Even though the physical characteristics of these two arts are different are any of their principles and concepts similar?
shaolin dynasty question
Re: CLF and WC… quite different principles of structure and dynamics is involved. I have seen very good CLF- Tat Mau Wong and his late teacher and Doc Fai Wong and I am familar with pretty
good examples of wing chun and have a fairly decent understanding of wing chun principles and their applications.
I respect TCMA so I dont put down other styles reflexively- but I dont waiver in my confidence in wing chun. But wing chun and clf are two entirely different things.Cheers,
Yuanfen
<www.azwingchun.com>
Wing chun vs CLF
In my understanding many styles of Wing-Chun are very systematic,in their teachings, strictly adhering to certain principles and Techniques. Not leaving much room to develop alot of self expression of movements and techniqes. Wheras in CLF or Hung-Gar it is just the opposite while having certain concepts and principles,these systems encourage self expression. Just the enormous array of techniqes and movements in these systems allows for two practitioners of the same art to adapt the techniques that work for a particular persons size,speed,strength,etc.
Not that I am Knocking Wing-chun, I believe Wing-chun can be used effectivley in a shorter period of time, and I believe that was the reasoning behind it’s conception, to teach revolutionaires to fight in the shortest time possible.
However I think in the long run it is possible to achieve a higher level in the CLF or Hung-Gar.
Then again,some people may respond better to a more sytematic system, but was’nt that what Bruce Lee didn’t like about Wing-Chun? And at a certain point he had to rise above the regimention to achieve self expression of his art,or Jeet Kune Do?
I don’t mean to offend you Wing-Chun people,my knowledge of your art is somewhat limited,but this is what I’ve gathered over the years. I also beleive that a high level of martial arts can be achieved from either system,while Hung-Gar works for me Wing Chun may be better for some one else!
‘‘I don’t mean to offend you Wing-Chun people,my knowledge of your art is somewhat limited’’
yep, well that just about somes it up.
fancey writing that long winded response only to finish it with that.
vts
“In my understanding many styles of Wing-Chun are very systematic,in their teachings, strictly adhering to certain principles and Techniques. Not leaving much room to develop alot of self expression of movements and techniqes.”
Hmmm… At first I thought you were a *****… but it’s not completly your fault… I’ve also seen a few WC schools like that. And I take it by “develop alot of self expression of movements and techniqes” you don’t mean to forget the principles and theory behind your art and dance around like a fairy.
The WC I learn teaches a method of movment, useing your body to it’s full potential and acheving the maximum amount power in each movment. So i guess there’s lots of room for “self expression of movements and techniqes” because once you can apply the WC power, it doesn’t matter witch technique you do… I could even learn CLF and make it effective 
alright guys cool off. I wanted to disscuss any similarities there might be between the two. Not which is better and what lacks from either.
For instance I noticed both talk allot about controlling the other persons root. This si pretty standard in CMA but I was wondering what other similarities there are(physical movement aside).
CLF is more of a long range style, however we do have a variety of short range techniques.
Wing Chun is a short range style.
In the past there was a “CLF vs. Wing Chun Rivalary” which was brought in part from the various difference in fighting principals.
So as far as your question goes, they are not very similar. Different fighting theories and power generation principles.
Peace.
Shaolindynasty
There is a Chinese saying, “10,000 fists have one principle”, so on the conceptual level, the principles for fighting between the two arts are much the same, even though the outward expression and the technical emphasis, especially at the beginners level, are very different.
Here are some similarities straight off the top of my head, I am sure there are many more:
- Maintain balance.
- Seek your opponent’s weakness and cover up your own.
- Use softness to overcome hardness when appropriate.
- Use the straight line to break the circle when the opportunity allows.
- Every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
- Generate power from your body mass.
- Maximise speed and accuracy.
- Minimise your mistakes.
Nice for a change to get a discussion to look at the similarities rather than the differences between WC and CLF.
JosephX
ExtraJoseph- THANKS!!! at least somebody got what I was trying to say.
One I can think of is it seems both like to use rapid strikes to finish the opponent.
Both are know for a no nonsense approach to combat.
They both are agressive.
Another one I missed out:
- Avoid using force against force.
ExtraJoseph, very good comparison.
I find there are some similarties between the style also. For instance using one hand to finish the job, similar to fencing. To strike your opponent when they are at a disadvantage, example: To counter your opponent when they are fully extended.
I also agree with joseph about the similarties in using straight lines to counter a curved line or even your opponents straight line attack.
There are even similarties in the sticky hands and our oi leen sao and loi leem sao, found in my lineages Buddha Palm form, and also our 5 wheel fist form.
They both favor simplicity, that’s for sure.
Joe
Not sure about CLF but what about striking and blocking at the same time?
What about stop hits?
My own experience is that CLF is good for bridging the gap between yourself and your opponent. Its not so much long range as it is “jump range.” Meaning that in a lot of techniques you literally jump into your opponent with your arms swinging.
The effect is quite overpowering. Its kind of like a freight train coming at you.
