It’s better to move his right arm in an 45 degree outward angle. This way his right arm and his head will have more gape and he can allow his body structure to take the havey punch shocking. [/QUOTE]
Opening up space like that would be another good way to get KTFO by a follow up cross.
At 1.30 of this clip, when he dodges under his opponent’s left hook, he should use his right hand to cover on his opponent’s left elbow joint. This way, not only his opponent won’t change his left hook into back fist on top his head, he can also prevent his opponent from using left reverse head lock (guillotine) on him.
Backfist to the top of the head is hardly a concern. Also there’s no guillotine opening there if it is done the way he shows it.
At 0.30, his right arm is above his opponent’s left arm. It may be difficult to move his right arm under his opponent’s left arm and achieve “waist wrap”. A head lock will be more proper to apply at that time.
It’s called pummeling and it’s done all the time in MMA and grappling.
. At 9.30, if his opponent throws a left hook, since his right hand is already on his opponent’s right shoulder. It’s very easy for him to slide his right arm and get his opponent a reverse head lock (guillotine).
Not as long the the opponent has his head up as was done in the clip.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1215026]The grappling method does NOT rely on a strong body, the position of the arm will cause the wide hook to be parried off, the forward movement gets the defender inside the zone of max danger, the opposite arms checks the opponents other hand AND gets control of one of the opponents prime levers (neck and head), etc, etc.[/QUOTE]
Just think if the defender is one size smaller how easy or difficult to absorb the impact momentum.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1215035]The grappling method uses close in control, which takes away the opponent’s momentum and leverage, making strength and size much less of an issue.
The wing Chun method does not do that, which makes strength and size much more of an issue.[/QUOTE]
Close control still has to deal with momentum so body mass count.
Wing Chun method is shown with a one size smaller body which rely on how good the structure hold to make use of the collision.
Different of body mechanics, different type of art. Depend on what is one develop in ones body. IMHO.
Opening up space like that would be another good way to get KTFO by a follow up cross.
He is on his opponent’s left side door. If his right hand can press on his opponent’s right elbow, his opponent’s left arm is disabled. His opponent’s right arm will be jamed by his opponent’s left arm. There is no way that his oppponent can throw a “cross”. That’s the beauty of the “side door entry”.
Backfist to the top of the head is hardly a concern. Also there’s no guillotine opening there if it is done the way he shows it.
If your opponent uses right hand to block your left elbow (the right counter), you can still use your right hand to remove his right hand and follow by a back fist on top his head. The reverse head lock (guillotine) is the best counter to against a hook punch underneath dodging. The correct dodging is to have your neck to be parallel to the ground. This way, your body doesn’t have to drop so low. To keep your head up while dodge under a hook punch will require your body to drop much lower than you have too.
It’s called pummeling and it’s done all the time in MMA and grappling.
Not if your oponent has a tight left arm waist wrap on you. If he doesn’t want to use head lock (very hard to develop), an over hook will do just fine.
Not as long the the opponent has his head up as was done in the clip.
It depend on how strong your reverse head lock (guillotine) is. A strong head lock can take a full grown cow down to the ground. Again, it’s very hard to develop a strong head lock.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1215049]1. Opening up space like that would be another good way to get KTFO by a follow up cross.
He is on his opponent’s left side door. If his right hand can press on his opponent’s right elbow, his opponent’s left arm is disabled. His opponent’s right arm will be jamed by his opponent’s left arm. There is no way that his oppponent can throw a “cross”. That’s the beauty of the “side door entry”.
Backfist to the top of the head is hardly a concern. Also there’s no guillotine opening there if it is done the way he shows it.
If your opponent uses right hand to block your left elbow (the right counter), you can still use your right hand to remove his right hand and follow by a back fist on top his head. The reverse head lock (guillotine) is the best counter to against a hook punch underneath dodging. The correct dodging is to have your neck to be parallel to the ground. This way, your body doesn’t have to drop so low. To keep your head up while dodge under a hook punch will require your body to drop much lower than you have too.
It’s called pummeling and it’s done all the time in MMA and grappling.
Not if your oponent has a tight left arm waist wrap on you. If he doesn’t want to use head lock (very hard to develop), an over hook will do just fine.
Not as long the the opponent has his head up as was done in the clip.
It depend on how strong your reverse head lock (guillotine) is. A strong head lock can take a full grown cow down to the ground. Again, it’s very hard to develop a strong head lock.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1215049]He is on his opponent’s left side door. If his right hand can press on his opponent’s right elbow, his opponent’s left arm is disabled. His opponent’s right arm will be jamed by his opponent’s left arm. There is no way that his oppponent can throw a “cross”. That’s the beauty of the “side door entry”.[/QUOTE]
I must be missing something here. Are there any examples of people actually using what you are talking about here. Or are you just theorizing on what you think might work?
If your opponent uses right hand to block your left elbow (the right counter), you can still use your right hand to remove his right hand and follow by a back fist on top his head.
