Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun student Aaron Baum winning 10th Legion MMA title

[QUOTE=Alan Orr;935543]Well done Aaron, I am very proud of you and the guys.

The above comments show the really problem with the way wing chun people think and train.

Wing Chun is a boxing art. The chi sao and forms are the way you learn timing, angles, pressure control and so on. When you fight you punch and kick.

You don’t see boxers looking for the speed ball in the ring. Its just training. In the ring you fight.

The skill is when too punch and kick. Not if you can see a ‘training pak sao’

This is the point T is trying to get across, but it seems nobody listens.

Also if you have time to post then maybe it would be a good idea to watch the whole fight, otherwise any point of view is limited.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lyEj3_Zo90

This is a clip of another one of my guys fighting on the same event.

We had 6 fights and 6 wins.

Aaron’s fight is a excellent display of Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and what can be done when you have structural control and real power from your stance.

My best

Alan[/QUOTE]

I totally disagree Alan, I didn’t see anything that looked like the movies there !
:stuck_out_tongue:

cheers guys…it was a great night…sifus hard work ended in a great show

a friend made a good point…if your basic punching and kicking beats your man, then where is the problem with you basic punching and kicking your opponent into the floor? i want to play the percentages and do damage, no risks or as few as possible…if you cant manage that properly in a stressful situation then how do you expect to do anything else?

also what may seem to the less aware as ‘basic’ is not just ‘simple’…basic is doing the bread and butter with skill…simple is simple…SLT is the basics of Wing Chun, but doing it properly is not a simple thing to do…two different things IMO

and having looked at the clip a 1000 times…LOL! i came to the conclusion that one section maybe showed the HARD and SOFT sides of wing chun, chi sau and chin na in real application…

5.10 - 5.20 shows the HARDER side (ie linked)…PUNCHING

5.20 - 5.35 shows the SOFT (delink)…SUBMISSION

ie punched and dominated with hard power, then when the times was right delinked, and redirected the head using our chi sau skill for the guillotine submission (CHIN NA)..the softer side…i didnt even realise i’d done those things until i watched it…the training came out without consciously thinking about what to do..now im not saying i didnt make mistakes because i sure did…and thats why i fight (apart from enjoying it)…to highlight things i do wrong and then try and correct them.

my best guys

aaron

[QUOTE=aaron baum;935613]cheers guys…it was a great night…sifus hard work ended in a great show

a friend made a good point…if your basic punching and kicking beats your man, then where is the problem with you basic punching and kicking your opponent into the floor? i want to play the percentages and do damage, no risks or as few as possible…if you cant manage that properly in a stressful situation then how do you expect to do anything else?

also what may seem to the less aware as ‘basic’ is not just ‘simple’…basic is doing the bread and butter with skill…simple is simple…SLT is the basics of Wing Chun, but doing it properly is not a simple thing to do…two different things IMO

and having looked at the clip a 1000 times…LOL! i came to the conclusion that one section maybe showed the HARD and SOFT sides of wing chun, chi sau and chin na in real application…

5.10 - 5.20 shows the HARDER side (ie linked)…PUNCHING

5.20 - 5.35 shows the SOFT (delink)…SUBMISSION

ie punched and dominated with hard power, then when the times was right delinked, and redirected the head using our chi sau skill for the guillotine submission (CHIN NA)..the softer side…i didnt even realise i’d done those things until i watched it…the training came out without consciously thinking about what to do..now im not saying i didnt make mistakes because i sure did…and thats why i fight (apart from enjoying it)…to highlight things i do wrong and then try and correct them.

my best guys

aaron[/QUOTE]

Good facing/controlling your opponent’s centerline allowing equally opportunities from both of your hands to attack/defend.

Congratulations!!! Winning a title fight like that takes a lot of hard work and dedication. Great job!

[QUOTE=aaron baum;935613]a friend made a good point…if your basic punching and kicking beats your man, then where is the problem with you basic punching and kicking your opponent into the floor? i want to play the percentages and do damage, no risks or as few as possible…if you cant manage that properly in a stressful situation then how do you expect to do anything else?
[/QUOTE]

From what I saw your control of centerline / opponent’s center, and consistent forward pressure landing structured punches pretty much took away your opponent’s will to fight. It looked to me like he was almost giving you the guillotine at the end, but maybe that’s just me.

Good power from structured punches, good control of center, consistent forward pressure.

Yep - wing chun. Good fundamental wing chun in a MMA environment.