This is CLF at least at the elementary level. This is how “newbies” spar and I think that this was the idea when CLF was designed for Civil War.
However, at the higher levels you see things become a bit more intricate with Chi Na, pressure point strikes, subtle trips and throws.
My understanding is that at the highest level CLF becomes a “stick and follow” martial art kind of like Taiji but with its own unique style.
Its seems to me that Wing Chun kind of starts at the “stick and follow” level. Its not that Wing Chun is necessarily higher level but it definitely starts with the intention of “sticking and following.”
In Wing Chun this simple idea is then practiced over and over again until it is absolutely perfected. This makes it a bit easier to learn.
The advantage is that CLF has a larger repertoire of techniques we can “jump in” and barrage you, grab you and trip you up or follow you around until a opening emerges. We have a lot more to learn, but also a lot more to “master.”
This is just my two cents and I in no way represent myself as an authority on either of these arts. Just a student.
Not sure about CLF but what about striking and blocking at the same time?
A very simple concept, just one that takes time to do effectively.
Although if you watch tournaments or most fights, there rarely is blocking going on. It is more of a strike vs strike mentality.
nospam.
Yes of course CLF blocks & hits together, as i would say most all gung fu styles do. One eg. is the Gwa choy a hanging backfist straight down at a 45 degree angle. When a straight punch is thrown, the CLF player aggressively charges in with his stance & throwing his waist into the attack to gain momentum.(power & speed flowing) Just as his about to march in & throw his waist into the attack he also throws his arm (backfist) in conjunction with his waist & stance. So the backfist is like a unstopable force, the forearm (kiu sau) smashes the attackers arm & continues smashing the opponent in the face with the back of the hand.(knuckes) The CLF player then useing the momentum launches a powerful punch with the rear hand (cheurng naan choy) & then again with the opposite hand with another technique etc… The CLF player is always flowing & useing his waist to coil like a snake & then releasing with great power, always continuous. Though the power generation is different to wing chun, they both overwhelm their opponents with a barrage of hits. CLF mainly uses its waist for power & Wing Chun uses its elbow. This is only from my limited experience in both, i did WC only for a year & now im going on my 10th month of CLF. But im sure in the latter stages they would have many similarities in combat, even earlier, the power generation is just different. Fu Pow is right about marching in aggressively with ur arms swinging, the backfist is done the same, one thing to know is that the arm must be long/extended to connect. The Gwa is just 1 eg. in the latter stages CLF has many short range techniques, my sifu showed me a few & they are very fast & powerful so from ur fist look they will look very different but deep down a lot of the ideas are very similiar. I have heard that the panther mostly always attacks even when blocking, it slides over the opponents arm then hits. Blocking & hitting in unison & CLF has a lot of panther. I would say this panther technique is a little similiar to the Tan sau of Wing Chun.
With the stopping/blocking of hits CLF has a very big range of techs. to choose from & it depends on the situation what to use. All CLF players should condition there arms/bridges & they should be like iron bridges. So just by blocking u will destroy the opponents limbs or u can use a circular defence & use the opponents force against him disrupting his balance & taking his centre then taking advantage. This is similiar to Wing Chun. There is also some blocks that u use ur waist to gain momentum & then strike. As i said b4 this is only from my limited experience & CLF has a very big arsenal of techniques to choose from.
Also i have heard that CLF has sticky hands like Wing Chun, maybe there not the same but i would think that the idea is the same in what their trying to acomplish. Soft/Hard working in unison.(Yin/Yang) Although WC teaches this almost straight away & CLF teaches it in the latter stages.
They are both great MA systems of SHAOLIN.
Centre line theory !
So can anyone speak of CLF’s theory (if any) on controlling the centre line. This seems to be a big focus of WT and other styles eg YKM Pakmei Dragon . Sth Mantis. This to me seems the core of where the principles of the two systems can be similar and/or different.
VT- please don’t jump down my throat if I said something inaccurate !!!
Fu Pow says
Its seems to me that Wing Chun kind of starts at the “stick and follow” level. Its not that Wing Chun is necessarily higher level but it definitely starts with the intention of “sticking and following.”
Not quite true. Good wing chun can start at any level.
Conceptually, wing chun prepares the person- not a slave to
distance, technique or even sticking (best not to infer dogmatic sticking from elementary perceptions of chi sao).
Many styles appear to be more technique oriented than good wing chun.
Biu Ji,
CLF also has a centre line theory. Since we tended to fight side on, the imaginary centre line is located not at the front part of the body but along the one side facing our opponent.
By dropping the elbow, using the knee and having the yang hand reaching out and the yin hand held back, we reduce the surface area open to attack considerably. Our opponent has to go around our side on front to attack the weak spots located along the Ren Mai and Du Mai centre line of the body.
JosephX
Extrajoseph!!
Advantages and disadvantages to every postion ! Side (horse) certainly does reduce the target area but also reduces your striking capability due to the "yin " hand as you put it is further back and has further distance to travel when striking. Though the horse also gives you more distance with the leading (yang) hand.
How much of CLF techniques are side on? What % would you say ?