Combining Wing Chun With Choy Lay Fut

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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[QUOTE=Charn Fu Gerk;881603]The thought of combining the two styles together is ridiculous and somewhat offensive if you ask me. They are both completely different in all aspects. Not to mention the fact that historically there’s never been much good blood between differing practitioners of the two styles.

And Sifu Redmond’s demonstration of how to block against a “Choy Lay Fut diagonal strike” is laughable at best… Maybe if the strike was moving extremely slow and weightless that Tahn Sao might just do the trick.
But I can safely say that if swung properly a strong Sao Choi would easily destroy a block like that… No question!

And any CLF guy throwing sao choi’s the way that Sifu Redmond explained deserve’s to get knocked out.[/QUOTE]
Guys like you crack me up. Though I speak Chinese I’m not. I’m an American and I could care less who hated who back in Hong Kong. I use what works regardless of where it comes from. You’re living in the past if you’re Chinese. If you’re not then you’re simply delusional. I will continue to share with my CLF friends and martial artists of other styles to better our fighting skills. My demo didn’t show all the aspects such as a grab to Pek Choi etc. It was primarily to explain the Central Line. I know from personal experience the power of CLF strikes.
My intent is not to offend anyone. And btw, I’ve fought CLF people in the streets of Chinatown NY on a few occasions. I’m not only a WC person. I practically lived in Chinatown and have trained with VERY competent CLF and other stylists for 38 years. I’ve had guys come at me with powerful Pek choi, make contact with my arms and the fight was over because of my forearm training. I have much respect for CLF. It’s a a very good fighting style. That’s why it’s the preferred style in most Chinatowns in North America. Do you happen to live in or near NYC/NJ/Philly? I’m always open to meeting other Chinese stylists.
p.s. That was a Biu Sao, not a Tan Sao and it doesn’t just stay there. :wink:

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;881187]I up loaded a clip explaining our central line. I even showed “one” defense against a Pek Choy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdOmnxmnfv8[/QUOTE]

Really Excellent Clip! A lot of great info there, you have a deep understanding of your style, very insightful.

I would say again, that the way i learned my CLF was very much based on the principle of Center Line, but after watching that clip think that there are some major differences between how you would use the “central line” concept and the center line theory as i learned it. Two sister styles based off common ideas that have taken their own evolution and created unique theory.

I’m sure that there is a variety of possibility for mixing the style, i personally have no interest in it. and doubt that one would ever get to the point in fighting ware they weren’t just doing CLF with wing chun shape or vise versa. I’m sure some people could get there but it would be a major investment to create something unique.

When ever i train in other styles its either to learn skills like certain kinds of trapping or knife fighting that i don’t already have or to inform my CLF.

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[QUOTE=Charn Fu Gerk;881603]The thought of combining the two styles together is ridiculous and somewhat offensive if you ask me. They are both completely different in all aspects. Not to mention the fact that historically there’s never been much good blood between differing practitioners of the two styles.

And Sifu Redmond’s demonstration of how to block against a “Choy Lay Fut diagonal strike” is laughable at best… Maybe if the strike was moving extremely slow and weightless that Tahn Sao might just do the trick.
But I can safely say that if swung properly a strong Sao Choi would easily destroy a block like that… No question!

And any CLF guy throwing sao choi’s the way that Sifu Redmond explained deserve’s to get knocked out.[/QUOTE]
So let me get this straight. You think it’s ridiculous to combine 2 styles together because they’re different and it’s offensive because of the bad blood between them in the past. What the hell relevance does that have nowadays? And as far as combining styles, you do realize that every style out there in existence is a combination of something, don’t you? Choy Lay Fut itself is a combination of several different arts. So don’t tell me about the purity of Choy Lay Fut when
it was never “pure” to begin with. Every martial art is open to interpretation from the student and every decent instructor will encourage this. And lastly, Vince Lacey who runs the BukSing Choy Lay Fut school in Fremont himself does both Choy Lay Fut and Wing Chun. And so does Shane Lacey. But I suppose you’re more qualified to speak on behalf of Choy Lay Fut than they are. Take your close minded attitude and blow it out your ass!

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The thought of combining the two styles together is ridiculous and somewhat offensive if you ask me.

It’d be a good idea if you contemplate the meaning of “Martial Artist”. What is an “Artist”? Someone who expresses oneself. If someone was taught how to paint like Van Gogh, and he painted only what Van Gogh painted, that would not be self-expression. If he painted his own paintings only in the way Van Gogh painted, only the idea of what to paint would be self-expression. If he took the techniques he used and expanded upon them, that would be complete self-expression.