People looking for bong, tan, fuk hand formations are missing the point.

CONGRATS!!! great to see the chun represented in the cage. excellent

Aaron/Alan - congrats. Good to see your continued successes.

Excellent fight - Aaron had the opponent closed off and shut him down with infighting. I am sure the opponent felt the power in Aaron’s strikes.

Excellent job! Excellent event! Excellent ring girls!

Well done!

[QUOTE=duende;935547]I watched the vids this morning.

Saw good tracing, centerline control, and domination of the opponents COG.

If this ain’t WC then what is.

Congrats.[/QUOTE]

i guess ill do a butterfly kick to the centerline and call it wing chun

[QUOTE=Pacman;935958]i guess ill do a butterfly kick to the centerline and call it wing chun[/QUOTE]

If the sum if Wing Chun is simply a series of exact, rehearsed movements, than Wing Chun is irrelevant to martial arts.

Wing Chun’s series of concepts cover rooting, striking, controlling the arms, the centerline, footwork and sensitivity reflex, just to name a few.

Wing Chun is not, sit in yee gee kim yeung ma and do your rehearsed movements exactly as you were taught.

In fact, just to have a more in-depth discussion about what a martial art really is, the idea that an art forces you into a specific way of fighting is either a massive flaw conceptually of the art itself as it was taught, or a misinterpretation of martial arts in general.

Martial arts adds abilities to your natural way of fighting. It does not detract. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t teach you how to fix bad habits - Its like this, you can jab, cross, uppercut and still use the concepts of wing chun. Wing Chun does not say, you cannot jab, cross, uppercut, or hook. It does not say you must be 95% wing chun, or any such ridiculous percentage, in order to be using wing chun. It does not say, You MUST FIGHT A SPECIFIC WAY, martial arts is as this: These are tools. Use them when necessary. Apply them logically to enhance your abilities, whether they be BJJ, boxing, etc.

The idea that a style should limit someone in any way is counter to every legitimate artistic field.

[QUOTE=AdrianK;935960]If the sum if Wing Chun is simply a series of exact, rehearsed movements, than Wing Chun is irrelevant to martial arts.

Wing Chun’s series of concepts cover rooting, striking, controlling the arms, the centerline, footwork and sensitivity reflex, just to name a few.

Wing Chun is not, sit in yee gee kim yeung ma and do your rehearsed movements exactly as you were taught.

In fact, just to have a more in-depth discussion about what a martial art really is, the idea that an art forces you into a specific way of fighting is either a massive flaw conceptually of the art itself as it was taught, or a misinterpretation of martial arts in general.

Martial arts adds abilities to your natural way of fighting. It does not detract. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t teach you how to fix bad habits - Its like this, you can jab, cross, uppercut and still use the concepts of wing chun. Wing Chun does not say, you cannot jab, cross, uppercut, or hook. It does not say you must be 95% wing chun, or any such ridiculous percentage, in order to be using wing chun. It does not say, You MUST FIGHT A SPECIFIC WAY, martial arts is as this: These are tools. Use them when necessary. Apply them logically to enhance your abilities, whether they be BJJ, boxing, etc.

The idea that a style should limit someone in any way is counter to every legitimate artistic field.[/QUOTE]

Good post!

More people are starting to understand the difference between training and fighting. You train to fight. Then you fight. All the training is skill development.

Wing chun is a boxing art, we punch and kick. We use all the same punches just fist placement and vectors are different. Balance control and pressure are what we train to use.

best

Alan

[QUOTE=Alan Orr;935973]Good post!

More people are starting to understand the difference between training and fighting. You train to fight. Then you fight. All the training is skill development.

Wing chun is a boxing art, we punch and kick. We use all the same punches just fist placement and vectors are different. Balance control and pressure are what we train to use.

best

Alan[/QUOTE]

A friend of mine once said:
" All I have ever done is WC, for the last 20 years, everyday, WC, when I fight, WTF else am I going to use???"

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;936003]A friend of mine once said:
" All I have ever done is WC, for the last 20 years, everyday, WC, when I fight, WTF else am I going to use???"[/QUOTE]

I like that one!

I also tell my guys if I headbutt you thats still my wing chun! lol

[QUOTE=chusauli;935751]Excellent fight - Aaron had the opponent closed off and shut him down with infighting. I am sure the opponent felt the power in Aaron’s strikes.

Excellent job! Excellent event! Excellent ring girls![/QUOTE]

Hi Sifu

Aaron done us proud, as did our other 5 guys!

