there is some special trainning exercise for choy lay fut kicks ?
Hi Rain-
You are the guy who is trying to learn CLF from books and tapes, correct?
Choy Lay Fut has a lot of different kicks like most styles.
The big difference is that you don’t lean back very much when you kick.
This makes your kicks faster but less powerful because you don’t have your full weight behind them.
Here are a few other hints:
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After you kick bring your foot back as quickly as possible to hanging horse (or crane) stance.
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When doing a side kick, kick with the heel and the side of the foot. Japanese styles just use the heel but kung fu uses the edge of the foot. Sometimes they call this the “knife edge.”
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Keep your back straight when kicking, don’t “hunch down” as you kick upwards.
Hope that helps. I’m sure there are some other people out there who might have some pointers for RAIN.
I think the best thing you can do to practise kicks is to.. well.. kick.
And when you grasp the technique, apply it to a heavy bag or your training partner.
Fu pow was right about not leaning back, but you can get surprisingly lot of weight behind the kick by just using your waist and supporting leg properly. Just like in hand techniques, the feet stay rooted and you use the waist movement to generate power.
Some branches have forms that emphasize kicking techniques. like left right one legged form in chan family branch. The kicking exercises are done mainly with partner to develope different aspects of kicking and to make sure the technique is correct.
premier
Good advice form both Fu-Pow and Premier.
Fu-Pow:
Off the subject a bit…I have found the Japanese side kick actually sometimes overemphasizes the knife edge (sokuto). Traditionally, they tend to point the large toe up and point the other four toes down in an attempt to extend the edge of the foot more. I prefer to use a knife foot myself, but with all five toes pulled back.
Jim
Kicking is a necessary skill in Choy Lay Fut, but I tend not to over-emphasize its importance. The structure of Choy Lay Fut (in my opinion) is better served when both of the practitioner’s feet are on the ground supporting or delivering hand techniques.
Just my opinion.
Straightblast5,
I know you have a high reputation as a Wing Chun and CLF practitioner, but I must beg to differ. CLF is known as “nam kuen bak tui” (southern fists and northern feet), so kicking is an integral part of CLF. Without the legs we lose 50% of our arsenal. As premier said earlier, it is so important we have one form devoted entirely to kicking and many of the hand techniques are done with kicking combinations to create the effect of “making a sound to the east but attacking the west”. We must not underestimate the importance of kicking (and I don’t mean fancy kicks). What you said may be true for Wing Chun but definitely not for CLF, IMHO. No disrespect is intended.
JosephX
Hello Joseph X
No disrespect interpreted. I wasn’t aware of my reputation as anything more than a martial arts student (albeit a darn good looking one), but it’s nice to hear. 
What I had wrote in regards to kicking is mainly what I have discovered through my own sparring and fighting experiences, and not just merely what someone had told me (including my father and Sifu WSL - the two people in this world that I respect most).
The method of Choy Lay Fut my father teaches does offer an effective kicking arsenal (none of which are fancy), but they definitely do not make up 50% of my CLF tools. Our CLF offensive strategy focuses more on attacking with “hand” techniques while using our feet mainly as a base to support or deliver our strikes. We don’t neglect kicks (as they definitely have their place), we just don’t over-emphasize kicking when it’s not conducive to the situation. From my humble experiences, keeping two feet on the ground is generally safer in a real fight than balancing on one. I find this (IMHO) true for Ving Tsun, Choy Lay Fut or otherwise.
Hello Phil,
Well, I guess we agree to disagree, we all have different experience. BTW, I did not say kicking constitued 50% of our tools, I said our legs, which means the lower part of our body is just as useful as the upper part. Why fire on two when you can fire on four?
Some people prefer to fight with their hands, others prefer to work with their legs and their hands, attacking high and low at the same time. Personally I found it more effective to upset your opponent’s root than trying to hit him all the time. I find dynamic balance is more effective than static balance, there is always more weight on one leg than the other when fighting, so low kicks can be as effective as jabbing, but that is just my opinion.
