Countering the hook punch

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Hendrik;1215047]A wing Chun solution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z38hM4LCBU[/QUOTE]

It is not a good idea to try and attack the arm when trying to defend a hook punch. In a controlled environment you can make many things work. In a real fight things are too fast and furious and to think you can make contact with the correct part of the arm at the right time to stop a hook is not safe IMO.

What if the opponent was throwing two hooks or one followed by a right cross, a kick or a grab? You would get yourself into all sorts of problems trying to catch the arm that way.

I tried such an action once against a person who didn’t know any Wing Chun or MMA although he was know to be able to tear it up a bit. I made this mistake of trying to catch the punch with tan da. Although I ended getting the better of him, his leg came up and I nearly took one in the goolash. I later changed my thing to fook sau…even worse. Still the same problem. Now I have a different idea that doesn’t get me into strife.

Many Wing Chun actions that I have been taught in the past and see on many YouTube videos never stop to consider what may be thrown next. The Teacher/Student knows which punch is coming and therefore success is a little more certain. This way of defending a hook is too 50/50 meaning that your opponent has as much chance of making contact as you even though you are throwing what seems to be an attacking action.

In my opinion it’s much better to try and stop the opponent hooking at all. A kick is much more practical than chasing arms. Pre emting an attack is also better if possible. There is a whole strategy in Ving Tsun that limits where the opponent can aim his punches by not presenting yourself as a square on target. I rarely see that in most cases of Ving Tsun.

If you are to remain square, fail to pre empt, fail to throw a kick or offset/upset your opponent then maybe you are going to get hit that day. The chances of getting hit in a fight are a lot greater than not being hit. Realizing that and accepting it is a lot better than trying to stop arms in specific areas when the guy/guys stood in front of you are trying to seriously hurt you by any means necessary.

This whole tan da/fook da nonsense is rubbish. Best way to try is to ask somebody to try and hit you properly not knowing which attacks are going to be thrown. A lot of questions are answered and most people I have contact with suddenly start seriously questioning what Wing Chun they have been taught.

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Counter with a punch, palm, forearm, elbow, cover with the free hand. (crazxy monkey, tan, biu, whatever is instinctive.)

Paul

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[QUOTE=Paul T England;1215168]cover with the free hand.

Paul[/QUOTE]

You mean like a boxer??? :confused:

So you are trying to prevent the hook from making contact by using your hand to cover?:confused:

Please elaborate

44

What most people miss training against the hook is the weight transfer. Meaning WHEN you are going to see the hook. The cross or straight 2 punch transfers the weight forward onto the front leg. The hook transfers the weight back to the back leg. Thus in a sense its shifting the weight back away from the opponent and the entry of the punch is on a blind angle.

Of course there are hooks with both hands and other entries. But I have NEVER seen any WCK instructionals on countering the hook that properly deals with the context and weight transfer where you are most likely to encounter the hook. Almost all instructionals have a guy stepping forward hooking just like they would a haymaker or a straight punch. That’s pretty much outside the realm of when you would actually see it live, and it’s missing a lot of the live energy. So if you train it that way, you’ll probably get hit by one without seeing it in a live environment.

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[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1215188]What most people miss training against the hook is the weight transfer. Meaning WHEN you are going to see the hook. The cross or straight 2 punch transfers the weight forward onto the front leg. The hook transfers the weight back to the back leg.
[/QUOTE]

Not in any boxing gym or MT camp that I’ve ever trained in. You can throw a hook whilst transferring the weight backwards if you are in retreat but the most powerful and therefore preffered way of throwing it is to keep the weight forward, sink the weight and drive the punch from the waist and legs

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[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1215203]Not in any boxing gym or MT camp that I’ve ever trained in. You can throw a hook whilst transferring the weight backwards if you are in retreat but the most powerful and therefore preffered way of throwing it is to keep the weight forward, sink the weight and drive the punch from the waist and legs[/QUOTE]

Ive seen it taught as wayfring stats in a few boxing gyms its also how its taught in my main mma gym…but either way the defense showed will not work against a proper hook

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[QUOTE=Frost;1215205]Ive seen it taught as wayfring stats in a few boxing gyms its also how its taught in my main mma gym…but either way the defense showed will not work against a proper hook[/QUOTE]

Interesting, IME from a lead arm the weight normally transfers to the back leg as the punch is thrown simply because it is actually trying to go side to side as you drive off the lead leg to throw it and typically it only happens when the punch is done in air or it misses as otherwise the impact of the blow stops the arm and the transfer of momentum.
Anyway why in your opinion would the defence shown by DP in Hendrick’s second clip not work against a proper hook?

