Nospam,
It’s good to hear that you share my views!
Take Care,
Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association
nospam
i believe you 'd say something very true and very commom in kung fu and that can star another topic :
people don't believe in his style
is very common see people adopting kickboxing stances and kicks in combat . for what reason ?
fear of lost the fight ? no faith in his style ?
maybe today people have too much information and lost the goal of his style . maybe is most comfortable make high kicks all time . i don’t no .
i got a interview of tat mau wong telling when he was young and was fighting in hong kong . he 'd say in the article :
" back in hong kong , everybody really uses their styles . not like here when everybody uses a boxing technique . in hong kong . you fight a hung gar guy , you know the hung speciallity or southern praying mantis , there arte some good fightings in this style . they are strong and their really used their style . or some white crane stylist , they are wide open . which doens’t mean anithing because they get in and one strong punch will really knock you out . wing chun people uses a lot of elbows "
what you think ? you believe that today the most fighters really use their styles ?
"I spent many years developing my kicking technique and strategy. It’s part of becoming a well rounded martial artist. Nonetheless, give me 3 months to train someone and they will focus soley on stance/hip/arm movement. Period.”
Once again, Nospam hit the nail on the head. It is easier for beginners to work on the hand techniques before they can build up a solid foundation for further study. After that, we need to work on the kicking techniques (and other things) to become a well-rounded martial artist.
To the uninitiated, CLF looked as though we have a lot of hand techniques unique to the style, like gwa, sow, charp etc. and they think that is the style. They don’t realize CLF also has an arsenal of kicking and ground fighting techniques. Because they are inexperienced, they think we cannot do a lot of kicks and be stable at the same time, we cannot possibly hit and kick effectively together, we have to stay on two feet all the time to be safe and once we are down we are finished.
While this is true for the beginners, for a well-rounded and experienced CLF practitioner, mobility and stability can work magic together, kicking and hand techniques can roll together as natural as moving from point A to point B and we can still have a chance when we are down on the ground. It is just we don’t see these kinds of display much nowadays, so they think it is neither possible nor desirable in CLF.
Like fast food, they are concerned only with what comes fast and easy. They want to stay on their two legs and fight with their hands because it is easier and quicker to get some results. Training someone to fight in a tournament in 3 months is very different to training to become a martial artist for life. By de-emphasizing the importance of kicking for the beginners, we run the risk of giving a wrong impression of the true nature of our art.
By downplaying the usefulness of kicking, we run the risk of producing one-dimensional martial artists.
In the years that I’ve spent studying and teaching martial arts, I’ve always noticed that both beginners and the naive tend to kick and punch wildly to make up for their poor structure and body mechanics. It’s only after practicing and understanding Choy Lay Fut’s body mechanics and general fighting strategy (dynamic positioning) that they begin to realize the value of solid hand techniques supported by stable and mobile footwork.
That is why (as both Nospam and I have noticed), most beginner and inexperienced CLF practitioners take on a “pseudo-kickboxing” stance and execute a fighting strategy hardly similar to what is taught in the CLF curriculum (at least not the curriculum that I was taught and use). That’s what I was referring to when I mentioned over-emphasizing kicks and sacrificing structure. This does NOT mean kicks are unimportant and cannot be seamlessly incorporated into our offensive strategy. It also does NOT mean that I cannot do a lot of kicks, it’s just not necessary to do so.
As I’ve stated before, it all just boils down to kick when it’s appropriate and don’t kick when it’s not appropriate. It just so happens that Choy Lay Fut focuses more on “hand” techniques than kicking, because the “feet” are often involved in the more important task of keeping you standing, stable, and mobile. There’s nothing “high-level” about this concept, just simple common sense.
Lots of beginners look to well roundedness to mean being an expert at every game and range, while neglecting the principles and concepts of their own chosen method. I have a pretty good knowledge of leverage (and stand up grappling) from CLF, but I would be lying if I said my ground-fighting arsenal was adequate enough (from CLF alone) to successful play the ground game and submit an experienced ground fighter. However, I never willingly fight by anyone else’s preferred strategy.
In a fight against anyone of any method, I will fight to maintain my own preferred offensive. If I do get taken down, I would utilize what I do know of leverage or any other concept in CLF applicable to get me back on my feet to fight again. If someone kicks me, I’ll use my stance and positioning to nullify their kicks, break their posture, and open them up to my own strikes (be it kicking or punching, depending on the situation).