At least I am glad your father feels the same way as I do. I am sure he was as good looking as you are when he was your age.
JosephX
str8blast
I just checked out your website. Good work =)
Joseph-
Personally I found it more effective to upset your opponent’s root than trying to hit him all the time.
I couldn’t agree more with you here, Joseph. The legs in general are way under utilized in this respect.
All Kung Fu is “in fighting” so you gotta use the weapon thats closest to your opponent. Sometimes it is your foot sometimes that it is your hand. Could be your shoulder or hip.
Secondly, if you can upset someone’s root then the fight is pretty much over. Even if you only upset their root for a second they become helpless and you can fire off any attack you want. This is why I train Taiji also. They explicitly train strategies to upset your opponents root. Either by leading him into “nothingness” or bumping him off stance.
CLF has these strategies also but they are not obvious. It easy to focus on the striking techniques like Sao Choy or Chin Ji but your never gonna get to use them effectively unless you disrupt your opponents root first.
thank you fu pow for yours answers . i’d apreciate your patience .
i got a special point of view about kickin in combat .
today is very normal see in tournaments and even street fighting people that use 50 % kicks and 50 % fists in a combat .
i mean , the most of us like kicks and use that kicks .
but if you see the patron of a form , you see a imaginary combat where the kicks are not used in 50 % .
and if you make hung gar , praying mantis , choy lay fut or every style you can find this truth in his forms .
what think about what the creators of the form was thinking when was puting few kicks in the forms ?
i know that wong fei hung was a terrible kicker , but tiger and crane form don’t have so many kicks .
i know that mok gar kuen have a form called " the 108 kicks " , but i never see the form .
Hello Joseph X
You said:
“…our legs, which means the lower part of our body is just as useful as the upper part. Why fire on two when you can fire on four?”
My Reply:
I couldn’t agree with you more. But if you re-read my posts regarding this subject again you’ll see I have repeatedly stated that we don’t neglect kicks (as they definitely have their place), we just don’t over-emphasize kicking when it’s not conducive to the situation. In general, my feet are usually preoccupied with keeping me standing, while my hands are almost always free to attack.
You said:
“Some people prefer to fight with their hands, others prefer to work with their legs and their hands, attacking high and low at the same time.”
My Reply:
I prefer to fight with all four of my limbs, since I have them. But it just depends on the situation. Keep in mind that your feet are usually preoccupied with keeping you standing, and regardless of how much weight you choose to put on each leg, you’re probably more balanced standing on two.
Attacking high and low at the same time with punches and kicks looks good on paper, but in reality, it’s probably not immensely practical to do so. If you’re like me, your legs are most likely longer than your arms, and to simultaneously kick and punch your opponent (with any effect), you’d probably have to be pretty close to your opponent (unless you’re folding your torso to compensate for the disparity between the length of your arms and you legs). If you’re in that close, it’s good idea to keep both feet on the ground (to have as strong of a base as possible), since you’re entering into clinching range and have a greater chance of loosing balance.
It’s funny that (in a previous post) you mentioned Ving Tsun as being more likely to place an emphasis on hand strikes than CLF, because from my humble experiences, that’s not exactly true. While most Ving Tsun practitioners do have an affinity for attacking with the hands, the structure and stances in Ving Tsun are more consistently upright and square, thus more conducive to kicking. Choy Lay Fut structure, on the other hand, places more emphasis on stances that are lower and wider. Lower and wider stances are more conducive to maintaining stability while supporting “hand” strikes. Not to say that CLF does not include stances that are conducive to kicking, but (from my perspective) they number significantly less than those that favor hand attacks.
As with I everything that I do, I do my best to follow the maxim of practicing what I use and using what I practice. In the Choy Lay Fut method that I practice (the one that my father teaches), we place more emphasis on attacking with the “hands” while our legs act a stabilizing and delivery system. Doesn’t mean we neglect kicks. It all boils down to kicking when it’s appropriate, and not kicking when it’s not appropriate.
