My first martial art for many years has been wing chun. During the past year, I’ve started choy lay fut in order to branch out a bit. But I’m having some problems combining them. In wing chun, the centerline theory has always been drilled into my head over and over again. We’re taught to keep a tight structure and to not open up. I’ve also studied western boxing, so before I started choy lay fut, I was doing more of a jeet kune do approach. I used the footwork and punches of boxing along with wing chun. But boxing blends well with wing chun and can maintain the centerline. With choy lay fut however, a lot of the stances and techniques are very wide and seem to go against centerline theory. For example, one technique we practice is going into a unicorn stance (twist stance) with a straight punch and then stepping forward into a bow stance with a gwa-sow combination. It’s very powerful and effective, but combining it with wing chun is proving a bit difficult. Should I shorten the techniques a bit to make it tighter and more compatible? I know the techniques of choy lay fut can be used long or short. Or should I just practice them as 2 entirely different and separate arts?
I’d say you don’t have the back-round in CLF to combine them,
the foundation of the system is learning to generating whipping power thru the whole body (amongst many other things)
often the movemnets are big at first, so you can learn the “big circle”
but we fight on the centerline, no doubt.
yeah i agree. spend more time in dissecting your CLF and you will see just how much in common it does have with many martial arts. it also relies on the skill or knowledge of your sifu.
to the outsider, clf is all wide and outside. to the seasoned clf player…no we’re not. we see it and accept that others may not.
but the two are and can be pretty good together.
[QUOTE=hulkout;880611]My first martial art for many years has been wing chun. During the past year, I’ve started choy lay fut in order to branch out a bit. But I’m having some problems combining them. In wing chun, the centerline theory has always been drilled into my head over and over again. We’re taught to keep a tight structure and to not open up. I’ve also studied western boxing, so before I started choy lay fut, I was doing more of a jeet kune do approach. I used the footwork and punches of boxing along with wing chun. But boxing blends well with wing chun and can maintain the centerline. With choy lay fut however, a lot of the stances and techniques are very wide and seem to go against centerline theory. For example, one technique we practice is going into a unicorn stance (twist stance) with a straight punch and then stepping forward into a bow stance with a gwa-sow combination. It’s very powerful and effective, but combining it with wing chun is proving a bit difficult. Should I shorten the techniques a bit to make it tighter and more compatible? I know the techniques of choy lay fut can be used long or short. Or should I just practice them as 2 entirely different and separate arts?[/QUOTE]
Not all WC is centerline. Some are “central line”
Phil
Thats a Theory of TCWC…Whats the centerline and whats central line for U?
Steeeve
[QUOTE=Steeeve;880662]Phil
Thats a Theory of TCWC…Whats the centerline and whats central line for U?
Steeeve[/QUOTE]
The central line is like a fan shaped area emanating from the centerline. The center line is constant as it divides the body down the middle front of the body.
The central line can be anywhere within the confines of the “fan” shape. In the WC first form the central line is defined at the lower and upper aspects by the crossing of the arms.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/theory.asp
[QUOTE=Satori Science;880631]I’d say you don’t have the back-round in CLF to combine them,
the foundation of the system is learning to generating whipping power thru the whole body (amongst many other things)
often the movemnets are big at first, so you can learn the “big circle”
but we fight on the centerline, no doubt.[/QUOTE]
What’s the bio-mechanics involved in CLF whipping power?
Do you have any excercises to train whipping power in CLF?
When I first started choy lay fut, I learned the stance and waist exercises. You put your hands on your waist with your shoulders rolled forward. You then run through the different stances combining them with maximum rotation of the upper body. Eventually, you add punches to these movements. This is the foundation level training to train your waist and whipping power. I was told that no matter how advanced I get eventually, I should always do these exercises.
[QUOTE=hulkout;880851]When I first started choy lay fut, I learned the stance and waist exercises. You put your hands on your waist with your shoulders rolled forward. You then run through the different stances combining them with maximum rotation of the upper body. Eventually, you add punches to these movements. This is the foundation level training to train your waist and whipping power. I was told that no matter how advanced I get eventually, I should always do these exercises.[/QUOTE]
Are there any clips on youtube of CLF waist and stance training?
When you rotate in CLF, do you initiate the movement from the hip like in western boxing or the waist?
Phil
If I understood the central line is not in reference from the opponent …I mean a plan who connnect the centerline of the opponent with my centerline …
the fan could be a box since the opening have two point in the lower and two point and the upper when we do the cross arms....low and hight.....thats could definite the 4 gates.....
Steeve
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;880853]Are there any clips on youtube of CLF waist and stance training?
When you rotate in CLF, do you initiate the movement from the hip like in western boxing or the waist?[/QUOTE]
If you look up “Ng Lun Ma”, that is the form that we learned right away to train the waist. But as you progress and learn more techniques, I’ve found that it’s a good idea to practice all movements in this manner before adding punches and kicks. It will make them faster, more powerful, and effective. The power is sort of generated from your feet all the way up to the top, kind of like links of a chain. Actually, it’s the same way in western boxing as well. Like when you throw a left hook, your lead foot pivots and then your rear foot hits the ground as you make contact putting all your weight behind it. As I said earlier, I’ve only been learning choy lay fut for just over a year, so I’m sure others may be able to give some more insight. But there is something to be said for universal movement. After all, we all have only 2 arms and 2 legs. The power generation and weight shifting I learned in western boxing can also be applied in choy lay fut. The mechanics of a hook can also be used for sow choy.