To me, being well rounded means having applicable knowledge and understanding of different approaches and being able to deal with these approaches using my chosen method’s core principles and strategies. I really don’t believe that simply “knowing” how to punch, kick, and grapple necessarily equals being well rounded.
an interesting thread going in good directions.
regarding novice playing CLF, and how they adapt to a " kick-boxing " situation, this also happens if every art, a trend of the times maybe? in the 60’ and 70’ especially in western society, the fall back was to present like a boxer, now they present like a kick-boxer, is this because they understand a kickboxing pose, but not a CLF POSTURE is it foriegn to them until they understand the art and skill ???
i have to say though it is not just in western society i have seen some pretty average fighting even many years in asian society, it comes down to understand of skill, and not falling back on primitive intent.
i have always believed you kick when you have to and punch when you need to, the hands and feet follow each other not only in step but in placement, so when an oppertunity arises the smarter player uses the skill best suited.
to my understanding ( some would say none hahaha ) both leg and hand must look/feel/connect/direct/control/stike/rebound with the same principles and in CLF the ging is tui and bin.
like the old cannon says " if you control your opponent with one hand you have the other free, to stand on two legs is practicle to only stand on one takes courage "
hope you don’t mind my 2 cents worth
In the years that I’ve spent studying and teaching martial arts, I’ve always noticed that both beginners and the naive tend to kick and punch wildly to make up for their poor structure and body mechanics. It’s only after practicing and understanding Choy Lay Fut’s body mechanics and general fighting strategy (dynamic positioning) that they begin to realize the value of solid hand techniques supported by stable and mobile footwork.
A: It is also only after practising and understanding CLF body mechanics and general fighting strategy that the beginners will begin to realize the value of solid and well placed kicks supported by stable and mobile footwork. So it takes time to be good at what you want to achieve. I am sure all your students know that.
That is why (as both Nospam and I had said), most beginner and inexperienced CLF practitioners take on a “pseudo-kickboxing” stance and execute a fighting strategy hardly similar to what is taught in the CLF curriculum (at least not the curriculum that I was taught and use). That’s what I was referring to when I mentioned over-emphasizing kicks and sacrificing structure. This does NOT mean kicks are unimportant and cannot be seamlessly incorporated into our offensive strategy. It’s not that I cannot do a lot of kicks, it’s just that it’s not necessary to.
A: Instead of de-emphasing the importance of kicks why not work more on solid stance coupled with simple basic kicks to encourage the students to do better and at the same time improving their hand techniques. That would give them more confidence to work with their whole body instead of part of them at a time. Soon or later they will know the pain of a fancy or a sloppy kick when done untimely. As you know, we start kicking right from Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui and we do them from low stance, that is the basic teaching strategy built into the primary forms. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know we should not over-emphasizing kicks and sacrifice structure, saying it in colour ink would not make any difference to your common sense message. I can say the flip side, “we should not over-emphasizing hitting with the hands and sacrificing structure” (in colour if I know how to do it) to you and make you feel like you know nothing. Playing down the role of kicking early and working mostly with the hands will only give your beginner students a false sense of security. If you know how to do a lot of kicks well, then it is even more important that you should show them how to do them properly early. They know it will take time and they will kick wildly and look like a “psudo-kickboxer” at the beginning but that should not stop them from trying and you from teaching.
As I’ve stated before, it all just boils down to kick when it’s appropriate and don’t kick when it’s not appropriate. It just so happens that Choy Lay Fut focuses more on “hand” techniques than kicking, because the “feet” are often involved in the more important task of keeping you standing, stable, and mobile. There’s nothing “high-level” about this concept, just simple common sense.
A: Simple common sense also tells us to hit with our hands when it’s appopriate and don’t hit when it is not approprate. Do we have to say, “we should not over- emphasizing the importance of the hands” to get the message across? CLF like other TCMA, focuses more on hand techniques for the beginners then move onto other parts of the body when the students want to increase their level of skills. That is where the more advanced teaching comes in and that is what I mean by “higer level”. My point is: you don’t have to play down kicking at the beginning. If you talk down any part of the body in the beginning, then you will give the student an impression that you do not think highly of that part of the body. If you want them to learn the kicks later, say so. Tell them that we should not over- emphasizing the importance of kicking will give them an impression that it is not so important after all, and that is not true as you said so yourself.
Lots of beginners look to well roundedness to mean being an expert at every game and range, while neglecting the principles and concepts of their own chosen method. I have a pretty good knowledge of leverage (and stand up grappling) from CLF, but I would be lying if I said my ground-fighting arsenal was adequate enough (from CLF alone) to successful play the ground game and submit an experienced ground fighter. However, I never willingly fight by anyone else’s preferred strategy.
