOARD. WHEN ARE ALL YOU FUKHEADS GOING TO STOP ALREADY??? this is too much,all any of you do ,with the exception of some,is boast and posture and sling sh1t and talk sh1t. WTF is your alls’ problem???
some of us actually come here to exchange ideas and talk about what we do,but when someone makes a statement about anothers practice that is negative the crap flies and this crap starts.
ARE ALL OF YOU JUST LITTLE CHILDREN OR PUPPIES BARKING IN THE SCHOOLYARD???
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT,ITS ALL ABOUT THE FIGHT AND REPRESENTIN YOSELF AND SPREADIN THE TRUTH ,AS YOU KNOW IT TO BE. EVERYONE HAS GOT A GOD COMPLEX HERE!!!
YOU KNOW SOMETHING FUK YOUR OPINIONS IF THEY ARE NEGATIVE…JUST KEEP ON PROMOTING THE VIOLENCE AND THE EGO AND THE BRUTALITY!!!
I AM FED UP WITH people such as most of you here that feel that need to put down disrespect and stomp on folks trying to make a living and teaching what they know without getting the 5th degree…
despite my comments to black taoist in jest the main message to him and all the people at his school is to START GETTING INTERNAL,THIS IS WHAT THE INTERNAL MARTIAL ARTS ARE ABOUT…NOT THIS EGO DISPLAY OF HOW MY D1CK IS BIGGER THAN YOURS OR MY MASTER CAN FUK UP YOURS…
oh am i raving??? goodness gracious me!!!
im mad you see…
This has gone on long enough in these posts people.

i know we live in a free country and have a right to abuse the freedoms givin us but THE MODERATERS HERE BETTER START POLICING THIS FORUM AND KICKING OUT ALL THE TROLLS AND INSULTERS AND LET THE REST OF US GET BACK TO WHAT THE FORUMS WERE ORIGINALLY SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT: AN EXCHANGE OF IDEAS IN A RESPECTFUL MANNER WITHOUT HAVING TO BE SUBJECTED TO THIS CRAP FROM EGOTISTS LIKE BT
WAIDAN,BRAD AND MANY OTHERS…MODERATERS,YOU KNOW WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE,YOUR ORGANIZATION IS A PRIVATE ONE(I WOULD GUESS) KICK THESE FUKERS OFF…
ill tell you this when they stop being aggressive punks then i will stop being defensive and callin them what they are: immature children who wear thier souls on thier shirt sleeves.

               Many Respects,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.
oh and,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

38

>Now whoever it is that you supposedly have in
>Beijing checking up on the validity of our
>claims. Personally I believe your lying,

you are very fast with claiming that one is lying. I just referenced to tomasz at Jareks site. Will cite him here. You can go to Jareks site. What I am citing here is his answer to your question on that site.

1.I’m living in Beijing if you want to meet with you should come here
2.If we are talking about bagua association the chairman is Ma Chuanxi - I know him personally and some anothers guys from this association
If we talking about Li ziming book - you should know that Liziming"s wife won in th court - and what is your problem?!
3. the famous Military and Police teacher is still Ma chunaxu (he taught Jiang Zeming bodyguards) and now because hi is retired this post take his the best disciple - funny is that your are not the first guy from America who claimed that his teacher is famous Milatary and police teacher but the truth nobody know him here
4.I personally know Xie Pei qi and he didn’t remeber any guy about this name like that!!!
next simple mathematic my friend:
your hero is 20 years younger than Xie peiqi who started practise with Men Baozhen when he was 14 yeras old how can Su Si Xi can be his older brother in kung fu - he was not born yet!!!
5. Nobody can be in this same timestudent of Ma gui and Men Baozhen - read more about how looks society in this time
6. I don’t care that your friend is US rep. because I’m not from US- I’m living in Beijing
7. Su Xi Si is teachning every Saturday and Sunday near from South gate of Tiantan Park about 5 to 7 a.m.
and question can your friend speak Chinese? I heard that: no - from his students
and btw next time try to be more polite to people

Guandi

39

WTS,

Why is it ok for you to call my style useless for self defence? If anyone disagrees with you you call them childish. My main problem was with you mocking people who use slang in that ou are somehow superior. I think YOU’RE the one who should be banned! Constantly using foul language and picking fights like a five year old. You’re worse than any troll on this forum, since you’re actualy a real person, who actualy believes the crap that comes out of your mouth. One minute you’re yelling, TYPING ***** ALL IN CAPS! and then spouting unrelated philosiphy the next. One might come to think you’re mentally imbalanced. I think you’ve allready destroyed whatever positive reputation you had on the internal board. You seem to be incapable of holding a rational conversation with anyone who disagrees with you. Seek help.
I still can’t believe you can’t see how perople would think you’re predjudice. You make fun of how people in a certain area talk by mocking them.

40

The reason for the creation of this forum

Let me explain how this whole post started. Guandi ask a question on an article that was written on Maoshan’s website. The black Taoist responded to the question. If he didn’t respond to the question he would be damned. He responded anyway so he is still damned. I’m not here to agree or disagree with TBT actions or opinions on the Park situation. I here to inform everyone that what anybody writes on their own website is their prerogative. Please do not expect an answer you might like if you ask a tough question. Everyone knows TBT and Maoshan have strong views on issues. One thing I respect about them is everyone is fully aware of where these guys can be located. So they are not hiding behind a computer.

Please also OVERSTAND that unlike most people, TBT and Maoshan look at things from an African perspective. They come from there own experiences and they don’t just use a Chinese perspective.

I hope this clears up why this post was created. We didn’t create it. Guandi created it.

By the Way, Water Dragon the comment I made earlier –

“Don’t hate on African’s that are bringing intellectual and realistic information on a martial art that is dominated by Europeans. You cannot stand the idea of people of color with this type of knowledge.”

Was directed to Willord sword. To answer your comment -

“****** Razak!!!
Just who in the Hell do you think you are??
You know BaGua is a White Man’s art!!! Just look at all the masters. There Dong H.., no uh there’s YinF.. oops, hold on. Cheng Ting H..? Nope, Sun Lu Ta.. “

Pa Kua Chang practitioners and students in the US are primarily of European descent. I have no problem with that but as people of color we are always attacked in any discipline we pursue. All I was doing was defending myself on Willows mindset.

Don’t hate the messenger for the message