Why anyone would think that a backfist to the top of the head would do any damage is just astounding.
The reverse head lock (guillotine) is the best counter to against a hook punch underneath dodging. The correct dodging is to have your neck to be parallel to the ground. This way, your body doesn’t have to drop so low. To keep your head up while dodge under a hook punch will require your body to drop much lower than you have too.
Watch the video again and see the problem with getting the guillotine from there… it’s going to be next to impossible.
Not if your oponent has a tight left arm waist wrap on you. If he doesn’t want to use head lock (very hard to develop), an over hook will do just fine.
Watch the video again. Notice how both inner arms are blocked.
It depend on how strong your reverse head lock (guillotine) is. A strong head lock can take a full grown cow down to the ground. Again, it’s very hard to develop a strong head lock.
You can have the strongest guillotine out there, but the opponent’s head still needs to be down. Watch the clip again and then please explain how in the heck the smaller guy is even going be able to get up to the height to even get a wrap for the guillotine.
I must be missing something here. Are there any examples of people actually using what you are talking about here. Or are you just theorizing on what you think might work?
Boxers do that all the time. If your opponent has left side forward, in order to avoid his strong right cross or right hook, you keep moving toward to his left side (your right side).
Why anyone would think that a backfist to the top of the head would do any damage is just astounding.
2 XingYi masters challenged the XingYi instructor who taught the Nanking Central MA Institute. The challenger used a Beng Chuan to attack. The XingYi instructor used his left hand to downward parry the straight punch followed by a back fist on top of the challenger’s head. The challenger dropped all the way down to the ground. If your opponent’s neck is strong than your arm, it’s time to put your tail between your legs and run like hell.
Watch the video again and see the problem with getting the guillotine from there… it’s going to be next to impossible.
If guillotine is your “bread and butter”, you will always make it work no matter how hard that your opponent may resists.
Watch the video again. Notice how both inner arms are blocked.
If your arm is
above your opponent’s arm, you should use head lock or over hook.
below your opponent’s arm, you should use waist wrap or under hook.
If your opponent has basic grappling skill, he won’t let your arm to move above his arm and then move below his arm as if his arm doesn’t exist.
You can have the strongest guillotine out there, but the opponent’s head still needs to be down. Watch the clip again and then please explain how in the heck the smaller guy is even going be able to get up to the height to even get a wrap for the guillotine.
The head lock and reverse head lock are used by a tall person to against a short person or someone with the same height. If your opponent’s neck is stronger than your arm, you will have problem.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1215106]Boxers do that all the time. If your opponent has left side forward, in order to avoid his strong right cross or right hook, you keep moving toward to his left side (your right side). [/QUOTE]
Really? Show one example of a boxer weaving under the hook and then pressing on the elbow to stop the cross.
XingYi masters challenged the XingYi instructor who taught the Nanking Central MA Institute. The challenger used a Beng Chuan to attack. The XingYi instructor used his left hand to downward parry the straight punch followed by a back fist on top of the challenger’s head. The challenger dropped all the way down to the ground.
More anecdotal BS.
If guillotine is your “bread and butter”, you will always make it work no matter how hard that your opponent may resists.
You are living in a fantasy world if you think that.
If your opponent has basic grappling skill, he won’t let your arm to move above his arm and then move below his arm as if his arm doesn’t exist.
Exactly. Which makes what you are talking about pretty much unworkable yet again.
The head lock and reverse head lock are used by a tall person to against a short person or someone with the same height. If your opponent’s neck is stronger than your arm, you will have problem.
It has very little to do with strength and mostly do with the technique and knowing what position to use it in.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1215081]I must be missing something here. Are there any examples of people actually using what you are talking about here. Or are you just theorizing on what you think might work?
Not sure, but I think YKW is talking the concepts shown in this vid. I don’t use it exactly like how the guy in the vid does, but I’ve used something similar a couple times when I sparred with a muay thai friend. I tried to teach it to him but he had a difficult time getting the movement down.
Not sure, but I think YKW is talking the concepts shown in this vid. I don’t use it exactly like how the guy in the vid does, but I’ve used something similar a couple times when I sparred with a muay thai friend. I tried to teach it to him but he had a difficult time getting the movement down.[/QUOTE]
The “(Pian) - Head circling” is also commonly used in Judo. When your opponent gets you an upper collar hold, you can move your head under his arm, over to the other side. This way his upper collar hold will lost effect on you. Since his elbow is free, you have to put some restriction on his elbow mobility. This is similiar to the MT neck tie but Judo upper colar hold usually use more straight elbow to hold opponent back. Not like the MT neck tie use the forearm to against opponent’s body which doesn’t give his opponent much room to move his head under it.