A: Through out this debate, I know it is not true but I cannot help but to feel you have a low opinion of beginner students. You may be surprised to know that they would have enough common sense to know that well roundedness does not mean being an expert at every game and range (nor do they want to be such an expert), and that a teacher does not have to be an expert at ground fighting before he can teach them how to play the ground game. They also know it will take time to be good at their chosen method and that you are just a human being like them even though you are their teacher. There is no need to tell them (and us) the bloody obvious in techno colour prints!
In a fight against anyone of any method, I will fight to maintain my own preferred offensive. If I do get taken down, I would utilize what I do know of leverage or any other concept in CLF applicable to get me back on my feet to fight again. If someone kicks me, I’ll use my stance and positioning to nullify their kicks, break their posture, and open them up to my own strikes (be it kicking or punching, depending on the situation).
A: That is wonderful, bravo to you! I just fight to survive any which way I can.
To me, being well rounded means having applicable knowledge and understanding of different approaches and being able to deal with these approaches using our chosen method’s core principles and strategies. It doesn’t mean simply “knowing” how to punch, kick, and grapple.
A: Then teach your students these wonderful core principles and strategies. I am just happy enough to know how to punch, kick and grapple well. That is enough for me (including this debate)!
JosephX
no need to get upset
Joseph X
No need in getting upset. If you look back at the beginning of this discussion, you will see that I had merely stated a point, to which you then disagreed with, and I did my best through words to defend my position. I wasn’t trying to convert you to my way of doing things, as I don’t think you were trying to convert me. I was merely trying to state my ideas and opinions clearly while emphasizing my main points. On this medium of the internet forum, bold and colored text were some of the ways which I thought were appropriate to emphasize my points. If the bold type and coloring offended you, I apologize.
Like I said in my first or second response to you in this thread, I’m glad you believe in what you do and I’m glad it works for you.
By the way, I do not think lowly of beginners or anybody else, I just feel there are those who are naïve and misinformed. I apologize if I came off as insulting to beginners.
Try to relax, you might be right and I might be wrong on this point, but you’re not really proving your point any by being all upset. Besides, is being right or wrong really the issue here? I thought we were all here just to share ideas and to occasionally challenge each other’s theories to maybe come up with a better one.
Beancurd,
One of the reasons why there are so many average fights is because some teachers for commercial reasons get their students to fight in tournaments too early. Instead of training them in the basic skills for a number of years to produce a solid foundation of footwork, kicks and punches, they talked about fighting strategies and core principles and get the students to produce quick results by concentrating on one aspect of the art. The result is a three-months specialist with a half dozen of boxing or kick boxing techniques whose aim is to stay upright at all cost to last the rounds. At least they will have a chance to win on points and bring home the trophies.
They have these progressive learning programs where the students can get through a level every 2-3 months and a colour sash every 9-12 months to give them a false sense of progress. It is how they look and how they talk that counts and anything that is too difficult and takes time to perfect they will de-emphasis or avoid. They took on the trappings of the most popular martial arts and dress their progressive curriculum in the traditional names. They have wonderful websites and present themselves as good looking and highly qualified professional trainers. It is the case of selling the same chocolate wrappers with nothing resembling chocolates in them.
I agree with you, this not only happening in the west, but it happens in China (you should check out the latest Shaolin Temple schools) and other parts of SE Asia as well. Sadly, no ones wants to do it the hard way any more.
JosephX
JosephX,
If the content in your post to beancurd was directed at me and my family’s organization, than I am sad to see that’s the way you feel. I’m sorry if I offended you with my attempts to defend my point of view, but I don’t think insulting me or my family’s organization is a good way to promote brotherhood within our CLF community.
Neither my father nor myself teach martial arts for a living, we just try to do the best we can to honor those who were kind enough to offer us knowledge. The progression system that we are employing is new, in place primarily because our student base has grown and we wished to have a more concrete syllabus for newcomers to follow. If you have a better idea on how to handle this problem, I wish you would suggest one instead of insulting our methods and my family’s organization.
I can’t say that I’m not a little disappointed in the way this has gone, but I wish you the best of luck in what you do. However, I ask with all sincerity, that you do not insult my family simply because you were upset over the tone of our debate. If you have any concerns I welcome you contact me personally. Thank you.
Take Care,
JosephX,
That is unfortunantely very true, to many teachers r selling out & r to scared to teach the old school way. Because they know 60 to 70% maybe more of students r to lazy, impatient & instead of cocentrating on the basics & what there on they r thinking about the next set & getting that shiny sash. The teachers know if they hold them back or dont show them flashy moves they will leave & take their $$$'s with them. So most sifus let their students pass, as long as they can remember a form. They dont even show them the applications & what there 4. Thats why KF’s got a bad name to other m artists. Whats the saying flowery fists, no wonder.