Don’t be afraid to express yourself. Even if the result comes out to be “less than”, it will still be honest, and you will grow as a martial artist because you at least tried.

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Well

the used of biu sau for blocking the sau choi or the hook punch is good …
the tansau could be good if you use the dropping tansau (like in the bong sau to tan sau in the form)

 but the most important is to used this parry or block for jamming the roundhouse orhook punch I mean intercept at the point zero ....not at is maximum 

and to block it between the elbow and the shoulder ....if you go for the elbow to the wrist its too late ...better is to evade the strike with footwork ,duking or wave in wave out ...like a boxer

The chuin nau of CLF is very good for block the sau choi …you intercept and cover the arm …beetween the elbow and shoulder…

  biu sau is the same in WC

next the sau choi of CLF is a punch used like a finishing technique in a combo....thats very hard to block it ...thats a K.o punch.... for finishing ...

like a jab right cross follow by a hook 

you dont use the sau choi like a attack you use it at the end of a combo gwa choi ,chaap choi ,sau choi... the steak is already tender you finish him

Steeve

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[QUOTE=hulkout;881727]So let me get this straight. You think it’s ridiculous to combine 2 styles together because they’re different and it’s offensive because of the bad blood between them in the past. What the hell relevance does that have nowadays? And as far as combining styles, you do realize that every style out there in existence is a combination of something, don’t you? Choy Lay Fut itself is a combination of several different arts. So don’t tell me about the purity of Choy Lay Fut when
it was never “pure” to begin with. Every martial art is open to interpretation from the student and every decent instructor will encourage this. And lastly, Vince Lacey who runs the BukSing Choy Lay Fut school in Fremont himself does both Choy Lay Fut and Wing Chun. And so does Shane Lacey. But I suppose you’re more qualified to speak on behalf of Choy Lay Fut than they are. Take your close minded attitude and blow it out your ass![/QUOTE]

GM Vince Lacey has said in the past that he teaches clf and wc as 2 seperate styles. he doesnt teach them combined. so don’t start making up crap.

yes pretty much every style is a combination of a few styles, but it took certain ppl of certain skill, to blend them together to become one, and unique.
clf is a combination of choy, li and fut gar. but we look nothing like the original 3 families. CLF and WC are 2 very contradicting styles

so stick ur bruce lee wannab mma bs up ur mma a$$.

Till this day, wing chun hong kong schools that ive visited, and witnessed with my own eyes, till this fkn day are still trying to teach defesne against charp choi and sao choi.

my ancestors loved to fight wing chun practioners. my elders loved it also. so for us to show no gratitude, and respect and go out to learn wing chun is like turning around and spitting on their face. that is the relevance nowadays. i would neva spit on my family, or my history

the passion for fighting wing chun practioners flows through all of our bloods.

so the thought of combining clf and wc also absolutely disgusts me.

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[QUOTE=chasincharpchui;881882]GM Vince Lacey has said in the past that he teaches clf and wc as 2 seperate styles. he doesnt teach them combined. so don’t start making up crap.

so stick ur bruce lee wannab mma bs up ur mma a$$. [/QUOTE]

Of course he would teach it that way because they are 2 separate classes at his school. But he himself practices both styles so obviously their will be some blending of the 2 in the way that he practices it. Shane Lacey, who has also studied Wing Chun and Muay Thai among other things, has also gone on record as saying that there will always be some blending of the arts whenever you practice more than one discipline. I was in Fremont a couple of years ago and I had the chance to briefly meet Vince Lacey. He is a very kind man and the complete opposite of you and your close minded attitude. My father, who is a Wing Chun practitioner and also my first teacher, spoke to him and found out that they both went to St Francis Xavier College in Hong Kong and had a few good laughs. This nonsense about how learning the other art is like spitting on the face of your ancestors doesn’t seem to bother them, but it does seem to give you a hard time. I think maybe someone hasn’t been laid in a while. Martial arts is an individual thing and should be developed as such. And by the way, I just love internet tough guys like your last comment there. I would just love to see you say that crap to my face! Why is it that whenever someone attempts to post a thread to try to encourage intellectual discussion, it degrades into this with idiots like you?