[QUOTE=Steeeve;880856]Phil
If I understood the central line is not in reference from the opponent …I mean a plan who connnect the centerline of the opponent with my centerline …
the fan could be a box since the opening have two point in the lower and two point and the upper when we do the cross arms....low and hight.....thats could definite the 4 gates.....
Steeve[/QUOTE]
From what I understand the central line and center line is just a concept for understanding the proper execution of wing chun techniques and strikes.
Not so much something you can combine with Choy Lay Fut, it’s like a method for understanding Wing Chun, and your opponent in relation to Wing chun, specifically. You could potentially use the concepts to change existing choy lay fut techniques, but to stay strictly within those lines for your fighting, would limit yourself.
But Phil may have something to say about that. I haven’t been in a TWC school for a long time.
a lot of the stances and techniques are very wide and seem to go against centerline theory.
See, thats an issue if you want to combine styles. Every style has their own interpretation of what is the most effective way of fighting. The key is to pick up the principles and theories, and understand what works for yourself. If you see an opening on an opponent to attack their center line, go for it. The Center line theory can help you train for it. If you’re in a position to attack an opponent’s central line, go for it. The central line theory will help you train for it. These theories can be trained and understood and work, without conflicting, as long as you understand when and how they should be applied. TWC practictioners try to stay attacking the central line, most WC guys tend to go straight for the center line. Neither is more correct, simply different ways to engage an opponent. But what happens when the opponent understands the center line better than you, and you’ve only trained center line? Sort’ve like an outboxer who goes up against a better outboxer… boxing has shown it’s good to be well rounded, engage your opponent’s weakness. If you’re good at outboxing and infighting, and your opponent is a stellar outboxer with longer arms than you, then it may be better to go on the inside…
Not that you’re probably ever going to run into an opponent who has any idea what center or central line means or can properly defend it… but personally I enjoy training for the best possible opponent I could ever go up against. Not because I’ll ever go up against them, just because I want to have as complete a knowledge of fighting as possible.
[QUOTE=JGTevo;881016]
Not so much something you can combine with Choy Lay Fut, it’s like a method for understanding Wing Chun, and your opponent in relation to Wing chun, specifically. You could potentially use the concepts to change existing choy lay fut techniques, but to stay strictly within those lines for your fighting, would limit yourself.[/QUOTE]
On this point I disagree, we also use the “central line” concept as the core of our fighting theory and I am sure the Brothers from Chan Yon Fa in San Diego & Sifu Frank from SF will agree in their own way. More like a method for understanding striking/kicking and the proximal relationship to the opponent.
[QUOTE=JGTevo;881016]
Not that you’re probably ever going to run into an opponent who has any idea what center or central line means or can properly defend it… but personally I enjoy training for the best possible opponent I could ever go up against. Not because I’ll ever go up against them, just because I want to have as complete a knowledge of fighting as possible.[/QUOTE]
On this I completely agree, couldn’t have said it better.
More like a method for understanding striking/kicking and the proximal relationship to the opponent.
I guess I should’ve been more specific about it, but what you said above is part of what I was taught in TWC. The Central line theory factors into the footwork, the striking, the techniques, and the application versus an opponent.
[QUOTE=Steeeve;880856]Phil
If I understood the central line is not in reference from the opponent …I mean a plan who connnect the centerline of the opponent with my centerline …
the fan could be a box since the opening have two point in the lower and two point and the upper when we do the cross arms....low and hight.....thats could definite the 4 gates.....
Steeve[/QUOTE]
I’ll upload a video clip to youtube to explain. It’ll be a lot easier.
I don’t use much of the “center/central line theory” but more of a general gate theory approach I think. Open/Close/Inside/Outside kinda deal. Nothing too fancy but helps me get the jist of things.
Stuff like continuous chop choys, chuen ahn choys, yum chop, etc can all play to your “centerline” approach. Some CLF guys heavily favor throwing chop choys over the other stuff. Buk Sing guys tend to favor the side-body stance more than Hung Sing guys. My Sifu seems to favor Gwa-Sau-Kup over continuous Chop Choys.
At the end of the day it’s all about YOUR personal interpretation. Everybody has their own preferences.
I up loaded a clip explaining our central line. I even showed “one” defense against a Pek Choy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdOmnxmnfv8
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;881187]I up loaded a clip explaining our central line. I even showed “one” defense against a Pek Choy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdOmnxmnfv8[/QUOTE]
if you honestly teach to your students a counter like that for a clf “diagonal/round” punch, i pray on their behalf that they neva cross paths with a clf fighter
you have alot to learn bout clf ppl and our “round” punches
Thank Phil
Really good explainaition …Now i know whats you mean about the centerline and the central line
thats could be a theory with triangle (2 triangle one with the base are our shoulders and the apex the centerline(when we punch in the centerline )....the other one is reverse triangle thats the central line we punch at the 2 point of the base of the triangle....the apex of the triangle is our centerline...
Sorry my english is not very good ....
thats the theory of relativity Einstein …all depends of the reference…:)centerline closed triangle or the central line or the fan of the open triangle
Steeeve
…
The thought of combining the two styles together is ridiculous and somewhat offensive if you ask me. They are both completely different in all aspects. Not to mention the fact that historically there’s never been much good blood between differing practitioners of the two styles.
And Sifu Redmond’s demonstration of how to block against a “Choy Lay Fut diagonal strike” is laughable at best… Maybe if the strike was moving extremely slow and weightless that Tahn Sao might just do the trick.
But I can safely say that if swung properly a strong Sao Choi would easily destroy a block like that… No question!
And any CLF guy throwing sao choi’s the way that Sifu Redmond explained deserve’s to get knocked out.