If i was a teacher i would rather teach from my backyard or the local park & have 2, 3 dedicated students rather than have 20, 30 ****ty students & a big school. (****ty students, ****ty teacher)
Anyway have any of u guys heard of a clf jong called the Leg Dummy -Geuk Jong? if so whats it look like & it focus on?
Also the hand/leg set called Continuous Dual Kicking Form- Yin Yeung Teui Lin Wan?
A lot of CLF and, really, TCMA people in general, seem to be fighting more with kickboxing because in their schools a lot of them are simply being taught kickboxing in addition to their kung fu. Not just in America, but it seems like almost everywhere a popular trend is to do the forms, then spar like TKD, Muay Thai, or kickboxing. A CLF brother if mine was fighting in a major kung fu tournament and when he sat down after winning a bout, another CLF guy told him, “You’re actually using the Choy Lee Fut. I do Choy Lee Fut, too.” Then my school brother asked him, “So why don’t you use it?” The other guy said, “We practice CLF buy we train to use Muay Thai because we can learn to use it faster and more easily.” I think that says everything about why some schools don’t take the time.
I will say that when you’re at a distance it really isn’t necessary to hold a particular low stance when mobility is the key. Although bouncing around like Muhammad Ali, IMO, would have a negative effect. Shifting is quicker, smoother, and more stable for someone using kung fu principles.
Kicks are necessary, as are hands. You might say, “Don’t punch with a boxer, don’t kick with a kicker.” If you only use hands and come up against a hand specialist that can frustrate your own hand skills, you need legs as a strong backup to break up his concentration and base. Just as you wouldn’t really want to stand at long range trading kicks with a top-notch “superkicker,” but use your bridging the gap, hands, leg checks/low kicks, etc., to your advantage.
Jim
You do know that everyone is for the greatest part agreeing with one another.
A tad heavy on somantics at this pont, which is nice to hear, as we are now talking specifics of our respective styles..lineages..and personal preferences and experiences. This is how learning can occur through sharing.
If you only use hands and come up against a hand specialist that can frustrate your own hand skills, you need legs as a strong backup to break up his concentration and base.
A good hand stylist will not allow kicks to frustrate his/her skill 
Please, take no affront. I’m serious when I say this.
At one tournament I was at, a fellow stylist who was a student of my teacher’s gung fu brother was fighting a Hapkido. Our style is quite aggressive and negates 95% of kicks. The Hapkido was very quickk and capable and did manage to move with my fellow stylist quite well by moving backwards and utilizing jumping, spinning crescent kicks. That is the most impressed I have ever been from a ‘kicker’ stylist. The problem for the Hapkido is that the power of his kicks are predetermined at a certain distance. Plus he was on one leg while my fellow stylist was on two and dogg’n him relentlessly. Guess who had the upper leg..uhm..hand.
This is no flame on Hapkido, merely an example- of whcih I’m sure we all have plenty to illustrate our various points. I would like to comment that I have 100% faith in my style and in most practitioners in my style, from 3rd month novice to beyond. It’s really that good 
hahaha
Seriously. it gets down to the skill level of the MAist.
Kickers can kick well as they spend their time learning that style. I see the problem as being one of strategy vs ability. And that speaks towards any and all styles. A well timed spinning back kick will stop dead an aggressor in his tracks. For me, the spinning back (whether jumping or fromt he grnd) kick is an amzing tool (on par with the upper cut or short arm pau choi), if it is used when it should be used. And that is the problem I see with kicks. They are taught to be thrown too often and indescriminately. A well trained (including strategy) MAist is just that, a well trained MAist- no matter the style.
The debate is in your court.
nospam.
Exactly. Spinning back kick is the shiznit! When properly set up of course. Especially if you combine it with dot choy (spinning backfist).
premier
Originally posted by straightblast5
[B]JosephX,
If the content in your post to beancurd was directed at me and my family’s organization, than I am sad to see that’s the way you feel. I’m sorry if I offended you with my attempts to defend my point of view, but I don’t think insulting me or my family’s organization is a good way to promote brotherhood within our CLF community.
Neither my father nor myself teach martial arts for a living, we just try to do the best we can to honor those who were kind enough to offer us knowledge. The progression system that we are employing is new, in place primarily because our student base has grown and we wished to have a more concrete syllabus for newcomers to follow. If you have a better idea on how to handle this problem, I wish you would suggest one instead of insulting our methods and my family’s organization.
I can’t say that I’m not a little disappointed in the way this has gone, but I wish you the best of luck in what you do. However, I ask with all sincerity, that you do not insult my family simply because you were upset over the tone of our debate. If you have any concerns I welcome you contact me personally. Thank you.
