[QUOTE=The Xia;723620]It becomes a problem when the person practices forms without having a clue as to the material present within them. .[/QUOTE]
The problem begins when the person practices forms before he learns how to fight
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;723772]Forms for fighting mutliple opponents are even more ridiculous than forms for fighting a single person.[/QUOTE]
are you possibly saying that I’ve wasted time developing deadly techniques like this?
http://www.monash.edu.au/pubs/voice/img/TaekwondoScissorKick3.jpg
say it isn’t so! :eek: :o :mad: 
:o :eek:
[QUOTE=onyomi;723741]This is somewhat true with PM, but not really true for LF. PM forms generally don’t try to hide the applications, though there are sometimes extra applications hidden within them that may take some thought or guidance to find. .[/QUOTE]
Only in pretend, theoretical fighting can applications be hidden.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;723621]Whole different mentality… my sifu a PRIME example. Why teach crap when you have good stuff? Don’t you care that people who say they trained with you have utter trash?
Nope, don’t care, the people who “know” know about in and out door, etc etc blah blah
But I also know a lot of people who got out of the door stuff who think they got in teh door stuff![/QUOTE]
If you have a system that constantly tests itself, you can’t teach crap. Can you imagine trying to teach your fighters “pretend” techniques. Even beginners would figure out pretty fast that those techs don’t work.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;723777]Only in pretend, theoretical fighting can applications be hidden.[/QUOTE]
At the risk of sounding like an ex-president, it depends what you mean by “hidden”
In many TMA places, ALL the material is technically “hidden” because anything approaching practical application is totally absent…
I was in a certain school where a movement which was clearly a set up for a standing arm bar was instead taught as nothing more than blocking a punch… in this case, the application was “hidden”…
if by “hidden” you mean “blow up a chicken at 30 paces with a special chi blast” then OK I agree completely 
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;723779]If you have a system that constantly tests itself, you can’t teach crap. Can you imagine trying to teach your fighters “pretend” techniques. Even beginners would figure out pretty fast that those techs don’t work.[/QUOTE]
Traditionally speaking, ie the “old days” you have both YES and NO
In the “old days” at least the teacher himself had to know something real and be able to fight. That was because there was always the threat of a challenge.
But, unfortunately, Confucian ethics, Asian culture, do not question the teacher, patience, in time you will understand, blah blah, hype hype, beg, grovel bow etc and teachers got away with teaching crap, ie NOT what they used in their challenges. to MOST of the students
It’s said to see this mentallity attaching itself to perfectly logical modern North Americans who shop for cars, look for the best cell phone deals, etc but still accept absurd assertions when it comes from a “master”
In theory, the sports, the alive, the competitive, the MMA schools have to teach effective stuff becuase how are you gonna wrestle, roll, spar and compete with crap?
[QUOTE=Ravenshaw;723629]I guess the practice ethic must have been different “in the old days” when self protection was more of an issue, but when you don’t have to fight all the time in the real world, you probably won’t have the initiative you need to learn this way.[/QUOTE]
I doubt much real fighting occured “back in the day”. If it really was that common, it would be ingrained into the system. Systems that really had fighting “back in the day” have all kept that key value alive by incorporating some kind of continunous live testing methods, such as competition- i.e. fencing, kendo, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Muay Thai, and boxing.
A system that is based on fighting will always find a way to keep the fighting as an integral part of that system. If your system doesn’t have some kind of competitive “fighting” outlet, the chances are, it didn’t have much fighting in the first place.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;723785]I doubt much real fighting occured “back in the day”. If it really was that common, it would be ingrained into the system. Systems that really had fighting “back in the day” have all kept that key value alive by incorporating some kind of continunous live testing methods, such as competition- i.e. fencing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Muay Thai, and boxing.[/QUOTE]
Lei Tai, Shuai Jiao competition, San Shou, San Da… lineages that had real fighting “back in the day” tend to still do this stuff, the obvious question is
… why is that only about 5% (or LESS) of CMA out there today???
