Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun student Aaron Baum winning 10th Legion MMA title

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Fighting is spontaneous in the moment. The system is just training you from a low level of ignorance to wisdom in combat. You do not fight according to system, but through the attributes you display and your personal style. Just as everyone learns to print, but later has their own signature.

Real fighting does not look like Chi Sao or prearranged San Sao or demonstrations, unless the opponent is way outclassed in ability.

Aaron had good structure, balance, timing, striking power, and took control of the opponent’s balance. He applied the art as I taught it to Alan (and to Aaron directly during our numerous visits), and he also transitioned to ground grappling, which is where WCK ends. I am very proud of his and Alan’s accomplishments.

I also urge our fellow WCK bretheren to step up to the plate and test their art. If Lyoto Machida is now light heavyweight champion of the UFC with Karate, what can WCK do? WCK people have the attitude they’re all fighters, but we need to prove it.

62

Sifu Chu/Orr, do you think Wing Chun has any principle that can be transferred to ground fighting/grappling?

There appears to be some that think so, while some say that WCK ends completely on the ground and there are no transferable concept or techniques.

Thanks

63

There are attributes that are completely transferable to the ground like putting your weight on the opponent, lead his mind to thinking there is only one escape, using your structure to create openings, resting your mass on the opponent, posting/structure to nullify attempts to escape, controlling the opponent’s balance and base, push the handles, pull the handles, X marks the spot, going with force, affect the opponent’s breathing, letting things go, etc.

Obviously, these are not things like Pak Da, Lop Da, Tan Da in the beginning WCK sense. There is no textbook like the 3 sets or Jong. These are more intangibles - you develop them or not. Of course, you have to learn specifics of ground fighting like shrimping, body movement on ground, rolling, bridging, crawling, then take downs, ****zers, throws, joint locks, submissions, cranks, chokes, calf crush, toe holds, figure 4, nelsons, and positions of keeping mount, guard, half guard, north/south, back, side mount. It is a different world there!

Martial arts have strike, kick, throws, joint locks, ground fighting, and weaponry. It is everyone’s duty to learn them all and make parts fit for you.

What needs to be done is some crosstraining to see where you can fit WCK in and develop your game. You give up your ego and humbly learn from the beginning. Learn the ground game rules first, then see where you can go.

64

[QUOTE=chusauli;936341]

WCK people have the attitude they’re all fighters, but we need to prove it.[/QUOTE]

sadly, the above applies equally to almost all the TCMA these days…

65

People that fight are fighters, the rest are recreational MA at best.
Since I retired from competition I no longer view myself as a fighter because I am no longer fighting consistently.

66

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;936705]People that fight are fighters, the rest are recreational MA at best.
Since I retired from competition I no longer view myself as a fighter because I am no longer fighting consistently.[/QUOTE]

yet,

  1. you don’t act like an active fighter and whirl wind of death

and

  1. when you talk about fighting, you DO have experience in it
67

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;936705]People that fight are fighters, the rest are recreational MA at best.
Since I retired from competition I no longer view myself as a fighter because I am no longer fighting consistently.[/QUOTE]

In my view, if you are training like a fighter, i.e, fighting as the core of your training, as they do in boxing or wrestling or BJJ or muay thai or etc., then you are a fighter. You are a swimmer if you get in the pool and swim. It doesn’t matter if you are doing it competively or recreationally. If you stop training like a fighter, so that you are no longer fighting as the core of your training, then you stop being a fighter.

68

yet,

  1. you don’t act like an active fighter and whirl wind of death

Only when I am cutting up chicken wings !!

  1. when you talk about fighting, you DO have experience in it

And yet well aware that its ancient history.
:smiley:

69

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;936710]In my view, if you are training like a fighter, i.e, fighting as the core of your training, as they do in boxing or wrestling or BJJ or muay thai or etc., then you are a fighter. You are a swimmer if you get in the pool and swim. It doesn’t matter if you are doing it competively or recreationally. If you stop training like a fighter, so that you are no longer fighting as the core of your training, then you stop being a fighter.[/QUOTE]

A valid point, but I am well aware of the “loss” of that “fighters/killers instinct” that made me competitive.
Not a bad thing mind you, in many ways my MA has progressed because of it.

70

The real “problem”, and I think those who have done it in any form and those who have been around it in any form already know this, is that if you have been exposed to real fighting, you have different attitudes and understand certain truths.

The guys sitting three rows back (or worse yet behind a keyboard), talking about how they’d do it better, how it isn’t “XYZ style”, asking why the “secret death touch” wasn’t used, etc etc They are, by choice or by design, disconnected from reality…

I have guys in my school will NEVER “fight”, but they understand what it is and IS NOT about. They’ve worked with fighters, they’ve seen fighting, they’ve experienced a taste of it by sparring in the gym… They don’t live in ivory towers and they don’t think they are “deadly”

71

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;936725]The real “problem”, and I think those who have done it in any form and those who have been around it in any form already know this, is that if you have been exposed to real fighting, you have different attitudes and understand certain truths.

The guys sitting three rows back (or worse yet behind a keyboard), talking about how they’d do it better, how it isn’t “XYZ style”, asking why the “secret death touch” wasn’t used, etc etc They are, by choice or by design, disconnected from reality…

I have guys in my school will NEVER “fight”, but they understand what it is and IS NOT about. They’ve worked with fighters, they’ve seen fighting, they’ve experienced a taste of it by sparring in the gym… They don’t live in ivory towers and they don’t think they are “deadly”[/QUOTE]

Reality never hurt anyone, well…not that much anyways, LOL !
However, fantasy land can get you seriously hurt.