Oneday in UFC when someone dodges under a hook punch, his opponent gets an sideway elbow on the side of his face, people will start to pay attention on this technique. Until then, we can only assume if it hasn’t been used in UFC, it must be an unrealistic technique.
hi guys i never ever number one rule use tan da to counter a hook , first you cant always tell what angle the punch , is coming from personally i prefer using my punching arm to counter the hook and the Bruce lee pak sau back up or bill sau tan da is a pretty dangerous move considering the situation i c onside that in some situations it will work but against a good boxer or choy lay fut guy no way Russ
Oneday in UFC when someone dodges under a hook punch, his opponent gets an sideway elbow on the side of his face, people will start to pay attention on this technique. Until then, we can only assume if it hasn’t been used in UFC, it must be an unrealistic technique.[/QUOTE]
There are those who would consider these "spinning techniques to be unrealistic, but since they have been used in mma…
Those fights that people with “special skill” are much more fun to watch. Unfortunately those “special skill” will take longer time to develop. Some modern guys just don’t have the patient. This is why instead of learning some proper throwing skill, people just take the short cut and use “pull guard” instead.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1215141]Those fights that people with “special skill” are much more fun to watch. Unfortunately those “special skill” will take longer time to develop. Some modern guys just don’t have the patient. This is why instead of learning some proper throwing skill, people just take the short cut and use “pull guard” instead.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree. Some techniques are just easier to pick up than others. Nothing wrong with that. But it doesn’t mean the techniques that may be trickier to learn for most people aren’t valid techniques. Besides you can’t just talk techniques alone. They go hand in hand with the strategy and tactics that go into setting them up.
[QUOTE=Bernard;1215143]I totally agree. Some techniques are just easier to pick up than others. Nothing wrong with that. But it doesn’t mean the techniques that may be trickier to learn for most people aren’t valid techniques. Besides you can’t just talk techniques alone. They go hand in hand with the strategy and tactics that go into setting them up.[/QUOTE]
Agree! It’s not just one technique. It’s the whole package deal. Sometime in order to be good at one technique, one needs to learn many techniques to support that single technique.
If every UFC fighter fights the same way, people will get bored quickly.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1215026] the forward movement gets the defender inside the zone of max danger, [/QUOTE]
IMO this should be true of the Wing Chun footwork also (no comment on the HC vid, he has his own way of doing things) only difference being that the hand the grappler places on the shoulder / chest and subsequently converts into an underhook / body wrap would be striking in the way I train.
This clip shows pretty much how I train to defend hooks (even though it is a different lineage - who’d have thought…). Intercept the line of the attack early in its arc and close the distance, keep the hands tight and occupy the space rather than chasing the arms.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1215147]This clip shows pretty much how I train to defend hooks (even though it is a different lineage - who’d have thought…). Intercept the line of the attack early in its arc and close the distance, keep the hands tight and occupy the space rather than chasing the arms.[/QUOTE]
Same method used in non-WC TCMA system too. It’s called “(Xie Da) - diagonal strike” instead of Tan Pai Shou. Your right palm strike diagonally to your opponent’s right shoulder. You keep your right side open to invite a punch so you can “wrap his punching arm”.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1215042]Just comment the techniques and nothing to do with the instructor in the clip.
At 0.27, he uses “comb hair (crazy monkey)” to block the left hook. If his opponent’s punch is powerful and also since he doesn’t have gloves on, his opponent’s left hook could go through his right arm block, knock his right arm down along with his head. It’s better to move his right arm in an 45 degree outward angle. This way his right arm and his head will have more gape and he can allow his body structure to take the shocking from that strong punch.
At 1.30, when he dodges under his opponent’s left hook, he should use his right hand to cover on his opponent’s left elbow joint. This way, he can prevent his opponent from doing:
left elbow on his head.
left arm reverse head lock (guillotine) on his neck.
At 0.30, his right arm is above his opponent’s left arm. If his opponent’s left arm wraps on his waist ASAP, he won’t have any space to move his right arm under his opponent’s left arm and achieve “waist wrap” at that moment. A head lock will be more proper to apply.
At 9.30, his right side is open (leak). He may do that on purpose to invite his opponent’s left punh. He may also don’t care whether his opponent may throw a left hook or not. Since his right hand is already on his opponent’s right shoulder. It’s very easy for him to slide his right arm and get his opponent a reverse head lock (guillotine). This will not only counter his opponent’s left hook punch, it also force his striker opponent to play his favor grappling game.
A comment on all this what he is showing are boxing specific not MMA
He doesn’t use crazy monkey he is simply shelling he is showing it without gloves, with gloves the gap isn’t there, if it was MMA and he was doing crazey monkey the hand would be pulled back more the gap made smaller and nothing would get through but the elbow would still be in the middle
Secondly when he goes under the hook he is talking to the camera, in reality his hand would be up and none of what you mention would happen, and the guillotine is never going to come into play there because he is bending at the legs and not the waist the guillotine is simply not an option
Thirdly a general point on the thread the wing chun example is not going to stop a proper hook at all, would people please do these demos against boxers who can actually hook?