48

[QUOTE=Graham H;1215159]It is not a good idea to try and attack the arm when trying to defend a hook punch. In a controlled environment you can make many things work. In a real fight things are too fast and furious and to think you can make contact with the correct part of the arm at the right time to stop a hook is not safe IMO.

What if the opponent was throwing two hooks or one followed by a right cross, a kick or a grab? You would get yourself into all sorts of problems trying to catch the arm that way.

I tried such an action once against a person who didn’t know any Wing Chun or MMA although he was know to be able to tear it up a bit. I made this mistake of trying to catch the punch with tan da. Although I ended getting the better of him, his leg came up and I nearly took one in the goolash. I later changed my thing to fook sau…even worse. Still the same problem. Now I have a different idea that doesn’t get me into strife.

Many Wing Chun actions that I have been taught in the past and see on many YouTube videos never stop to consider what may be thrown next. The Teacher/Student knows which punch is coming and therefore success is a little more certain. This way of defending a hook is too 50/50 meaning that your opponent has as much chance of making contact as you even though you are throwing what seems to be an attacking action.

In my opinion it’s much better to try and stop the opponent hooking at all. A kick is much more practical than chasing arms. Pre emting an attack is also better if possible. There is a whole strategy in Ving Tsun that limits where the opponent can aim his punches by not presenting yourself as a square on target. I rarely see that in most cases of Ving Tsun.

If you are to remain square, fail to pre empt, fail to throw a kick or offset/upset your opponent then maybe you are going to get hit that day. The chances of getting hit in a fight are a lot greater than not being hit. Realizing that and accepting it is a lot better than trying to stop arms in specific areas when the guy/guys stood in front of you are trying to seriously hurt you by any means necessary.

This whole tan da/fook da nonsense is rubbish. Best way to try is to ask somebody to try and hit you properly not knowing which attacks are going to be thrown. A lot of questions are answered and most people I have contact with suddenly start seriously questioning what Wing Chun they have been taught.[/QUOTE]

Same here…

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[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1215203]Not in any boxing gym or MT camp that I’ve ever trained in. You can throw a hook whilst transferring the weight backwards if you are in retreat but the most powerful and therefore preffered way of throwing it is to keep the weight forward, sink the weight and drive the punch from the waist and legs[/QUOTE]

sounds like what you are experiencing they may call a hook to the body, a body punch, or a 4 or 5 punch. that’s what my coach who is a pro boxer calls it anyway. these are the same mechanics as an uppercut.

the 3 punch, or hook, is different. you will typically experience it right off the 2 punch. the sequence will look like this - multiple jabs to probe a guard, footwork to set up an angle, then a 2 punch straight which either lands or has a lot of crashing energy against what’s blocking it. the range comes in closer like true WCK range or maybe a tad closer, with a forward weight transfer. then the hook moves away from that crash, transfer weight to the back foot and turn. it capitalizes on someone trying to counter the 2 punch immediately, and is timed to catch them coming in.

my understanding anyway, and there’s lots of schools of boxing so your instruction may vary.

what i’m saying is the nature of the sequence and energies have WCK people training the wrong thing. this is why tan sau really isn’t the answer to a hook. every tan sau hook defense I’ve seen the guy doing the tan sau is stepping in to the opponent to block the hook. it’s an intercepting energy catching the punch stepping in and moving forward. but a true hook isn’t moving in and forward, it’s already been there with the 2 punch. it’s now recovering distance by weight transfer away, same direction as the interception movement is going and is depositing a knuckle to the side of the head or chin on the way out.

so with the 2-3 combo, you can tan sau the 2, then look to tan sau the 3 and get caught right in the kisser with it. this is from experience.

oh, but I tan-da and then pursue and the simultaneous defense / offense overwhelms my opponent and he backs off not throwing punches. i’m telling you a good 2-3 - you get clocked with the 3 still.

how do boxers deal with it? make it miss due to foot / head movement or cover at the last minute with hand over ear and elbow high and roll with the force to lessen it.