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[QUOTE=hulkout;881899]Of course he would teach it that way because they are 2 separate classes at his school. But he himself practices both styles so obviously their will be some blending of the 2 in the way that he practices it. Shane Lacey, who has also studied Wing Chun and Muay Thai among other things, has also gone on record as saying that there will always be some blending of the arts whenever you practice more than one discipline. I was in Fremont a couple of years ago and I had the chance to briefly meet Vince Lacey. He is a very kind man and the complete opposite of you and your close minded attitude. My father, who is a Wing Chun practitioner and also my first teacher, spoke to him and found out that they both went to St Francis Xavier College in Hong Kong and had a few good laughs. This nonsense about how learning the other art is like spitting on the face of your ancestors doesn’t seem to bother them, but it does seem to give you a hard time. I think maybe someone hasn’t been laid in a while. Martial arts is an individual thing and should be developed as such. And by the way, I just love internet tough guys like your last comment there. I would just love to see you say that crap to my face! Why is it that whenever someone attempts to post a thread to try to encourage intellectual discussion, it degrades into this with idiots like you?[/QUOTE]

i have friends that do wc. do we get along? yes. but id still show them no mercy if they wanted to prove they were superior to me.

it still disgusts me the thought of combining the 2 styles.

hulkout= internet tough guy. love your last comment aswell.

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I have no issue with what the WC guys said and about cross training etc, but I do think that perhaps some of the people involved in the topic, assumed a little to much about, or should I say generalise to much. I practice both CLF and Pek Gwar, and with both styles, forearm conditioning is one of the most important things.

Sure there are probably allot of defences against pek choy, but in the end it all boils down to the practitioner. I know some people who can throw a pek choy with such speed and power that even if you do manage to block it, you would be in for some serious arm damage. I suppose there are probably allot of WC guys who can chain punch you into a wall or something. No doubt about that.

Re the CLF / WC rivalry, personally I don’t care about such things. However, some people choose to take it seriously, so I guess its their own choice. Its very much like religion…. It works for some and doesn’t for others.

I’ve heard allot about these deadly China Town fights. I suppose there aren’t allot of videos out with some clips of some fights?

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[QUOTE=Eddie;881939]I have no issue with what the WC guys said and about cross training etc, but I do think that perhaps some of the people involved in the topic, assumed a little to much about, or should I say generalise to much. I practice both CLF and Pek Gwar, and with both styles, forearm conditioning is one of the most important things.

Sure there are probably allot of defences against pek choy, but in the end it all boils down to the practitioner. I know some people who can throw a pek choy with such speed and power that even if you do manage to block it, you would be in for some serious arm damage. I suppose there are probably allot of WC guys who can chain punch you into a wall or something. No doubt about that.

Re the CLF / WC rivalry, personally I dont care about such things. However, some people choose to take it seriously, so I guess its their own choice. Its very much like religion. It works for some and doesnt for others.

Ive heard allot about these deadly China Town fights. I suppose there arent allot of videos out with some clips of some fights?[/QUOTE]
I agree with you that most people would get their arms broken trying to stop a CLF attack. That’s why my CLF friends helped me with forearm training and my WC training teaches me not to absorb the force. I’m 60 years old. It was years ago when I was in Hung Mun (yeah there were a couple of black guys in Hung Mun and Hung Ching). Video cameras were a bulky and large novelty back then. So either you’ll believe me or you won’t. BTW, I have much respect for CLF because I’ve seen it in real fights.

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the passion for fighting wing chun practioners flows through all of our bloods.

so the thought of combining clf and wc also absolutely disgusts me.

You are straight out of a kung fu movie.
Being a martial artist has absolutely nothing to do with this. This is just your own personal limitations you’re setting for yourself. Your argument is bordering on the lines of ridiculousness only seen by the conflict in Israel and Palestine.

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[QUOTE=hulkout;880611]My first martial art for many years has been wing chun. During the past year, I’ve started choy lay fut in order to branch out a bit. But I’m having some problems combining them. In wing chun, the centerline theory has always been drilled into my head over and over again. We’re taught to keep a tight structure and to not open up. I’ve also studied western boxing, so before I started choy lay fut, I was doing more of a jeet kune do approach. I used the footwork and punches of boxing along with wing chun. But boxing blends well with wing chun and can maintain the centerline. With choy lay fut however, a lot of the stances and techniques are very wide and seem to go against centerline theory. For example, one technique we practice is going into a unicorn stance (twist stance) with a straight punch and then stepping forward into a bow stance with a gwa-sow combination. It’s very powerful and effective, but combining it with wing chun is proving a bit difficult. Should I shorten the techniques a bit to make it tighter and more compatible? I know the techniques of choy lay fut can be used long or short. Or should I just practice them as 2 entirely different and separate arts?[/QUOTE]

Da Brucesta said; “Punch when you need to punch, kick when you need to kick.”