My original argument is directed more at those who do not really understand Choy Lay Fut’s body mechanics. When these individuals fight or spar, they tend to take on a “kickboxing-like” stance and end up doing a weird hybrid of sport TKD and boxing with a few Sau Chues thrown in. That’s what I mean, when I say over-emphasizing kicks (and sacrificing proper structure).
I believe that the concepts of particular methods, be it wrestling, Choy Lay Fut, Muay Thai, etc. were developed in relation to a prescribed structure. Though kicks are definitely not to be ignored, CLF for the most part takes on a structure where the legs act more as a stabilizing and delivery system than a tool for constant kicking. At least that’s the CLF method that I was taught to practice (and have found to work for me in sparring and fighting).
You said:
“Personally I found it more effective to upset your opponent’s root than trying to hit him all the time.”
My Reply:
Breaking an opponent’s structure can be done in a multitude of ways, depending on the methods you practice. We break our opponent’s structure primary with both strikes and relative positioning. For example, we sometimes employ what we call “invasive positioning” that utilizes a solid stance structure to over take an opponent’s center of gravity (thus uprooting them) and breaking their posture (open them up to strikes). In essence, I am attacking my opponent with my whole body (legs included).
To me, merely kicking and punching constitute more as “trying to hit him all the time.” than what I’m doing with dynamic positioning.
You said:
“I find dynamic balance is more effective than static balance, there is always more weight on one leg than the other when fighting, so low kicks can be as effective as jabbing, but that is just my opinion.”
My Reply:
I definitely agree with dynamic balance over static balance. However, placing more weight on leg than the other solely depends on the position and stance you’re currently employing, and no matter how much weight you place on either leg, you’ll probably be more likely to stay standing if both were on the ground. Low kicks are definitely an option, good or bad depending on the situation.
You said:
“At least I am glad your father feels the same way as I do.”
My Reply:
I’m sure he would agree with you on the same points where I too agreed with you.
You said:
“I am sure he was as good looking as you are when he was your age.”
My Reply:
You’re darn right, brother! And he still is!
premier
Originally posted by premier
[B]str8blast
I just checked out your website. Good work =) [/B]
Thanks, I hope you enjoyed browsing through it!
Phil,
I just think over-emphaszing on hand techniques is just as misleading as over-emphasizing on kicking. The reverse also applied. It is like boxing and kickboxing, they don’t reflect the full range of CLF (and WC!). I still say hand techniques and kicking are of equal importance like yin and yang, but after reading you last reply, I don’t think we are that different in our points of view, we just see them from a relatively different angle. The comment about your father was a joke, did you not see the smiling face?
JosephX
Joseph X
You said:
“I just think over-emphaszing on hand techniques is just as misleading as over-emphasizing on kicking. The reverse also applied.”
My Reply:
Agreed, but generally speaking, CLF places more emphasizes on hand techniques than kicks, as your feet should be pre-occupied most of the time with keeping you standing (and balanced) while giving you the means to deliver your techniques to your opponent.
You said:
“I still say hand techniques and kicking are of equal importance like yin and yang, but after reading you last reply, I don’t think we are that different in our points of view, we just see them from a relatively different angle.”
My Reply:
From reading your posts, I agree that our overall understanding of Choy Lay Fut is not that dissimilar. However, I feel any technique’s level of importance is dictated solely by the situation that one finds himself in. When viewed from the perspective of relative context, all techniques can be rated as “equal”.
When the body is viewed a whole unit rather than as segregated parts (of arms, legs, etc.), it becomes apparent that the legs are no less important than any other part of one’s anatomy. Generally speaking, however, CLF structure dictates different but equally important roles to the arms and legs when maximizing the whole body unit to accomplish the given goal of incapacitating an opponent. In accordance to the overall CLF structure (at least with the CLF that I’m most familiar with), kicks are important when appropriate, but greater emphasis is given to the “hand” techniques for the very reasons that I have stated previously. (note: when I say “hand” I mean the whole arm – shoulder, elbow, forearms, etc.)