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1215223]Same here…[/QUOTE]

Still haven’t heard anything by way of a realistic alternative. The post you quoted from Graham (thought I’d removed him from my ignore list but obviously I failed) is ok in terms of using kicks, angles etc to prevent a hook from being thrown but in essence you can say the same about every attack. You can’t always dictate what the opponent will throw despite your best efforts so you have to have some means of defending against a hook if you find yourself the target of one.
I have a couple of other methods of dealing with hooks to the head in addition to the one shown but would be interested in what your particular approaches are?

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1215141]Those fights that people with “special skill” are much more fun to watch. Unfortunately those “special skill” will take longer time to develop. Some modern guys just don’t have the patient. This is why instead of learning some proper throwing skill, people just take the short cut and use “pull guard” instead.[/QUOTE]

People who pull guard generally aren’t doing so because they don’t have the patience to learn to throw. They pull guard because they have spent so many years becoming specialists in the ground game that they want to bring their opponent into their world as fast as possible.

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[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1215243]Still haven’t heard anything by way of a realistic alternative. The post you quoted from Graham (thought I’d removed him from my ignore list but obviously I failed) is ok in terms of using kicks, angles etc to prevent a hook from being thrown but in essence you can say the same about every attack. You can’t always dictate what the opponent will throw despite your best efforts so you have to have some means of defending against a hook if you find yourself the target of one.
I have a couple of other methods of dealing with hooks to the head in addition to the one shown but would be interested in what your particular approaches are?[/QUOTE]

IMHO,
Often we have no choice in our angle and distance…ect. So, it boiled down to can be body take it and what is the min casualty if one cannot handle the momentum. I have never believe in angle alone because wing Chun has direct, roundabout, and recovery , the three basic momentum handling in order to cover the based and do the job. And everyone of these basic is heavily rely of the body or engine. It is certainly not just hand technics and step this way or step that way.

Thus, my view is it is all about the body handling or support, call it a hook , a tan sau, a …ect, those are just technic or norm. Different people use it differently and they have different effect.

So, can the mma , the grapple, the wing Chun utube example works? Sure, but will it work unconditionally, life is complex.

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;1215302]

So, can the mma , the grapple, the wing Chun utube example works? Sure, but will it work unconditionally, life is complex.[/QUOTE]

The boxing, grapple, Muay Thai examples are high percentage moves that are used frequently at all levels.

The wind chun example is not.

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[QUOTE=LaRoux;1215304]The boxing, grapple, Muay Thai examples are high percentage moves that are used frequently at all levels.

The wind chun example is not.[/QUOTE]

IMHO,

Technics are just surface, the force change and momentum handling are the beef.

In wing Chun terminology, on the above utubes examples.

At the instant of contact, or handling momentum. That is the critical point.

The boxing example is called blocking force or or hack Lik, the pre requisite is the body has to be able to take or sustain.

The grappling example is called splitting force or or chat Lik, the prequisite is the body has to be able to hold evenly to divert.

The both wing Chun example is called hitting force or , the prequisite is the body structure has to be able to integrate to make use of the collision.

So, WCK has all these force change type handling ! this is the Jin or handling which is based on momentum or handling or wing Chun. The tool to capture center line.

It is based on physics and causal system.

Everyone of the above handling has a pro and con and greatly depend on the person body development, and situation.

The issue is not wing Chun, the issue is if wcners have develop the wing Chun Kung fu needed. In this case, one can choose which handling is the best in the situation.

And of cause the wingchun example works, because that is what was used in 1850 battle field, versus those who use swing and hook southern fist. Like a bunker missile it penetrate in. IMHO.