72

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;936725]The real “problem”, and I think those who have done it in any form and those who have been around it in any form already know this, is that if you have been exposed to real fighting, you have different attitudes and understand certain truths.

The guys sitting three rows back (or worse yet behind a keyboard), talking about how they’d do it better, how it isn’t “XYZ style”, asking why the “secret death touch” wasn’t used, etc etc They are, by choice or by design, disconnected from reality…

I have guys in my school will NEVER “fight”, but they understand what it is and IS NOT about. They’ve worked with fighters, they’ve seen fighting, they’ve experienced a taste of it by sparring in the gym… They don’t live in ivory towers and they don’t think they are “deadly”[/QUOTE]

All very true.

I think fantasy often tends to attract people who are already “disconnected from reality”, and the TCMAs are over-flowing with elements of fantasy. Also, the way TCMAs are mainly “taught” tend to brainwash people into accepting those fantasy elements.

Being around reality (genuine fighters and seeing genuine fights) counteracts the fantasy.

73

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;936725]I have guys in my school will NEVER “fight”, but they understand what it is and IS NOT about. They’ve worked with fighters, they’ve seen fighting, they’ve experienced a taste of it by sparring in the gym… They don’t live in ivory towers and they don’t think they are “deadly”[/QUOTE]

that’s a good environment for TMA schools to be exposed to and it counteracts the fantasy element.

74

I tell my students this quite frequently (did it again this morning)

My own teacher never challenged anyone’s perceptions or biases. He simply figured out what you were looking for/what you were expecting and FED THAT NEED. If you came looking for fancy forms and fancy techniques, he’d give you that. If you wanted to learn how to fight, he could (and did) teach that also. But he never tried to change anyone’s perceptions or challenge what they believed. A lot of TCMA teachers seem like this in my experience

I, on the other hand, and this will NOT surprise anyone who has been on this board more than a month, ALWAYS challenge perceptions and biases. Even the good ones. You have to THINK. You have to examine and second guess (triple guess even) everything you THINK you know, because maybe you don’t know it at all. Evry idea or theory has to be put to the test, and often MANY TIMES.

It isn’t always easy, or profitable, but it goes hand in hand with progressing as both a fighter and individual

75

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;936737]I tell my students this quite frequently (did it again this morning)

My own teacher never challenged anyone’s perceptions or biases. He simply figured out what you were looking for/what you were expecting and FED THAT NEED. If you came looking for fancy forms and fancy techniques, he’d give you that. If you wanted to learn how to fight, he could (and did) teach that also. But he never tried to change anyone’s perceptions or challenge what they believed. A lot of TCMA teachers seem like this in my experience
[/QUOTE]

I think this attitude is cultural – and very pragmatic from a business POV: give the customer what he wants.

I, on the other hand, and this will NOT surprise anyone who has been on this board more than a month, ALWAYS challenge perceptions and biases. Even the good ones. You have to THINK. You have to examine and second guess (triple guess even) everything you THINK you know, because maybe you don’t know it at all. Evry idea or theory has to be put to the test, and often MANY TIMES.

It isn’t always easy, or profitable, but it goes hand in hand with progressing as both a fighter and individual

I think this attitude is cultural as well.

If you do a bit of research into chinese pedagogy (teaching), you’ll find that questioning things was frowned upon, and students were viewed essentially as sponges. Critical thinking (which involves the attitude of questioning everything) is western. As we’ve learned, certain attitudes are better for different things. And in the case of learning, critical thinking and having a questioning attitude, is much more productive (and explains why chinese pedagogy is considered very poor and has been dropped).

76

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;936737]I tell my students this quite frequently (did it again this morning)

My own teacher never challenged anyone’s perceptions or biases. He simply figured out what you were looking for/what you were expecting and FED THAT NEED. If you came looking for fancy forms and fancy techniques, he’d give you that. If you wanted to learn how to fight, he could (and did) teach that also. But he never tried to change anyone’s perceptions or challenge what they believed. A lot of TCMA teachers seem like this in my experience

I, on the other hand, and this will NOT surprise anyone who has been on this board more than a month, ALWAYS challenge perceptions and biases. Even the good ones. You have to THINK. You have to examine and second guess (triple guess even) everything you THINK you know, because maybe you don’t know it at all. Evry idea or theory has to be put to the test, and often MANY TIMES.

It isn’t always easy, or profitable, but it goes hand in hand with progressing as both a fighter and individual[/QUOTE]

Most of the MA teachers I have had have fallen into that category of GM Chan, except the sport combat ones of course.

77

“Every idea or theory has to be put to the test, and often MANY TIMES.”

You forge you sword in the fire to make it really strong. A great analogy i was taught. Time after time, to make it stronger and stronger. You can have a beautiful ornamental sword which in itself is a work of art, but it is different yet the same to look at, to one made to truly kill. By the way i know very little about sword construction to comment on technical matters..LOL

78

[QUOTE=aaron baum;937367]“Every idea or theory has to be put to the test, and often MANY TIMES.”

You forge you sword in the fire to make it really strong. A great analogy i was taught. Time after time, to make it stronger and stronger. You can have a beautiful ornamental sword which in itself is a work of art, but it is different yet the same to look at, to one made to truly kill. By the way i know very little about sword construction to comment on technical matters..LOL[/QUOTE]

That is a very good point, that many miss!