This is just our perspective on what we practice. I might disagree with some of your viewpoints, but I’m happy to hear that your approaches work for you. Overall I think we agree on more than we disagree.
You said:
“The comment about your father was a joke, did you not see the smiling face?”
My Reply:
No sweat! Of course I knew you were joking, didn’t you also see the smiley face at the end of my post?
Take Care,
Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association
straightblast5,
I couldn’t agree with you more. I am a bak hsing CLF practitioner and we are 90% hands. But saying that, we do not neglect kicks. For us a kick is merely another step, sometimes as you step into your attack, a kick is warranted.
The added power having both feet planted when you are engaged and driving forward almost always negates your opponent’s kick- pure dynamics of motion.
And your comment about how most adopt the ‘kick-boxing’ stance is wide-spread throughout the eastern martial arts. In my opinion it reveals poor training from poor understanding and faith in one’s chosen style.
Martial artists have gotten very sloppy. Go to an Open tournament and you’ll be hardpressed in decerning one style from any other.
In closing, I also believe too many martial artists do not know how to develop proper power in their kicks, except for when they are attacking a heavy bag. Once again, improper training and lack of knowledge in total body mechanics.
I’m not dissing those of you who train or believe in kicks as the end-all to be-all, nor am I disagreeing their effectiveness for a person who knows how and when to use kicks. I spent many years developing my kicking technique and strategy. It’s part of becoming a well rounded martial artist. Nonetheless, give me 3 months to train someone and they will focus soley on stance/hip/arm movement. Period.
nospam.
It’s often said that CLF suits a lot of people with different body types. Some people have naturally strong and flexible legs and I think in that case they should use their legs when ever possible.
The general idea in fighting is to strike to the open areas, right? and if there’s no open areas, you create one. If the target is kickable and your position is right to do it, then you should kick it.
premier
JosephX & Straightblast5,
U both r correct & have good points. I havnt been training long but from what ive trained & seen. The kicks r usualy used to bridge the gap or break thru ur opponents defence to create a openning. CLF has a lot of unbeleivable flowing non stop combos punches, kicks, elbows & knees all mixed. Their also got really good footwork, i have heard few lineage of clf dont have ng lun ma(5 wheel horse) no offence but i think this is a real shame. I think this set should be a must 4 every clf beginner its a great set to build strong, mobil stances & fast footwork, changing from stance 2 stance. Also theres another set 4 footwork, attack & defence its learned by the 1st yr of intermediate(so by about 2 yrs) its called Sze Mourn Kiu Jo Sarng Ma. (4 doors bridging running the live horse) Sifu Lane Louie has written a article on his website www.clfma.com. I will b learning this in a few months hopefully. We do have all sorts of kicks high, low, sweeps,jump & flying but havnt seen many in forms even the single legged set sifu Chan taught in china. I seen it practiced at our kwoon, some kicks but mainly hand techs.(cool fighting set) Have any of u more advanced guys seen a form concentrated on kicks? I have read in Doc Fais book at the back its got all the forms & theres a set called “Continious Dual Kicking Form”(Yin Yeung Teui Lin Wan)
Anyway everyone has there own techs. they prefer. I am about 5 foot 8, 95kg & still growing so i like to keep kicks low 4 sweeping & breaking so i keep my balance. I rather mostly use my legs with footwork, low kicks but the occasional mid push kick to hit or bridge & break thru like i said b4 & mid roundehouse to break some ribs. But i guess some high kicks r alright when ur got ur enemy dazed or off balance.(like the front push kick with toes or ball of the foot 2 the throat or under the chin) Sifu Lane has got me with those.(ouch) But as i said i rather use quick changing footwork & go in hard with my weight behind my hands, low breaking kicks & destroy anything in my path.(always on my toes)
Peace 2 all CLF bros. & sisters,
Golden Armor
What are some of the fancier kicks like?
Just curious
I guess the 360 degrees spinning jumping inside crescent kick is the most common “fancy kick”.