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;1215310]
And of cause the wingchun example works, because that is what was used in 1850 battle field, versus those who use swing and hook southern fist. Like a bunker missile it penetrate in. IMHO.[/QUOTE]

Wing chun way = I read that it worked in 1850, so it must work. I’m not going to go out and actually try it out to see if it works.

Boxing, Muay Thai, grappling, MMA way = I can see examples of it working all the time in the present, so it must work. If I can’t see it working all the time, I’m going to go out and try it on live resisting opponents to decide whether or not it works.

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[QUOTE=LaRoux;1215313]Wing chun way = I read that it worked in 1850, so it must work. I’m not going to go out and actually try it out to see if it works.

Boxing, Muay Thai, grappling, MMA way = I can see examples of it working all the time in the present, so it must work. If I can’t see it working all the time, I’m going to go out and try it on live resisting opponents to decide whether or not it works.[/QUOTE]

If you read my post above, I explain the physics of why and how this WCK technics work. Also how WCK also include other technics based on the need of momentum handling.

1850 historically, the particular technic does work. Have people try it? Ofcorse, otherwise, Hawkins, David Peterson will not present it. You think Hawkins and David is going to put something out there which ruin thier credential?

Have I try it? Ofcorse, otherwise I would not be able to tell you the physics above and the body development needed for different momentum handling.

Btw, I sense your bias toward putting down WCK. Since your are not a wcner and don’t like to take things open and equally. Why discuss here in this wing Chun forum? Also, please don’t twist my words and call what you take out of content as wing Chun way. I am ok with your bias and I express my observation.

57

It’s much easier to block a staff that swing at your head than to block a spear that stab at your heart. It’s much easier to block a hook punch than to block a jab or cross. The bending on the elbow joint will give you some extra room to work with.

58

[QUOTE=LaRoux;1215313]Wing chun way = I read that it worked in 1850, so it must work. I’m not going to go out and actually try it out to see if it works.

Boxing, Muay Thai, grappling, MMA way = I can see examples of it working all the time in the present, so it must work. If I can’t see it working all the time, I’m going to go out and try it on live resisting opponents to decide whether or not it works.[/QUOTE]

You obviously read And inteprate what you like to, instead of read and comprehend what I Have posted in full.

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[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1215219]Interesting, IME from a lead arm the weight normally transfers to the back leg as the punch is thrown simply because it is actually trying to go side to side as you drive off the lead leg to throw it and typically it only happens when the punch is done in air or it misses as otherwise the impact of the blow stops the arm and the transfer of momentum.
Anyway why in your opinion would the defence shown by DP in Hendrick’s second clip not work against a proper hook?[/QUOTE]

partly for the reasons wayfring talked about, partly due to the fact no one actually hooks like that, partly due to the fact that at the range a real hook is used you dont have the time to do anything like extend you arm turn you strucutre and react like that (you barely have enough time to cover or duck), and partly because the momentum and power of a proper lead hook will blow through that structure and still tag you, the rotational power combined with leg drive from front to back makes the hook in my opinion much more powerful than the structure used in that clip (assuming you have time to get it in place and thats a big assumption)

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[QUOTE=Frost;1215360]partly for the reasons wayfring talked about, partly due to the fact no one actually hooks like that, partly due to the fact that at the range a real hook is used you dont have the time to do anything like extend you arm turn you strucutre and react like that (you barely have enough time to cover or duck), and partly because the momentum and power of a proper lead hook will blow through that structure and still tag you, the rotational power combined with leg drive from front to back makes the hook in my opinion much more powerful than the structure used in that clip (assuming you have time to get it in place and thats a big assumption)[/QUOTE]

OK so again we can agree to have differing views. From my perspective your hands should already be up so no time needed there and as far as turning the structure or angling it takes less time for me to that than to duck, bob , weave etc its all a question of what you train and keeping the movement as small as possible. Wrt the structure not being strong enough again I’d say depends if you train your positions sufficiently, I’ve used it to stop very heavy shots from guys who know how to throw and who have 7 or 8 stone on me in bodyweight. Anyway, my main interest in this thread is hearing about different approaches rather than explaining/defending what I already do so I’ll shut up now and wait to see if anyone comes up with anything worth reading.