Take Care,
Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association [/B]
Phil,
I am surprised that you are so egocentric and have such low self-esteem of yourself and your father to think I am talking about you!
Sorry my friend, but the world do not evolve just around you and I was not thinking of you or your family organisation at all. I was just talking to beancurd about the reasons for the general sad decline in the standard of CMA in the world these days.
I keep trying to get out of this debate because we are wasting our time talking about the little differences between us. Did you not hear that I said I have enough? Why keep dragging me back into it with your silly comments like this one? What can I say? If you want me to say sorry then I will, for the sake of peace, for something I have not done.
I hope the next time I turn on the computer you will have moved onto something more interesting other than yourself and I say this not with anger but as an older brother giving you a piece of advice. There is no need for me to contact you privately, it will only feul your ego, I am afraid.
You take care of yourself too.
JosephX
I know it’s none of my business, but…
…having read Phil’s website I also thought you were talking about his father’s school. Well. I guess it was just a sheer coincidence.
Anyway. You’re both very knowledgeable people. It’s a shame you’re willing to argue about something like this and ever worse, get personal. You were actually having very interesting conversation there for a while.
premier
Premier,
Yes, it is none of your business, but if you want to know I was thinking of other much bigger and more commercially successful schools and they are not just CLF and WC schools. What I said was a general profile of a commercial set up these days – give the students what they want, keep it simple and easy, change the program to suit whatever is popular at the time, talk and look professional, websites and promotions, give them trophies and sashes and levels so they will keep coming back and pay their fees. I don’t blame these guys, they have to eat and pay the rents like the rest of us.
Yes, it is a shame we argue like that. I have no intention of carrying on and get personal. But **** happens.
As nospam said it earlier: “You do know that everyone is for the greatest part agreeing with one another”. Shall we leave at that?
JosephX
Joseph
OK. I believe you. Sorry about the intervention.
premier
phil
i hope this discussion don’t take away from this forum , your opinions are always great for me and give a lot of knoledge .
extrajoseph
i respct you a lot , you know a lot of things about choy lay fut and hard trainning , but maybe you was too much extremist in your answers . maybe you are right and the actual system sucks ,. but inside all this merchandasing and promotions there is a lot of people that are beneficied . i’d learn forms of choy lay fut from videos and i know well that this is not the way , but thanks those videos i’d making connected whit a great system . i am planning travel to florida next year for correct that forms . i know this is not the better way , but i live in a country without chinese masters . so , this is my better option . and that become with this promotion system you atttacked . and the prize in tournaments and sashes , maybe in the old days people only fight for revolution but today that colour sahes can really help kids with problems . i’d see this in my school .
maybe you know a lot of things , but if you attack a system , you attack also the people inside the system . and this not help
maybe youy think this is not my business , but i am a part of this open forum and because i don’t attacking you , i tell you only , that even when you can be right in your posture , you have to be careful to not attack others points of view .
you are a great treasure for ous in this forum . thas is my opinion . i don’t want you think i am attackin you . is only my point of view .
Nospam:
No offense taken. You make very good points regarding practicality of hands to kicks. In fact, I myself like more hands than kicks. The thing is, when most people think of using their legs as weapons, the first thing to come to mind is a TKD person throwing multiple and spinning long-range kicks. CLF has some kicks under such description, but kicks and leg techniques also include ankle hooks, leg sweeps (not necessarily “iron broom,” but sweeps in conjunction with hands/strikes), leg checks, oblique crossover kicks to the legs, stomps/presses onto the opponent’s foot, and etc. Such more subtle leg skills work in conjunction with the hands. Also some can be disguised as stepping.
Regardless, like virtually all TCMA systems, CLF emphasizes a higher ratio of hand skills than kicking techniques.
Jim
ok, for the love of me i have just come back to this thread and now it has all gone to waste, if my two cents has caused this then i want it back ;-).
phil i have read xtrajosephs reply to me and unless there is something "quiet " between you two, i don’t and cannot see where your retort to him as come from.
i will make this clear, sometime ago joseph and i had words on something that is of no importance here, a differing of opinion, however that being said, we have spoken since and it has been comfortable.
i would say to some extent we( joseph and i ) are from similiar age and i mean skill based not personal but if anyone asks i am the younger hahaha.
joseph i see has read between the line on what i was hinting too and has come in on this, i see his reply as no afront to your family or skill, what he has said is very true and he spoke more words than i intended to do on the matter of skill deterioration, as a whole.
i came into this thread because of what was being said, i had enjoyed it and thought i would contribute and continue to enjoy, now sadly this has like many just gone to the rubbish heap.