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;723780]At the risk of sounding like an ex-president, it depends what you mean by “hidden”.I n many TMA places, ALL the material is technically “hidden” because anything approaching practical application is totally absent…
I was in a certain school where a movement which was clearly a set up for a standing arm bar was instead taught as nothing more than blocking a punch… in this case, the application was “hidden”…
if by “hidden” you mean “blow up a chicken at 30 paces with a special chi blast” then OK I agree completely :D[/QUOTE]
When it comes to real applications, there is no hidden. The word has no meaning and is completely irrellevant to fighting. You cannot have a hidden technique. It is either there or it isn’t. In the case of the standing arm bar, there is no technique until the opponent is there.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;723772]Forms for fighting mutliple opponents are even more ridiculous than forms for fighting a single person.[/QUOTE]
Thats not it either. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;723780]
if by “hidden” you mean “blow up a chicken at 30 paces with a special chi blast” then OK I agree completely :D[/QUOTE]
LOL!! RPFL Standing ovation!!!
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;723632] Even if a teacher teaches his students 100% correct movement but if his student don’t spend enough time to work on it then that movement still won’t work for his students. [/QUOTE]
Wrestling, BJJ, MMA, Sambo, Judo, boxing, and Muay Thai coaches don’t expect their athletes to develop their skills on their own. That is what training is for.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;723787]When it comes to real applications, there is no hidden. The word has no meaning and is completely irrellevant to fighting. You cannot have a hidden technique. It is either there or it isn’t. In the case of the standing arm bar, there is no technique until the opponent is there.[/QUOTE]
And you spontaneously learned everything you know about fighting in the first second you fought someone? Without being taught how? Amazing…
All this circular logic is making me dizzy.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;723637]For example, a combo such as a side kick followed by an elbow strike may look good in form demo but may not be effective in combat.[/QUOTE]
Then by practicing it in forms, you are teaching yourself to be a worse fighter, rather than a better one.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;723784]In theory, the sports, the alive, the competitive, the MMA schools have to teach effective stuff becuase how are you gonna wrestle, roll, spar and compete with crap?[/QUOTE]
Exactly… that’s what weeds it out.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;723786]Lei Tai, Shuai Jiao competition, San Shou, San Da… lineages that had real fighting “back in the day” tend to still do this stuff, the obvious question is
… why is that only about 5% (or LESS) of CMA out there today???[/QUOTE]
Because it was probably only 5% or less who did it in the first place.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;723785] If your system doesn’t have some kind of competitive “fighting” outlet, the chances are, it didn’t have much fighting in the first place.[/QUOTE]
True, next!! You got anything else? You’ve used this tired old 45 record for almost any point made on this thread.
The oulet doesn’t supercede anything. To create global walls of separation is articifial and self serving. IE if you do forms , you don’t fight. Its not true for everyone.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;723792]Then by practicing it in forms, you are teaching yourself to be a worse fighter, rather than a better one.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=“4”]DuH!!![/SIZE] you realize you are (mis)quoting a fighting CMAer
[QUOTE=SifuAbel;723791]And you spontaneously learned everything you know about fighting in the first second you fought someone? [/QUOTE]
No… in alive styles, you are taught a technique and almost instantly perform it either with an opponent present or against some type of equipment. Very shortly thereafter, you practice this technique with progressively more and more resistance. You don’t string together techniques until you have practiced the individual techniques many times against both opponents and equipment.
Most CMA is the opposite.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;723639]Teacher is there to teach and student is there to learn.Most learn by doing. If student is not practicing whatt hey are taught, they stagnate their own progress. Teacher can recognize this because it is obvious.
So, what is wrong with not wanting to waste time with those who refuse to practice on their own and instead use lesson time for reiterative practice?[/QUOTE]
Other than supplemental strength and conditioning, most good fighters in alive systems don’t train on their own. Effective time spent in the training facility is what makes them effective fighters.