Sep we will have more guys fighting.

best

Alan

[QUOTE=Pacman;935958]i guess ill do a butterfly kick to the centerline and call it wing chun[/QUOTE]

This is technique-based thinking. Fortunately, I’ve learned that WC is much much more.

[QUOTE=AdrianK;935960]If the sum if Wing Chun is simply a series of exact, rehearsed movements, than Wing Chun is irrelevant to martial arts.
[/QUOTE]

agreed and i am not saying that. wing chun is a set of physical movements and theory. two things. you can’t have one without the other. true you could apply the theory to other arts or movements, but without both it is not wing chun

i totally agree and know that in a combat situation you will have to adjust for what is happening and chances are things will not look exactly as you planned.

however you should be able to see a WC fighter fight and tell what movement he was doing. you should be able to look and say “that was a good arrow step punch” or “hey that was a good white crane sweep” (these terms might not make sense if you are from a different lineage than me but you get the point).

im not in any way saying that aaron baum did a bad job. in fact he kicked butt.

this is of course my definition of what “using wing chun” entails and if you feel that both theory and physical movements are not needed to define a fighting style, then that is fine. we would just be discussing semantics then.

[QUOTE=duende;936015]This is technique-based thinking. Fortunately, I’ve learned that WC is much much more.[/QUOTE]

what is ‘technique-based thinking’ and what is WC to you?

agreed and i am not saying that. wing chun is a set of physical movements and theory. two things. you can’t have one without the other. true you could apply the theory to other arts or movements, but without both it is not wing chun

A person is not wing chun, nor can what and what is not wing chun be defined by a set of specific guidelines. Wing Chun is a subject to learn. You are, technically, using wing chun if you use even one of its unique concepts. Or even if you take a concept and modify it whichever way you’d like. You are using wing chun.

The movements are templates to express not how the technique MUST be performed, but are instead a physical representation of the concepts.

For instance, take a movement in wing chun where you can uproot someone - If you understand that concept, the physical template is just a way to help you learn and understand it better, then you can apply that to an infinite number of movements from an infinite number of positions, adapting to the changes present in a real fight.

However if you simply do the movement specifically as shown, even with adjustments to it, you are limiting the concept into that physical template. You are specifying that instead of an infinite number of expressions of this concept, you are limiting your concept to only a few expressions, and by that you are implying that a fight will always go in these few ways.

A jab in boxing, for instance, has an infinite number of expressions depending on the fighter and the person they’re fighting against. It is adaptable, adjustable, and applicable and even the top professional boxers out there, do not use it the same way every time, or even adhere to any guidelines of the physical template. I’ve seen boxers throw a textbook cross with their shoulders and hips in full rotation, land it and not knock someone out. AND I’ve seen boxers throwing a cross using ONLY their arms, with no rotation, and knock someone out.

In a real fight, it is constantly changing, and so too must you be constantly adapting, changing, and your concepts and understanding of what you can do in certain positions will dictate how your body naturally should act, not “he is throwing a hook, I must pivot and tan sao as shown and expected.” That is the type of thinking that not only gets people killed, but limits their potential.

All of Wing Chun’s technical movements begin with barriers, tan sao, pak sao, bong sao, etc. because we need a way to name and identify something - But the concept you’re missing is, there are no barriers. There are infinite representations and expressions of these concepts and ideas.

hello guys

the major factor in the long discussion of what wc should look like in mma, from what ive learned from my experience, is this IMO…space…in the cage you have many factors that change how the fight looks…but two men ready, facing each other with a crowd watching, able to grapple…is a very different environment from two guys going at it face to face in bar…you have to deal with the clash from distance when you are pumped and ready to go..adrenalin and the subsequent dump can be no fun…

if you go here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDEPNCo8AbU

you can see me in a chi sau comp…looks different to my fight…but you can see the same body mechanics at close range…the thing is when someone is really trying to knock you out you switch to a slightly more basic animal mood and just try and cause damage until they are crushed…but the drills and sensitivity training at close range, gives you the confidence to be or try to be on the inside where you can shut him down…you need long range power as well, there are many boxers who will knock you clean out, believe me…

this is only what i have learnt but i’m still searching for answers…but i dont stress about these things…do your drills, spar, form, kbells, grapple, have fun, get punched, punch…

check this out from our training brother, leo negao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2RvGfHJ_XA

now that is the real deal..LOL..old school..the end is something else,watch it all

my best