What’s wrong with utilizing EVERYTHING you have learned, rather than relying upon just a part of the whole, all in the name of “style”?

In a real fight, there is no room for “style”…its hit or be hit.

  • jo
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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;881945]I agree with you that most people would get their arms broken trying to stop a CLF attack. That’s why my CLKF friends helped me with forearm training and my WC training teaches me not to absorb the force. I’m 60 years old. It was years ago when I was in Hung Mun (yeah there were a couple of black guys in Hung Mun and Hung Ching). Video cameras were a bulky and large novelty back then. So either you’ll believe me or you won’t. BTW, I have much respect for CLF because I’ve seen it in real fights.[/QUOTE]

You are 60 years old??!! I saw your video and thought you were in your late 30’s. Respect!!!
I did not mean to disrespect you.
Re the china town fights, I am not questioning whether or not what you are saying is the truth, I was just curious as to exactly how these fights happened.

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I still stand by my opinions 100% :slight_smile:

Fair enough if you learn the 2 styles and you feel like exploring how they can work together, but that’s not my thing and I’ve stated my thoughts on it already.

Sifu Redmond. I understand your points and can see where you’re coming from. My intent was not to cause a flame war, just to express my opinion.
My comment came about because the demonstration you gave of the Biu Sao against the Pek Cho didn’t really convince me it was capable of what you said. If you had posted a video where the attacker put some power into the strike and you did the same with the block I would’ve seen what you’re saying instead of just assuming that it works.

As for being dillusional… Not at all. Just passionate about what I do. I don’t expect others to understand, or agree.

Hulkout… I don’t claim to be of any high authority to speak on anything.
As ChasinCharpChui said Grandmaster Vince Lacey teaches CLF and WC seperately.
Who knows if he mixes them in his own time? That’s his business.
I think it’d be a huge waste of time trying to blend the 2 styles… I don’t see the point in it. But go right ahead if you want, just don’t expect ‘idiots’ like me to like it.

JGTevo… WTF has Van Gogh got to do with CLF and WC and fighting. I think you’re a tad more “Art” than “Martial” huh? Go smoke a doobie and go to the museum, do some finger painting or something!

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[QUOTE=Eddie;881989]You are 60 years old??!! I saw your video and thought you were in your late 30’s. Respect!!!
I did not mean to disrespect you.
Re the china town fights, I am not questioning whether or not what you are saying is the truth, I was just curious as to exactly how these fights happened.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, you’ve made a friend. . .:slight_smile: No one believes I’m 60. My first tour in Vietnam was in 1966. I was 18 then. If you go to the photo gallery on my website http://www.wingchunkwoon.com you’ll see a few pics of me in 'Nam. There was tension between different Chinese groups even to the point of shootings in NY’s Chinatown. I just happened to be a member of one of those groups.

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[QUOTE=Charn Fu Gerk;881993]I still stand by my opinions 100 :slight_smile:

Fair enough if you learn the 2 styles and you feel like exploring how they can work together, but that’s not my thing and I’ve stated my thoughts on it already.

Sifu Redmond. I understand your points and can see where you’re coming from. My intent was not to cause a flame war, just to express my opinion.
My comment came about because the demonstration you gave of the Biu Sao against the Pek Cho didn’t really convince me it was capable of what you said. If you had posted a video where the attacker put some power into the strike and you did the same with the block I would’ve seen what you’re saying instead of just assuming that it works.

As for being dillusional… Not at all. Just passionate about what I do. I don’t expect others to understand, or agree. [/QUOTE]
Cool, I apologize for the “dillusional”. Passionate works for me.

[QUOTE=Charn Fu Gerk;881993]. . . . . . . . I think it’d be a huge waste of time trying to blend the 2 styles… I don’t see the point in it. . . . . .[/QUOTE]
Actually I’m not mixing the two styles. I guess it’s more of how would CLF do this or that and how would WC do this or that. Then I compare notes to work out defenses/attacks. I don’t do the “popular” version of WC. The forms are different and the theory is different. What I do is called Traditional Wing Chun under Sifu William Cheung. He had lots of fights with CLF people in Hong Kong. In fact WC Sifu Chan Chee Man was a CLF practitioner until he had a fight with William Cheung. After losing twice he asked William Cheung to take him to Yip Man. He left CLF and became a WC student. I have the interview where he tells the story but here’s a little info:
http://www.everythingwingchun.com/chan-chee-man-wing-chun-videos-dvd-ip-man-ving-tsun-s/123.htm

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[i]wingfoot/i… greek messenger of the gods… hermes.

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JGTevo… WTF has Van Gogh got to do with CLF and WC and fighting. I think you’re a tad more “Art” than “Martial” huh? Go smoke a doobie and go to the museum, do some finger painting or something!

The Art in Martial Art is equal to Martial. It’s representative of what martial arts are about. Everyone does martial arts differently, there are thousands of different styles out there - Why? These styles are thousands of peoples unique expression of their body and mind. Their “Martial Art” was a combination of intelligence, personal preference, personal body mechanics and expression of their fighting spirit.

So whatever you consider martial arts to be, whether it’s not about the “Art” part, or whatnot, you’re heavily outnumbered by what it IS.

Just take a look at Wing Chun - You have how many disciples of Yip Man? And how many different views and opinions, how many different ways of teaching? That is because everybody who achieves an understanding of martial arts BEYOND the technical, derives their own interpretation of their style or styles. If you REMOVE personal expression, the “Art” portion which you quickly discount, you have drones who all fight the same, all do the same thing. If someone throws a punch, everybody reacts the same for that punch. But no, in reality, some people prefer to be defensive, some aggressive, some people change opening techniques to work for them or their body types better. This is the heart of a martial art. I used to believe in solely what I called “Combat Science” and completely discounted the art portion. But the bottom line is, in MMA, in Boxing, in Kung Fu, in Karate, there is an equal portion of “Art”. Self-expression leads to personal development and understanding.

But ya know, I guess you could just be a drone, screw the self-expression, just do the techniques over and over and don’t really think about anything but that. Don’t ever question your teacher, just do what he tells you and don’t ever think any thoughts that might be considered “Disrespectful” to your “Ancestors.”

Dr. Yang Jwing Ming wrote about this in his book on White Crane - If I remember correctly he said Kung Fu teachers of old would send their students away for a certain amount of time after they achieve a certain level of proficiency… When they came back, if they were at that point still doing everything they were taught, just as they were taught, the teacher would send them away again, and again until the student made the teachings his own, until the student derived their own interpretation of what they learned.

That’s the “Art” portion. And it’s just as important as the “martial” portion. Even professional fighters exercise the “Art” portion, even without understanding it. That is why everyone fights differently. That’s self-expression, or the expression of the human body.

Funny thing is friend, go look up Eddie Bravo - He actually IS a pothead. And he gets the “Art” part of Martial art. And he accomplished more in the martial arts in a few years, than you probably ever will in your entire life.

By the way, how old are you?
Based on your posts I’d put you at around 18 or 19. And that’s being generous. You’re not a kung fu action hero dude, you don’t need to protect the honor of your teacher or style. The post you made where you said you’d have no mercy on your Wing Chun buddies who think they’re better than you is laughable. I’d love to take you all to an MMA or Boxing gym of actual active fighters and watch you all get worked.

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[QUOTE=JGTevo;882048]
By the way, how old are you?
Based on your posts I’d put you at around 18 or 19. And that’s being generous. You’re not a kung fu action hero dude, you don’t need to protect the honor of your teacher or style. The post you made where you said you’d have no mercy on your Wing Chun buddies who think they’re better than you is laughable. I’d love to take you all to an MMA or Boxing gym of actual active fighters and watch you all get worked.[/QUOTE]

actually that was me that posted

there is more to kung fu than just going to class, doin your session and paying your fees to your sifu. but than again its clear you don’t understand any of it.

mma? boxing? kung fu is not a sport.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;882001]Thanks, you’ve made a friend. . .:slight_smile: No one believes I’m 60. My first tour in Vietnam was in 1966. I was 18 then. If you go to the photo gallery on my website http://www.wingchunkwoon.com you’ll see a few pics of me in 'Nam. There was tension between different Chinese groups even to the point of shootings in NY’s Chinatown. I just happened to be a member of one of those groups.[/QUOTE]

I went trough your site just now. Very nice. I saw you menioned Wong shun leung. I once saw a WC video made by him, and was pretty impressed. the opening of the video had two guys fighting, it was pretty cool.